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Hartzell Composite vs. Whirlwind Composite

Hey Guys,

Late yesterday I talked with Bill C. of Whirlwind. He is involved with the testing of their propellers including the HRT74. Bill tells me that the new HRT74 prop is designed for 205 hp or above. He suggested that if you have an HRT74 ordered and do not meet this minimum hp you should give Whirlwind a call.

Thought you folks needed to find this out now.

Cheers,

db

Good info Thanks!
Lycon estimated our HP at 210 so we are ok, but will call WW just the same.
Thanks for the contact name.
 
Good and Bad

Word from whirlwind is the spinner is drying overnight and should ship tomorrow. I'll post pics asap!

Great News! Thanks for sharing.

FYI: I called Lycon yesterday and Shawn estimated our HP at 210-215, so we are over the 205 threshold.
I spoke to Bill Koleno of WW today via phone and he recommended the HRT74 for our installation. The HRT is somewhat new to them and they honestly have been exploring the higher HP installations more than the lower HP ones because they have the 200RV for that. Bill expressed interest in my flight testing on our other -6 with the 180 stock engine.
Sadly, he did not see our prop on the assembly line and said he would update me in a couple days with a schedule.
Also the info in the pdf owners manual that refered to installations as low as 150 was a typo....and is being corrected now. I edited my previous post too.
 
No Whirlwind prop yet.
Last email said hopefully.....the end of this month.
They said still had others in front of us.
Ordered at SNF.
This week will be 20 weeks.
Paid deposit with order.
Have not been asked for balance.
No shipping info.
Invoice date 4-13-17
Order # 3263
WW has been responsive to my emails and just keep pushing the completion date out, email by email. Explainations of just being overwelmed by orders and repairs etc. 8 weeks, 10 weeks, 12 weeks, few more weeks, end of the month...
Not a problem for us as we are still happily flying the Hartzel prop. It does make us wonder about what happens, once we install the WW and sell the Hartzel, if we have a problem with the prop and have to wait and not fly.:eek:
To be clear......I am not vendor bashing, just stating the facts so others in the same position or curious can be in the loop.
Upperdeck.....thanks for posting your info...somehow it helps.

Since I was the OP for this thread, I wanted to weigh in on this post. I hope that the delays are primarily due to SNF and OSH orders and not repairs. If it's repairs, that would trouble me.

I ordered my Hartzell M hub composite prop through Van's and it was shipped as promised by Hartzell. Looking forward to installing it at Synergy next week and fitting the SJ cowling and BL plenum.
 
Thanks Chris......good info.

Bob FYI , I spoke with WW earlier in the week and was told the hold up now is a supplier that does some completion to the "studs". My prop blades are apparently completed and mine is #3 in line to ship and was estimated another 2 weeks.
 
I hate to contribute to the thread drift, but I did get my HRTprop from WW about three weeks ago. She's a beauty!

20170906_165005.jpg
 
Update

Bob FYI , I spoke with WW earlier in the week and was told the hold up now is a supplier that does some completion to the "studs". My prop blades are apparently completed and mine is #3 in line to ship and was estimated another 2 weeks.

Chris,
Thanks for the update....
We got called about 2 weeks ago asking if we wanted the spinner painted.
We had told them no on the original order and said no again.
But it was a good tell....that it was going to the paint shop!!!
Real sorry to hear there is another hold up...geeezzz.
But we feel sure it will be worth the wait.
Thanks for the update....
 
no update

Last update we received was via Chris on 9/30 estimating he was possibly 2 weeks out.
Our invoice date was 4/13/17. So we are over 6 months now...
Trying not to think about it.......:rolleyes:
Sure it will be worth the wait.
 
Bob, mine arrived last week and I am trying hard not to unpack and admire it until installation time.
 
info

Bob, mine arrived last week and I am trying hard not to unpack and admire it until installation time.

Chris,
Thanks for update......we must be getting close.
Our invoice date was 4/13/17 Invoice # 3263.

Can you tell me what your invoice date and # was?...you had said before we were close.
We have not heard a word, and sure they will call for more money before shipping. ;) Would love to know if there were 2 or 20 between us.
Thanks
 
Bob, I am 3261 and mine arrived last Thursday, 10/19. Becca should be calling you for payment any time now.
 
Just following up

Since I had posted earlier on my experience with my WW 200RV prop, and I was just following up on this thread, I thought it would be good to post a little bit of an update.

With now almost 170 hrs on the overhaul, my WW 200RV is NOT losing any grease at all. That issue does indeed seem to be solved by the Viton O-rings.
With almost 470 hrs total on my prop, it still looks like new, except for the red oval decals, which seem to take a beating.

At this point I would have no qualms whatsoever about buying another WW prop.
 
