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Ditching an RV

Mconner7

Mconner7

Well Known Member
I have done a lot of over water in singles. My last 10 years was in a Grumman Tiger which has a lot in common with our RV?s when it comes to egress after a ditching. I have developed the theory that the almost immediate nose over is the greatest risk.

I have decided that, just before touchdown, to stick one wingtip in the water to induce a cartwheel as opposed to the hard inverted stop. I would hope that the energy could be dissipated by a wingtip, nose, other wingtip impact. It may still invert but hopefully not with the crushing impact directly to the canopy.

Now that I fly a -10, I wonder if opening/jettisoning a door prior to touchdown makes sense or would you keep the door on to add strength to the cabin?
 
Mconner7 said:
I have done a lot of over water in singles. My last 10 years was in a Grumman Tiger which has a lot in common with our RV’s when it comes to egress after a ditching. I have developed the theory that the almost immediate nose over is the greatest risk.

I have decided that, just before touchdown, to stick one wingtip in the water to induce a cartwheel as opposed to the hard inverted stop. I would hope that the energy could be dissipated by a wingtip, nose, other wingtip impact. It may still invert but hopefully not with the crushing impact directly to the canopy.

Now that I fly a -10, I wonder if opening/jettisoning a door prior to touchdown makes sense or would you keep the door on to add strength to the cabin?
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Have no idea if open doors would be a benefit or a liability in this situation. Upside would be that you won't have the problem of opening the doors due to the water pressure. Downside would be your head making contact with water at 60 mph, which could cause incapacitation. I am pretty confident that the doors add no structural support to the aircraft.
 
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Ditching

However you do it, it is still going to exert considerable forces upon both you and the airframe. If possible, it is probably a good idea to jettison the door or canopy. From my Navy training, I know that a big problem is that once the aircraft or even part of the cockpit is underwater, it will be very difficult, or impossible to open doors or canopy due to the water pressure. The only thing that you can do then, is to wait until the cockpit has filled with water then open the door or canopy. You are then faced with a couple of difficulties. Once the cockpit is full of water it is more difficult to breath, and in any event this presupposes that the canopy is not jammed firmly closed due to airframe distortion. The bottom line is that ditching is a somewhat iffy thing.

If I ever manage to counter domestic opposition, and fly my RV8 Trans Atlantic, I will be able to jettison my canopy.

Having said all this.....it is much more relaxing to think happy thoughts.
Brent Owen
 
I think a cartwheel is a bad idea. Your restraint system is designed for longitudinal loadsnot centrifugal ones. BWTHDIK
 
flyinga said:
I think a cartwheel is a bad idea. Your restraint system is designed for longitudinal loadsnot centrifugal ones. BWTHDIK
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True. However, you and your passenger are about as close to the C-G as you can get... Rotation will be around the C-G and likely won't incur much, if any, centrifugal forces.

After touching the wingtip to start the rotation, the next hit will be the nose. There will be a longitudinal force no different than hitting straight on, but also a varying lateral force due to the deceleration.

I think the bigger concern is whether you chose to hit your head on the side of the canopy during that turn, or your passenger's... Carry a pillow to hold up there, maybe?

There are a lot of factors to consider. Search for ditching here on VAF, there have been many threads on the topic in the past. I tend to agree with the cartwheel suggestion, personally. I'd hope to drag the tailwheel in the water for "some" amount of time first, and then try to roll a wingtip in. The wetted tail may slow the start of the rotation somewhat.
 
Some years ago a -10 lost a door in flight (It wasn't latched properly and is the reason Van's came out with a service bulletin on the door).

The door hit the HS, twisting the tail cone and damaging the HS. I can't remember if it compromised the elevator or not. (The pictures were taken down, shortly after they were posted.)

I would recommend going straight in and exiting the plane as quickly as possible!
 
Consider the ?cartwheel? rotation. It will be around the center of gravity, but the wingtip in the water is essentially fixed compared to the rest of the plane, so it will be the new system center of gravity. Watching all the WWII film on ditching planes putting a wingtip in the water would be my last choice.

