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Rotax Fuel Pump

M

morsesc

Active Member
I blew the old style fuel pump on take off last week (rough running engine, loss of power, high fuel flow, low fuel pressure and smell of fuel). No damage to the plane, just a big hassle and a lot of frustration trouble shooting the problem. I was able to borrow a fuel pump from a friend and the plane is now flying fine with no further issues. My question is, should I purchase the newer style pump that is being installed on the 912's? I've heard that there may be a problem of high fuel pressure with new pump but I'm thinking that the return fuel line we have to the tank may make this a non-issue.

Thanks for ideas and suggestions,

Rick.
 
Rumor Control!

There is no problems with using the new Rotax fuel pump in the RV12. There is a revision on Vans web site to show you how to install the new drain line that the new pump has.;) Good Flying!
 
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"How many hours on the pump?" Exactly 50. No warning before it failed and it failed just after lift off :eek:. After installing the borrowed pump, I have had no further problems. I think the new part number is 893-110? I'm hoping there will one for sale at Sun n Fun...

Later, Rick.
 
Page 46-18 Fuel Pump Vent line

The new fuel pump 893-110 has provision for a vent line for the diaphram chamber which looks to offer a significant safety enhancement for the fully cowled engine in the RV-12. The old pump just has a vent hole in the chamber and in the event of a leaking diaphram would probably introduce fuel into the cowling. Also I have read at least one report in this forum of the crimped diaphram cover leaking. On the new pump the specs say the cover is attached by seven screws.
There are hundreds of 912s out there running the old fuel pump with no problem, and either of these leak scenarios are likely rare, but could be a serious problem if they occur on a fully cowled engine.
Because of the obvious improvement in safety and peace of mind, I have ordered the new pump. It is on back-order :(. The pump comes in two configurations, the 893-110 does not have the fuel lines attached so you will need to cut the clamps off the old fuel lines at the pump and reinstall a new Oetiker clamp and firesleeve clamp. The 893-110 is listed at about $115 from a couple of sources, the pump with the fuel lines attached costs a lot more.
The vent line itself shown on page 46-18 rev 1,http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/revisions/RV-12/Section_46.pdf is comprised of 1/4" alum tubing under the engine and above the exhaust held in place by cushion clamps to the oil return tubes and then 1/4" fuel hose down the firewall to the vicinity of the gasolator drain. This is what it looks like fabed up and ready to install:
i-kNkh8CB-M.jpg


Tony
 
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Quick thought - -

Not sure the offer is still good - but I bought the new pump, and they gave me about 1/2 credit back when I sent the old one back. It was actually my second, and had not failed.

John Bender
 
I too bought the new pump (at half price) and installed the new Kavlico pressure sensor. I now feel comfortable at last that my fuel pressure is really there and reads correctly. Of course, once completed, my FloScan went south but they are $200 so I just turned it off.
 
Hmmmm.. I guess you guys were just lucky to get something back on your warrantee claim. I sent my old pump in and never heard a word back.

As I have said every time I have been asked - just bite the bullet and buy the new pump. Worth every penny in peace of mind.
 
Rick,

I tried to return your email twice but it keeps bouncing back with an error message. My message follows:

Dear Rick,

The new design fuel pump seems to be much superior to the old. Mine has been working fine, steady pressures, no leaks, no alarms. Plus, it has the drain so that if it should ever develop a leak the gas is vented overboard.

As I have said before, I believe Rotax should have replaced all these old pumps at their expense, but they chose not to, and refused my claim for a refund under warrantee. I recommend to everyone who asks to replace these pumps. Not a lot of money for a safer product.

John
 
Thanks John (and everyone)... I have a new pump on order. If anyone else is interested, Leading Edge Airfoils has a few in stock @ $167.00 ea. Now I guess I need to call Van's and get the parts for the fuel drain. Just when I thought I was finished building :p.

Rick.
 
Another note - -

Leading Edge has/had the program to get about 1/2 credit back. Maybe the program was limited - ASK !