Props

Bob,
Am I reading this invoice correctly? Twelve THOUSAND bucks for a prop?

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/order_forms/hartzell_order_form.pdf

Dude...
V/R
Smokey

Smokey,
You are almost correct.
This thread is about Hartzell Composite vs WW Composite.
Bought one of the 74HRT's at SNF....9,215 plus shipping list!
SNF had a 5% discount for 8,754.
Includes custom PPG paint colors on blade and tips plus a primed spinner assembly.

The blades appear similar but are built differently and obviously are certified vs expermental.
And honestly there are the good and bad issues of dealing with a smaller company verses a larger company.
Least of all the Hartzell is approximately 5K MORE!! than the WW. YES 9+5=14

The cool part is my hangarmate is moving up from a paddle blade Hartzell to the new WW composite blade 74HRT...the newest one out this year. His 0-360A1A was OH'd with 9.1 CR pistons and Lycon worked cylinders and HP is estimated at 210....so it should turn the prop nicely. We are hoping to get meanful test data before and after the swap for comparisons and to see what each MPH or Knot increase actually cost! :eek:
 
With now almost 170 hrs on the overhaul, my WW 200RV is NOT losing any grease at all. That issue does indeed seem to be solved by the Viton O-rings.
With almost 470 hrs total on my prop, it still looks like new, except for the red oval decals, which seem to take a beating.

I've got just under 200 hours since new on my 200RV prop, no problems whatsoever - except the decals as you mentioned. I think they made it about halfway through Phase I and said "Screw it, I quit."
 
Got it!

It has arrived!!
We were called monday for CC info and they shipped it out.
Arrived Wednesday.......Va is close to Ohio!
Have not unpacked it yet, but will this weekend!
Pretty excited for sure.
Let the testing begin...
any thoughts on what to test before and after to get a good comparison?
Manual says to balance before flying....so Aces 1015 or Dynavibe?
 
Test

As a test I would be interested in is a ground pull thrust comparison
If interested I'm close enough to come over and help.
 
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As a test I would be interested in is a ground pull thrust comparison
If interested I'm close enough to come over and help.

Ground pull test?...soulds like connecting the tail to a hitch of my F150 with a fishing scale between them to measure the thrust at a certain RPM?:eek:
Yes, you are close...stop in!
 
Update teaser

Swaping props...
Removing Hartzel HC-C2YK-1BF F666A-4
Installing WW 74HRT
Removed the Hartzel today and weighed it today with spinner.
Weighed the WW with spinner (no paint)
18 lbs. lighter.

Will need to finish install and balance then test fly for performance changes but we are liking the 18lb weight savings.
 
Balanced

Installed the new prop! WW 74HRT
Balanced the prop this evening.
Used a ACES 2015 balancer. (borrowed)
Started at .25
Ended at .01
Hopefully test flights wednesday, weather and schedules permitting.
This is one pretty prop. Maybe too pretty! :rolleyes:
 
Not yet

We have had some fitting issues, but getting them resolved.
Inital numbers are good/faster.
Main thing is 18 lbs lighter......prop and spinner combo.
Very pretty prop too...
I say this and it sounds hollow but it is true. A prop up until now has been a hunk of wood or metal with various paint jobs.
This prop has a finish that would rival the best paint job out there. Almost TOO pretty. One really has to be careful using powerful tools to torque nuts and safety wire etc around this prop.
Normally a prop just gets a cleaning or a wipe down, etc, but this prop begs for wax and to be taken care of.
 
Performance?

We have had some fitting issues, but getting them resolved.
Inital numbers are good/faster.
Main thing is 18 lbs lighter......prop and spinner combo.
Very pretty prop too...
I say this and it sounds hollow but it is true. A prop up until now has been a hunk of wood or metal with various paint jobs.
This prop has a finish that would rival the best paint job out there. Almost TOO pretty. One really has to be careful using powerful tools to torque nuts and safety wire etc around this prop.
Normally a prop just gets a cleaning or a wipe down, etc, but this prop begs for wax and to be taken care of.

Bob, any additional performance numbers on the prop?

Thanks, Brian
 
Cg considerations

Bob, I am sure you have considered the effect on cg that this change will cause.

Several hundred hours ago, I switched from a 200rv to a hartzell Aluminum to gain 19 pounds on the nose. The cg moved from tending towards aft to right in the middle of the range. The flying characteristics are substantially improved. a 6 with aft range cg?s can be very sensitive in pitch, have tendencies to bounce landings and limits aft baggage in a meaningful way.

Hope you are not going there.
 
Bob, any additional performance numbers on the prop?

Thanks, Brian

Brian,
No final numbers, preliminary numbers are good.
4mph faster at low cruise.
Time to climb to 8K was 6 seconds faster.