For an RV-10 I would always assume a jettisoned door will hit the tail and take away whatever bit of control left to keep the nose from diving into the water. Assume the doors will be shut and jammed so be ready to break the glass to get out. Something else to practice on before you need do it.

One other consideration, if you do survive the ditching will you survive the water exposure. For flying over the North Atlantic odds are you will not unless you have amazing survival equipment and you have trained on using it all someplace. If not, just assume there is no Plan B if you have to ditch.

Carl
 
I intend to fly to Oshkosh this year from Europe in my RV-8. I read a lot about ditching and sea survival and could fill pages writing about.
My wings and may be the front baggage hold will be filled with foam called Plastazote LD24 which will not expand much at altitude and not absorb water. I figured about 22 lbs is more than enough to keep the airplane afloat, may be a little more to be on the safe side and also considering losing a filled wing tip. I assume the airplane will flip over and contact with water is violent. If I hit the frame with my head I might get unconscious for a while and drown. That?s why I will wear a helmet over water. Of course I carry all sorts of emergency equipment incl. four devices to send Mayday. One thing I?m still thinking about is some kind of breathing device for may be two minutes.
 
I hope anyone reading this thread will keep in mind that everything posted here is for the most part speculation.

My personal position is that there is no way I would purposely subject myself to a high speed direct impact with water, and there is no way I would purposefully risk inducing lateral acceleration forces (sitting near the center of rotation is still not the same as sitting on it. I believe it would still be a very violent ride .

BTW, the doors on the RV-10 do add some structural strength to the cabin top.
Is it significant? No. But in a situation that has many unknowns, every little bit helps. I personally think it is a moot point because I believe having protection from the water impact is far more important than having the door already open.... If you have been knocked / shocked silly from the impact, having the door already gone may be of little value.
 
SuperCubDriver said:
I intend to fly to Oshkosh this year from Europe in my RV-8. I read a lot about ditching and sea survival and could fill pages writing about.
My wings and may be the front baggage hold will be filled with foam called Plastazote LD24 which will not expand much at altitude and not absorb water. I figured about 22 lbs is more than enough to keep the airplane afloat, may be a little more to be on the safe side and also considering losing a filled wing tip. I assume the airplane will flip over and contact with water is violent. If I hit the frame with my head I might get unconscious for a while and drown. That?s why I will wear a helmet over water. Of course I carry all sorts of emergency equipment incl. four devices to send Mayday. One thing I?m still thinking about is some kind of breathing device for may be two minutes.
Click to expand...

Spare Air makes this in the link below. It is what we used in the helicopters in the USAF. It is lightweight, small and gives 2-3 minutes of air. There are other models they make for Scuba but this seems to be the smalles.

http://www.heed3.com/
 
Door on or off

I cannot imagine opening the door of the -10 while inverted in water or submerged. They are very large and the load against moving them even after the cabin is flooded would be enormous. I think I will take my chance with the tail as I would be at a very slow speed when opening the doors. With the doors gone, it might be safer to take the impact strait on the windshield.

Some Grumman folks carry split PVC to put on the rails of the slider canopy to prevent it slamming shut at touchdown. Not sure what to do with a tip up....

As for scuba gear, I seriously doubt you would find your regulator or escape bottle after the rapid deceleration. If you are not wearing your flotation device prior to feet wet, leave it a home, you will never don it in time.

The things we ponder when we have a wet footprint......
 
Mconner7 said:
I cannot imagine opening the door of the -10 while inverted in water or submerged. They are very large and the load against moving them even after the cabin is flooded would be enormous. I think I will take my chance with the tail as I would be at a very slow speed when opening the doors. With the doors gone, it might be safer to take the impact strait on the windshield.

Some Grumman folks carry split PVC to put on the rails of the slider canopy to prevent it slamming shut at touchdown. Not sure what to do with a tip up....

As for scuba gear, I seriously doubt you would find your regulator or escape bottle after the rapid deceleration. If you are not wearing your flotation device prior to feet wet, leave it a home, you will never don it in time.

The things we ponder when we have a wet footprint......
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On a -10, I would probably open the doors just before touchdown / contact with the water.