John Bender
 
A look at the new fuel pump

This is a continuation of my post above, #6. I have received the pump and am posting a picture showing the configuration. Several features are pertinent.
1. Note that the pump comes with the required spacer and O-Ring, so you need not order them seperately.
2. The Rotax Illustrated Parts Catalog says to install the spacer with Loctite 5910 flange sealant. That product comes in a caulking gun size tube for about $45.00! We checked with our local Rotax certified mechanic and found that Loctite 598 can be used. This is available in a .5 oz. tube from McMaster-Carr for less than $5.
i-3SZTZdJ-M.jpg

3. The vent line and outlet line are 1/4" and the pump inlet line is 5/16" so two sizes of Oetiker clamps are needed. I think I have the correct sizes but won't know for sure until I pull off the old lines to check. Oetikers are marked with size.
4. As mentioned before, you will need to cut off the old clamps and reinstall the fuel lines and firesleeve with new clamps.
i-cRKBfqc-M.jpg

These are the tools and clamps needed. Oetiker clamps (pinch clamps) are available from McMaster-Carr and firesleeve clamps are available from Aircraft Spruce.
5. I note that the attached card indicates the fuel pump is set for 4.7 psi at 1600 rpm. I assume that is propeller RPM as the pump is driven off the front of the gear case. My Dynon indicates the old pump regulates at 3.7 to 3.9 psi, however I don't know how well the sensor is calibrated, probably not very well. It will be interesting to see what the new fuel pressure indication will be.

I have an annual condition inspection coming up in a month and will wait to install the new pump at that time.

Tony
 
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morsesc said:
Thanks John (and everyone)... I have a new pump on order. If anyone else is interested, Leading Edge Airfoils has a few in stock @ $167.00 ea. Now I guess I need to call Van's and get the parts for the fuel drain. Just when I thought I was finished building :p.

Rick.
Click to expand...

Rick,
Keep in mind, the fuel drain is simply a "leak" escape. It serves the same purpose as the weep holes on the old one which of course dripped directly onto the muffler! You can route the "escape" anywhere you want as long as you don't crimp it or block off the opening in any way...the pump will stop, yikes!

Pete
 
"I blew the old style fuel pump on take off last week (rough running engine, loss of power, high fuel flow, low fuel pressure and smell of fuel)."

Not good, IMHO. VERY not good. Eventually, a serious accident is bound to happen - I don't want to be there at the time.

I have a new engine, never run since installed, with the old pump. I plan to change it out before my initial run to avoid it going south on me in an unhappy way.

Wonder what my chances are of getting a new swap out of Rotax?

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
NASA515 said:
"I blew the old style fuel pump on take off last week (rough running engine, loss of power, high fuel flow, low fuel pressure and smell of fuel)."

Not good, IMHO. VERY not good. Eventually, a serious accident is bound to happen - I don't want to be there at the time.

I have a new engine, never run since installed, with the old pump. I plan to change it out before my initial run to avoid it going south on me in an unhappy way.

Wonder what my chances are of getting a new swap out of Rotax?

Bob Bogash
N737G
Click to expand...

As already mentioned, Rotax currently has an exchange program that will get you an approx. 50% discount if you send in the old style pump.


Just food for thought.... I keep reading post about people planning to remove the old pump, before they even fly. How do you know the new pump is better? It doesn't have much field experience yet... it could end up being a problem just like the last couple of iterations.

I don't mean to say that I think it is a bad idea to change before the old one fails (this new pump does look and sound promising)... just don't become complacent and assume that just because it is the newest pump available, that it is guarantied to be without problems.
 
"How do you know the new pump is better?"

Excellent point. The one thing we DO know is -- the old pump has reliability problems. Of course, its mortality is nowhere near 100%. So, some - maybe most - people have had no problems despite hundreds of in-service hours.

Obviously, the manufacturer recognizes they have a problem or they wouldn't have rolled into a new design. Clearly, the new pump could have reliability issues of its own. But, the new drain line addresses my primary concern - raw fuel in the engine compartment.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Exchange policy is what exactly?

We don't really know the exchange policy, especially on old style pumps that have not failed. Some have, and some have not, got a 50% refund and you will have to invest another $15 to UPS the thing back.