A tip-up is easy, open it in flight, it will float open a few inches and on impact it will flip open, pulling the struts apart. At least for the -6, 7, and 9. I'm not sure how that would play out in the -14 with its different tip-up mechanism.

The slider would be my biggest concern.
 
Ditching

Ditching and in flight fire are two of my fears. Both give me the willies big time. We wear our life jackets, (manual inflate) and a plb on my strap anytime over big water. We do practice the procedure and read all the real life stories we can but when you see vids of the rvs flipping hitting the water, or think about the real life situation of not only flipping but tipping open canopy while upside down, possibly injured and helping a loved one exit and then bobbing in water for hours hoping nothing grey with teeth chomps my legs off... :) . Uggh. What a horribly unpleasant thought but..good to talk about and plan for. Lets hope for all, some of this chat keeps us top of our game . flying over water, whether crossing lake michigan to kosh, flying to bahamas out islands etc is too much fun to not do, but having a plan for the what if certainly is wise.
 
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How about a parachute? and flotation gear? It seems like the RV-10 would be one of the easiest to bail out of once the door is gone. Don't have to worry about the crash then, just survival in the water.

I feel the same way about post-crash fire, I would much rather view it "from above". Besides, I can use the smoke from the fire to determine wind direction for landing :)
 
A hundred years ago I used to fly SE fixed gear planes across bodies of water too far away from land to glide to, wind the time fwd by 30 years I would NEVER do that again, that's my insurance! :) now it's multi engine jet at 47000'....phew!
Perhaps someone could come up with an u/ that could be jettisoned of pivot backwards? Either way there's a lot of brave pilots out there for sure!
 
N941WR said:
A tip-up is easy, open it in flight, it will float open a few inches and on impact it will flip open, pulling the struts apart. At least for the -6, 7, and 9. I'm not sure how that would play out in the -14 with its different tip-up mechanism.
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This, too, is theoretical, as I don't think it's been tried. When you touch the water, whether it will flip open or slam shut will depend on whether the impact vector acting on the canopy is ahead of or behind the hinge point at the front. I don't think any of us can say for sure where it'll be.

Maybe it would be best to force the nose into the water after the tail touches, starting a flip-over that may still have some direction-of-flight momentum that would let the water catch the canopy and pull it open? It's all very theoretical.
 
Snowflake said:
This, too, is theoretical, as I don't think it's been tried. When you touch the water, whether it will flip open or slam shut will depend on whether the impact vector acting on the canopy is ahead of or behind the hinge point at the front. I don't think any of us can say for sure where it'll be.

Maybe it would be best to force the nose into the water after the tail touches, starting a flip-over that may still have some direction-of-flight momentum that would let the water catch the canopy and pull it open? It's all very theoretical.
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Yes, it is very "theoretical" but when you figure that the canopy will be "floating" open a few inches, with a sudden deacceleration that will come a water landing, regardless if you can get lucky and get the tail in the water before the mains, I'm pretty sure it will flip open.

Even if the tip-up doesn't flip forward, it might have less a chance of jamming closed, like a slider. Again, all "theoretical" and "conjecture". Until someone ditches one of each, we won't really know.

Probably my biggest fear is flipping one upside down in a shallow river or close to shore where the plane flips over trapping me inside.

I'll tell you what, give it a try and report back.

I have a good friend who ditched a Cherokee and based on his experience, I suspect the RV will react the same way. In his case, it was a violent forward vector impact. He said he got out immediately and looked back and the Cherokee was floating tail up, nose down. He went on to say that it didn't take long for it to slide completely under the water.

It was enough that when he built his -9A, he built it as a tip-up with the idea that the tip-up will be easier to get out of.
 
How about this?????

I've got an 8, so I've got a slider. Sliders, tip ups, tilt sideways----etc etc

How about this. I watched the video of that 2 ship RV mid air collision on the Italian coast about a year ago. The guy who survived did an absolutely perfect job of 3 pointing his RV on the shoreline. AND HE STILL FLIPPED!!:mad:

I ran it in slow motion several times, the pilot had the tail low--it couldn't be more perfect. Whatdayall think of this idea?? You glide in above the water, 10 feet of altitude, fully stall the beast, and hopefully just drop vertically that last 10 feet into the water----and therefore hopefully not flip on your back.
 
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I'm not sure a stall can be done with little or no remaining forward speed.

Maybe a hammerhead or tail-slide, but now you're breaking your neck on impact, I would think.
 
Cessnas POH for the 150/152/172 don't want you flaring over the water when ditching, they want a 300 fpm decent into the water. Perhaps to "bellyflop" in and prevent the gear from levering the plane nose over? Might work for RV's?
 
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G-force said:
Cessnas POH for the 150/152/172 don't want you flaring over the water when ditching, they want a 300 fps decent into the water. Perhaps to "bellyflop" in and prevent the gear from levering the plane nose over? Might work for RV's?
Click to expand...

I’m calculating a 204 mph vertical component from that procedure. Slightly above the VNE. :D

Yeah FPM.. I know :)
 
donaziza said:
I ran it in slow motion several times, the pilot had the tail low--it couldn't be more perfect. Whatdayall think of this idea?? You glide in above the water, 10 feet of altitude, fully stall the beast, and hopefully just drop vertically that last 10 feet into the water----and therefore hopefully not flip on your back.
Click to expand...

What's your stall speed? That's forward speed, over the ground... So you'll still have significant forward momentum when stalled. It's still not a horrible idea, the rule when crashing into anything is to hit it as slowly as you can... The forces go up with the square of the speed so slower is always better.

I think the challenge is to balance distance from shore (to make it easy for rescuers on the beach) and depth of water (so you have time to get out while it's inverted and before it settles on the bottom).

Better yet: Roll inverted, and fly it down to an inverted stall with the vertical stab in the water... Then you'll flip upright! :p
 
Better yet: Roll inverted, and fly it down to an inverted stall with the vertical stab in the water... Then you'll flip upright! :p[/QUOTE]

HA!!:rolleyes: I've heard that one before.

Now all I've gotta do is at the last second---move the vertical stab forward, quickly scotch tape on some wheel things, and Voila!! Everything will work out Ok, work out Ok, work----------:D:D:D
 
An anecdote, and a couple risk related thoughts

I've crossed Lake Michigan a number of times from Buffalo to OSH. A few time in a FG Cardinal, once in a Legend Cub on floats, once in my second owner RV-9A.

Early on I was crossing east to west at 6500 and heard a call from N40RC. Some might recognize that as the late Richard Collins of Flying Mag in his pressurized Cessna 210. He was at 12k and was asking ATC for 18k for the lake crossing.

The narrowest crossing is about 63sm. In the RV going 170mph the shore to shore time would be about 25 min. Add in maybe 12k of altitude and your out of range glide to shore time would be minimal. Not all risk is removed of course, even in July the Lake is cold. Best to be "in the system" when crossing so that rescue can be alerted before splash down. Cross in the morning, I'd hate to "land" in the lake at sunset.
Some folks I know study the ferry schedule and fly at a time and route where the ferry will be passing.

Regardless, one can simply circle the lake, north or south. In most cases that would force an extra fuel stop. Of course , it's likely that take off and landing are the highest risk portions of flying and by going around the lake you've added that that extra exposure. Maybe there's someone good with stats on this board who has the time and ability to calculate the relative risks.

PS I WEAR a manually inflatable vest.

Carl
 
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Dreamin9 said:
I've crossed Lake Michigan a number of times from Buffalo to OSH. A few time in a FG Cardinal, once in a Legend Cub on floats, once in my second owner RV-9A.

Early on I was crossing east to west at 6500 and heard a call from N40RC. Some might recognize that as the late Richard Collins of Flying Mag in his pressurized Cessna 210. He was at 12k and was asking ATC for 18k for the lake crossing.

The narrowest crossing is about 63sm. In the RV going 170mph the shore to shore time would be about 25 min. Add in maybe 12k of altitude and your out of range glide to shore time would be minimal. Not all risk is removed of course, even in July the Lake is cold. Best to be "in the system" when crossing so that rescue can be alerted before splash down. Cross in the morning, I'd hate to "land" in the lake at sunset.
Some folks I know study the ferry schedule and fly at a time and route where the ferry will be passing.