I will tag the the old, unfailed pump and put it in my bin of misc. parts rather than invest more money to send it back in hopes of recovering 1/2 of the $115.95 that the new one cost me. That's just me, everyone is different ;).

Tony
 
Customer Service 101!

First I would say yes, LEAF and Lockwood (whose shop is just down the road)should have Pumps at S&F. They did have them at OSH 2011. While you are there feel free to ask them how many New style pumps have failed as of their release. I will be asking them this question at OSH where both vendors will give Informational Rotax forms. By then they will have had the new pump out for 1 year. You have to ask the correct question to get the right answer.
It does bother me in regards to the customer service that Rotax provides in the USA, which is one of the largest markets in the world. The process to get a part returned for a warranty refund seems some what convoluted. With a price tag of $18500.00 you would think that they would bend over backwards to help you out. Rotax knows exactly how many parts and what kind are sold in the USA through computer tracking. Dealers in the USA have to order all their parts direct from Rotax through Kodiak Research Ltd. Nassau, Bahamas. So they know how many old pumps were sold in the USA as well as returned for warranty refunds. So replacing all the old pumps would be a drop in the bucket as compared to how many of their engines are sold here. It would have gone a great distance to further Safety. I have never seen at OSH an actual Rotax representative from Germany. IMHO the three Rotax dealers in the USA are very guarded about what they say about their product. Even on their web site in their forms section other than hosting the forms they don't answer direct questions when asked. :confused: I do like their engine though. But just want a little more respect when it comes to my hard earned USA dollar.:cool:
 
Finally something I don't have to worry about. We got our engine a couple weeks ago and hung it yesterday. I looked at my pictures, and it is the new style with seven screws. But what if the new design is defective? Hmmm, guess I still have to worry.

Seriously though, if I had the old style, could I change it out before the fly-off, or would I have to use what is sent to meet the E-LSA rules? I would think that would be a concern, but I may be off base here. Anyone sure?

Bob
 
Thanks Jetguy!

Yes, John, by all means put Rotax's collective feet to the fire on the fuel pump issue. I don't know if their USA distribution set-up protects them from liability but it sure insulates them from accountability.

In addition to the replacement/cost question, it would be useful to know how many of the old-style pumps failed from leaking, how many of the 912 pumps which they replaced failed due to over-pressure and what specifically (screws rather than crimp?) was addressed on the newest pump.

It would also be good to know if the newest pump was specifically manufactured for the 912 or was found in a catalog of replacement parts for Austrian airboats or Moravian motorcycles.

Thank you for once again taking the point at the EAA events for those of us who are unable to talk face-to-face with Rotax USA.

Jim
#264
flying 101 hours on second original-style fuel pump with pressure holding
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
As already mentioned, Rotax currently has an exchange program that will get you an approx. 50% discount if you send in the old style pump........
Click to expand...

This must be something new. When I sent my failed pump in to Lockwood with the warrantee request some months back I didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.
 
no more refund

Just called Lockwood and they said they would need the pump by tomorrow but would not have time to do the paperwork to get the 50% refund. So if you want the new pump it will be 100% out of you pocket.

They recommended not replacing it unless it leaked......this does not sound good to me. I understand any pump can leak but you just don't hear about Lycoming pumps failing like you do this pump and if the new pump is a superior design, why would they not just recommend replacing it?

There are two numbers they need to know which one send you. 892-542 or 892-546. It will be on the flange. Let them know which one you have and they will let you know if they have it and how much it will cost.

Like others have said, I would like to see some failure rate data on both pumps.
Should have jumped on this Monday and it would have saved me one tank of gas.
 
I stopped by the Lockwood booth at SnF today and asked if they suggested preemptively replacing the pump with no issues with the existing one. They said no that they would not replace it with no issues with the existing pump.

Carl
 
Update -- new pump install

This should update my posts above (#6 & #13) regarding the new pump with vent line. I completed the install of the new fuel pump today during an ACI. I had no problem at all with the old pump but feel this is a worth while upgrade due to the history of the old pump and the fact that this new pump has a vent line to overboard. If you buy the pump w/o the fuel lines attached the cost is reasonable -- approx $115 when I bought it.