Regardless, one can simply circle the lake, north or south. In most cases that would force an extra fuel stop. Of course , it's likely that take off and landing are the highest risk portions of flying and by going around the lake you've added that that extra exposure. Maybe there's someone good with stats on this board who has the time and ability to calculate the relative risks.

PS I WEAR a manually inflatable vest.

Carl
Click to expand...
Having grown up and learning to fly in Michigan, I was taught to simply never fly over the lakes. Two reasons we're given, if you have an engine failure and ditch in the water, you will die from hypothermia. Second, your horizon can disappear in the right weather conditions, leading to vertigo. (I experienced this once when flying to Harbor Springs at night and missing the airport on the edge of Lake Michigan. After flying out over the lake where there were no lights below or stars above, it was eerie!)
 
thinking about risk

Dreamin9 said:
...Regardless, one can simply circle the lake, north or south. In most cases that would force an extra fuel stop. Of course , it's likely that take off and landing are the highest risk portions of flying and by going around the lake you've added that that extra exposure. Maybe there's someone good with stats on this board who has the time and ability to calculate the relative risks. ...
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Carl, based on the reading I've done on risk in my various lives, this is the right way to think about it. We often do things to mitigate one risk while greatly increasing risk in another area. Humans are not very good at numbers, and our ability to compare risks is terrible. We're worried about being killed by terrorists but are killing ourselves by drinking a liter of coke per day. We're worried about an airliner crashing so instead we drive to see grandma during the holidays.

I think the good news about ditching is that it seems to be a very rare event, but that could be only because so many of us fear a negative outcome that we avoid long overwater flights. :D
 
I live , and learned how to fly, in the Great State of Maine, where a flying friend of mine from North Dakota, described as, "Nothin' but trees, rocks and water."

I never gave it much of a thought, although the general consensus was "aim for the trees if you have a choice..."

A few years back I flew out to visit a friend in Iowa. He's an incredibly accomplished pilot, owns an F-1 Rocket (among other a/c) and frequents this site. He's fond of singing a song called "House of Sin." anyway, when we arrive he asked me my route of flight, and I told him that we came direct across Lake Michigan. He stopped in his tracks and commented, "You must clank when you walk. I'd never do THAT in a single engine airplane."

THAT got my attention.

He also joked that another mutual friend (even more accomplished if you can believe it..you've heard of him...big yellow biplane) wouldn't cross a river unless he could find a bridge.

RV's are fast. I go around (most of the time).
 
I did not read the whole thread or know the -10 well, so forgive. If you land upright and the aircraft is floating you will likely be able to open the door and get out. If you flip (most likely) you may not be able to get the door open, until the cabin fills and equalizes the pressure.

This is a scary thought, even during the day time. There is a story on the forum of a member ditching in ocean between Hawaiian islands. Forgot details and model but not a -10.

My suggestions are (pick one or more):

  • Fly at all times with gliding of land
  • Have something to break the Plexi,
  • Modify the door to jettison in fight, or
  • Portable breather, not to drown while the plane sinks and pressure equalizes allowing the door to be opened. The hydro boat racers all have portable O2.
 
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Feeling Lucky?

rv8ch said:
Carl, based on the reading I've done on risk in my various lives, this is the right way to think about it. We often do things to mitigate one risk while greatly increasing risk in another area. Humans are not very good at numbers, and our ability to compare risks is terrible. We're worried about being killed by terrorists but are killing ourselves by drinking a liter of coke per day. We're worried about an airliner crashing so instead we drive to see grandma during the holidays.

I think the good news about ditching is that it seems to be a very rare event, but that could be only because so many of us fear a negative outcome that we avoid long overwater flights. :D
Click to expand...

Overall I can't argue with the big picture of the odds. However..

IF the engine has quit and the H2O is inevitable, you might as well bail out and open your parachute from enough altitude as required. Then hit your quick release risers before inflating your Mae West and inflating your life raft.

Not wearing a parachute? Better get and maintain some underwater egress training.
Or else install R44 skid type inflatable floatation cells on your RV.

A lot of seasoned sea plane pilots will not fly across lake superior or any of the great lakes, even in aircraft that can land and float on water.
Big water = BIG waves
Even if the ditching all goes flawlessly and you are an olympic class swimmer, the hypothermia will finish most humans in short order.

But yes, the odds of the engine failing are low.

There was recently (2011) an example of a pilot that did survive for over 17 hours in Lake Huron after doing almost every possible wrong thing to survive.
https://youtu.be/zDQT5puGPX8
Pure mental will and determination to stay alive for his family kept him swimming beyond known and accepted limits of endurance.
 
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I USE to want to fly my RV to the Bahamas..... that is until I saw the video of the two RVs that suffered a mid-air low over a beach someplace. IIRC one of them went in on the nose. The other guy appeared to do everything right including opening his canopy.... slider. Despite being pretty slow when he hit the water he instantly flipped. Many folks on the beach rushed out and I think he was fine.

After that video it got me to thinking. I've come to the conclusion that an RV will flip over in the water.... just my thinking. I have a tip up and unless the canopy fractured on impact, I'd bet it would serve as a death trap. With the weight of the aircraft now bearing down on the tip up canopy there would be no way to get out until the pressure equalizes. Now imagine this. You're out over some water someplace with any helping hands far away... trapped inside an inverted airplane that you can't exit until a substantial amount of water comes in. It's going to go down engine first as air finds exit points out the tail area. I believe I'd end up well under water before being able to get out. And BTW, I don't think having a tool to break the canopy would solve this problem. It boils down to the whole risk management thing and it's just more risk than I'm willing to accept.

A friend of mine suggested I keep a magazine onboard to read until I'd be able to exit! I decided to pass on the Bahamas, there are plenty of places right here in the country to see.
 
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Be prepared...

Last time I counted I had crossed the Pacific 12 times and the Atlantic twice that amount, all in a single engine Jet (F16) and mostly over very cold water (icebergs notwithstanding) enroute to a very bad part of the world doing some fairly risky flying. My friends and I often joked about the risks, but it’s part of it, pure and simple.
Acceptable Inherent Risk. It’s is part of life, especially flying airplanes, much less in a combat environment. Thats why I believe you should always be prepared for any contingency, life, death or otherwise.

That said, a few years ago I met an RV4 driver at Oshkosh and ended up sharing our engine failure stories. His engine failure occurred over Lake Michigan. After several unsuccessful restart attempts and reaching 1000’ AWL he focused on ditching. He set up his approach parallel to the shoreline into prevailing winds in sight of nearby boats at best glide speed until 500’ where he set full flaps and prepared for water impact. Tightened harness, fuel/master off. He made a full stall landing onto the water and did not flip over. He raised the canopy and egressed onto the wing. He told me he thought of swimming to an approaching boat but the airplane stayed afloat. Eventually it did sink while being towed to shore. Moral of the story, a survivable ditching done right. Why? He was prepared.

On any of my RV overwater flying, I have a plan for engine failure in open ocean, near shore, rough or smooth water. In addition to regular survival items I carry in my pockets a small marine VHF, sea dye and mirror.
For a water landing a full stall, full aft stick tailwheel first “splashdown” should work better than a flying speed touchdown as flipping over is less a potential with less forward momentum. Swells should be landed parallel just like in a seaplane. Also, know where your canopy breaker is as opening the canopy underwater upside down and inflating your LPUs could be the difference between life and drowning. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
BTW, a forced landing in trees, mountains or urban areas poorly executed can have just as catastrophic results as water. Again, have a plan.

As the old saying goes, flying isn’t inherently dangerous,, but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

V/R
Smokey

PS: If you’re not sure of your final contingency, contact me off line, I have a friend in high places.:)
 
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smokyray said:
Last time I counted I had crossed the Pacific 12 times and the Atlantic twice that amount, all in a single engine Jet (F16) and mostly over very cold water (icebergs notwithstanding) enroute to a very bad part of the world doing some fairly risky flying. My friends and I often joked about the risks, but it?s part of it, pure and simple.
Acceptable Inherent Risk. It?s is part of life, especially flying airplanes, much less in a combat environment. Thats why I believe you should always be prepared for any contingency, life, death or otherwise.