This picture shows it completed except I have not pulled the fire sleeve clamps up tight until I test run the motor and check for leaks:
P1030048-M.jpg

The fuel hoses are put on the old pump with compression clamps that had to be (carefully) cut off. I used Oetiker clamps to reinstall the hoses. The fire sleeve will slip over the Oetikers.
Also something to note is that the old pump insulator gasket had been installed at the factory with a thin film of sealant on the side facing the gear housing but not on the other side. The installation instructions for the new pump state that no sealant is necessary. The difference that I see is that the new pump has an 'O' ring on it's flange. I installed it without any sealant, per the instructions.

The vent line installs in tight quarters:
P1030051-M.jpg

The vent is held to the oil return tubes with Adel clamps, and you can just see the clamps on the back tube in this picture. It was a little difficult getting them on, but doable.

As I said, the old pump ran trouble free for 135 hours and I expect it would have gone hundreds more hours. Hopefully this new pump will run as good, plus I will have the peace of mind attributed to the vent to overboard :).

Tony
 
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Failed pump

At 80 hours on the Hobbs, I detected a fuel stain on the inside of the cowling, below the fuel pump.
Lucky it was just a small amount of fuel after a 19 hour trip to Idaho.
Ordered a new pump today. Price has gone way up. Lockwood sells for $168.+

Gary
 
Gary, Is it $168 with the hoses or without? You can use your existing hoses if its still cheaper for just the pump....was like $80.
 
Ahhhhhhh - - Pete - -

It was about $80 IF - IF - you got an exchange price. With hoses, they are over $500 if I remember right.

John Bender
401.2 hours today.
 
Fuel pump installation

Just a heads up for those of us installing the new fuel pump.

SI-912-020 R5 (sec 4.3.4) states to not add sealant to the new gasket. This is different from the previous pump installation.

Gary
 
Interesting find on old style fuel pump

I am assisting Hal_San with picture posting of one of the old style fuel pumps recently removed from N912HM. The pump was working OK and was only removed in order to upgrade to the new style with the vent line during an annual inspection when the cowlings were off. Note the rather significant deformation in the outlet pipe of the old fuel pump.
i-NXQVgMM-M.jpg

The blue tape on the inlet pipe was just to keep metal particles out when the clamp was cut off the outlet pipe.
i-rqwbQfb-M.jpg

The deformation possibly was caused by installation of the factory crimp clamp.

As stated above this pump was working without trouble symptoms. One such discovery isn't necessarily evidence of a lack of quality control and is probably an isolated instance, but we are wondering if anyone has seen anything similar when replacing one of these pumps.


Tony
 
I am guessing that no else has seen this crimp in their old fuel pump connection pipe as there have been no responses.
 
Retrospective parts kit for 46-18?

I recollect someone mentioning that there is a Vans parts kit for the fuel pump vent line. I cannot find any reference to this, can anyone help?

Failing that, I will order the component parts as called out in the drawing Page 46-18. However the plans call for FF-01224 interconnect hose and FF-01225 drain hose to be made from EA HOSE H175. I cannot find any reference to this hose either!

Thanks...Keith
 
The kit is not in the webstore, can be ordered direct from Van's per mail. All hardware included. Price $17,-
 
Just a different perspective,

The nice thing about the fuel pump drain tube is it can be kept simple.

Many use clear poly tubing from a hardware store for the vent line. Clear poly tubing does allow some visual observation where opaque tubing's don't. I just had a guy in my shop and his was leaking and he never knew it because he couldn't see it and the wind blew any residue off the end. It can be held in place by a wire tie, plastic clamp or metal clamp. It carries no pressure, should not be against any thing hot and only allows the occasional drop or two to pass through. Clear poly tubing is about $.38 ft. and you'll need about 5'-6' depending on your routing.

p.s.
The new fuel pumps have have an occasional discharge drop or two pass through the tube. Most people don't know this so they think they have a bad pump. This tube should not be placed in the air stream so as not to have an extreme negative or positive pressure.
 
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