That said, a few years ago I met an RV4 driver at Oshkosh and ended up sharing our engine failure stories. His engine failure occurred over Lake Michigan. After several unsuccessful restart attempts and reaching 1000? AWL he focused on ditching. He set up his approach parallel to the shoreline into prevailing winds in sight of nearby boats at best glide speed until 500? where he set full flaps and prepared for water impact. Tightened harness, fuel/master off. He made a full stall landing onto the water and did not flip over. He raised the canopy and egressed onto the wing. He told me he thought of swimming to an approaching boat but the airplane stayed afloat. Eventually it did sink while being towed to shore. Moral of the story, a survivable ditching done right. Why? He was prepared.

On any of my RV overwater flying, I have a plan for engine failure in open ocean, near shore, rough or smooth water. In addition to regular survival items I carry in my pockets a small marine VHF, sea dye and mirror.
For a water landing a full stall, full aft stick tailwheel first ?splashdown? should work better than a flying speed touchdown as flipping over is less a potential with less forward momentum. Swells should be landed parallel just like in a seaplane. Also, know where your canopy breaker is as opening the canopy underwater upside down and inflating your LPUs could be the difference between life and drowning. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
BTW, a forced landing in trees, mountains or urban areas poorly executed can have just as catastrophic results as water. Again, have a plan.

As the old saying goes, flying isn?t inherently dangerous,, but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

V/R
Smokey

PS: If you?re not sure of your final contingency, contact me off line, I have a friend in high places.:)
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Smokey, if you were flying in the Air Force, flying over water and flying into combat was part of your job description.:eek: In a single engine fun airplane, its not. Educate me here if you would---you'd never try to water land an F 16, correct? You eject, and hope a chopper was not too far off, Navy or otherwise?? Would you guys have some sort of thermal insulating flight suit, if flying over the north atlantic??:confused::confused:

Interesting stuff
Just curious
 
And Smoky.... has anyone ever use the canopy braking tool? Seem it would not work that well because the canopy isn't glass. I wonder if it's ever been tested on an aircraft canopy and surely it has. Would be interested in the results.

And thank you sir for your service to our great nation!
 
Thanks for the video link Carl. I have to admit it works better than I thought it would. Still for me.... I think I'll skip any lengthy overwater flying. It is a manageable risk I suppose but still beyond my comfort level.
 
RV8JD said:
As you saw in the video, they were surprised it worked too, after the spring-loaded punch sold for auto glass didn't do anything to the plexiglass.

Even if one doesn't fly over water, it's a good thing to have mounted in the cockpit within easy reach, just in case.

Here is a link if anyone is looking for it:

https://www.amazon.com/Lifehammer-O...FJ1KCMDWZSB&psc=1&refRID=3WGPC5JX6FJ1KCMDWZSB
Click to expand...

Now I want to see a video upside down under water when the pilot is deciding if:

A) do I break the plexi before the cockpit fills with water.
B) do I wait until the plexi has water on both sides and I am holding a spare air regulator with one hand and trying in slow motion with the water restricted swings to crack and smash my way out?

C) Should I have jumped out before I hit the water
 
The canopy breaker may be more difficult in a frame not easier. As stated, if cockpit is full of water swinging hammer might be difficult. A powered tool like a very large center punch, with lots of mass, pneumatic (CO2 cartridge) or battery power, could be with designed, like hand held jackhammer. I have heard people recommend right angle pliers or vice grips to grab edge of broken plexiglas to enlarge opening after hole is started. This applies to flipping on land as well.

Flip or not? Taildragger or Trike? It sounds like if you make water contact at min speed, at stall, you may stay up right.

Parachute, have one and I use it for aerobatics. I suppose for overwater that might be an option. The military guys have ejection sest, training, flotation, beacon, dye marker, people flight following....

If you want to fly to the San Juan Islands near Seattle, or Catalina Island, or around the Caribbean you're going to have to fly over the water. It's just a risk you either take.
 
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i realize this is a serious potential, but how often does this happen flipping over? is there any course out there that focuses on this situation?
 
Most retractable landing gear AC can be landed at a very slight nose high attitude and normally stay upright. Some Bellanca Vikings have been reported to float for over 10 hours in the ocean as they have a cloth covered air tight wing when the drain /vent holes are on the bottom side get sealed by water. As copied from Plane and pilot: "One pilot flying a Bellanca Viking into Narsarsuaq, Greenland, ran out of fuel a mere seven miles from the airport. Sadly, he was forced to put the airplane into the fjord almost in sight of the runway. He left the wheels up and made a remarkably smooth landing, then noticed that his wood-wing airplane with empty tanks had no inclination to sink. The tanks were acting like pontoons. After the pilot was picked up by a fishing boat, the crew threw a line around the prop and, very slowly, towed the Bellanca to the airport. The pilot jumped back in, manually extended the wheels, then had a four-wheel-drive truck pull the airplane out of the water, hauled it up on the beach, repaired it and put it back into service."

Perhaps floatation wing tips on an RV's would be a neat builder option for those crossing the big water.
You certainly would not want them deploying in flight by accident.

I have no numbers regarding fixed gear AC but a high percentage flip inverted.
There have been a few reported cases of fixed gear ac and even RV's staying upright.
If there was a method to jettison the main and nose gear it would be a lot easier to stay upright.

Training.
There are dunker tank/underwater egress training courses available. A lot of oil companies with off shore drilling crews provide this as part of the job training.https://youtu.be/RSyHWuVHuzk?t=20

Then try some kayak rolling lessons starting in swimming pools with a face mask. The progress to cold water outside that is only 2 or 3 degrees above freezing. Think Ice Cream headache even if you can roll yourself quickly upright. You will do lots of wet exits before you master the roil.

RVs are fast and flying is fun. I don't mind skirting around lakes and or maintaining safe gliding distance to reach the shore.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/fear-of-dunking/#.XMZ1jC8ZPRY
 
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Seal the wings?

The story about the floating Bellanca makes me wonder. I wonder if an RV would float if one were to pro seal the wings like we do the fuel tanks. And maybe add some pro sealed compartments in the fuselage.
 
April 2, 2019 ditching and staying upright!

Here is a demonstrated technique for staying upright. Likely somewhere between difficult to impossible to repeat. At least it would be very expensive to try. It appears you need to wipe the mains off first with a good hard smack at enough airspeed to maintain flight control.

https://youtu.be/5FipWllaCl8?t=170

YMMV
 
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Just arm chair theorizing, but it seems to this public schooled brain that for an RV or similar FG aircraft, whether it flips or not, it?s going to transition to the same position. Assuming structurally intact and deep enough water, I would envision the airplane having its buoyancy in the wings and floor of the fuselage so the engine should sink down bringing the tail up out of the water, probably tipped 45 degrees or so, semi inverted, with the top of the rudder pointing back toward the water. I?m guessing that it would hold that aquatic attitude for at least several minutes until the semi sealed parts of the wing eventually fill and the carcas sinks nose first. If my theory is correct, in the case of the 10, the rear windows could be above water and if installed correctly, should be able to be kicked out relatively easy and serve as the best egress point, leaving the main doors closed to forestall losing whatever (temporary) displacement the forward fuselage provides.
 
F1R said:
Here is a demonstrated technique for staying upright. Likely somewhere between difficult to impossible to repeat. At least it would be very expensive to try. It appears you need to wipe the mains off first with a good hard smack at enough airspeed to maintain flight control.

https://youtu.be/5FipWllaCl8?t=170

YMMV
Click to expand...
Very interesting and thanks for sharing. The big variable to me is the landing gear flipping the plane. This acro plane managed to shed its gear with the first impact, and the subsequent ditching was relatively uneventful. But the behavior of the tip low ditching idea is still fairly evident with this case, even without the landing gear.
 
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Only takes a few inches of water to drown

It’s for fun!
Even in flat IL the place floods and becomes a lake. It all looks familiar until you are upside down and behind the tree line in soup, alone! Probably just enough water/muck to prevent any kind of flipped egress.

My no doubt, flawed thought is; Stick to roads, dodge wires, poles, and hope to pay for the mail boxes and clothes lines, chicken coops, but just be seen is key. Drop in near someone. IMHO

...but then again, there’s the ruptured fuel system to think about!
 
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