We had fitting issues with our James cowl and WW had us install a coarse stop ring in the hub. We are testing now for flight envelope. adjusting governor, etc. Once we are set, we will rerun the speed and time to climb tests.
 
Bob, I am sure you have considered the effect on cg that this change will cause.

Several hundred hours ago, I switched from a 200rv to a hartzell Aluminum to gain 19 pounds on the nose. The cg moved from tending towards aft to right in the middle of the range. The flying characteristics are substantially improved. a 6 with aft range cg?s can be very sensitive in pitch, have tendencies to bounce landings and limits aft baggage in a meaningful way.

Hope you are not going there.

Gary,
Thanks for the input. I will look at the W&B, we have a recent one!
Our -6 went from a wood prop to a metal Sensenich to a C/S Hartzel to a James cowl conversion that included a 2.25 extension.
So we have gotten heavier and pushed the heavy prop farther out.
Taking 18 lbs off the nose seems like a wonderful thing.
It also made our wallet thinner. :rolleyes:
 
Hmm, interesting journey. I thought at one time that the extended James cowl with composite prop might be the optimal six configuration. Go for it and good luck!
 
What about the cowling?

Hi Krea,

I don't have the engineering expertise of Steve Smith but I do have real-world experience with both props. I flew my RV-8 with a WW 200RV for about 1500 hours. I was given a Hartzell composite, wide blade prop when Hartzell sponsored our Team AeroDynamix.

Ron,
A friend of mine is contemplating the change from the WW to the Hartzell composite CS prop. When you made this conversion, how well did it fit with your existing cowling? Or did it require surgery on the cowling for fit?
 
Ron,
A friend of mine is contemplating the change from the WW to the Hartzell composite CS prop. When you made this conversion, how well did it fit with your existing cowling? Or did it require surgery on the cowling for fit?

When we first mounted the props there were several that hit the cowling at high pitch so we sent them all back to Hartzell and they gave us props with a hub that put the blades and inch further forward. No clearance issues with the new hub and that is the hub that is currently provided. No surgery required.
 
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Taking 18 lbs off the nose seems like a wonderful thing.
It also made our wallet thinner. :rolleyes:

Just curious how the cost of the WW VS the Hartzell VS an MT compares?

Any thoughts about overhaull experiences and costs comparing the 3?
 
Overhal costs

I did some research today on overhaul costs and thought I would share the data since I never saw a response to your post.

An MTV-15 2-blade composite overhaul starts around $3,300
An MTV-12 3 blade composite overhaul starts around $4,100
A Whirlwind 74HRT "Teardown Inspection" as they call it starts around $650

I don't have any info on the Hartzell. Of note, the MT TBO is 1,800 or 72 months while the Whirlwind TBO is 600 or 72 months. Seems to me that if you don't fly much and will hit the 72 month mark before the 600 hours then the Whirlwind is significantly less expensive to "inspect / overhaul". I would assume though that if any issues are found during the inspection that the price would quickly go up.
 
Jon,
Seems like more info needed.
As for me, I sent our WW prop back to WW and stuck with our Hartzel. The HRT74 didn't play well with a James cowling and the long lead times on other options had us wanting to stick with a known quanity for now and update in the future.

But for now......
One thing I noticed in the WW and sure it pertains to all composites in the beautiful finishes. Almost too perfect as to make any imperfection stand out. So when we as pilots or owners think about OH's the question is one, the hub, but 2 is the blades. When a aluminum blade has minor knicks the OH'er can regrind the blade, within limits, and we know what that costs, lets just say 2 to 3K....
Not sure I had heard about costs to repair a composite blade. Now, I don't know and to be fair, in the aluminum blade example above if it's out of limits, it becomes a airboat prop of a wall decoation or a recycleable. And maybe the composite prop can be repaired and repainted when in bad shape, so there are pros and cons. Bottom lines is it seems to be hard to compare apples to apples.
 
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Rotol blade replica 72"

Hi all,finally the Rotol/Spitfire blade replica 72" was tested on a new RV7 stock 180 HP. It's 19 pounds lighter compared stok metal blasdes and is very very smooth.Here's attached some numbers from the Garmin. Looks not bad,what about your numbers with different prop on same frame/engine combo please?


Thanks,
Alex




IMG-20190112-WA0026.jpg

IMG-20190112-WA0036.jpg

IMG-20190112-WA0040.jpg
 
Hartzell composite C/S prop with Sam James Cowl

I am in the process of converting my RV7A from a Fixed to a C/S prop. I want to go with the Hartzell 74" composite 2blade. Apparently a "stock" Vans cowl accepts the Hartzell (or anyone else's) hub with no problem. However my Sam James cowl is 1 3/4" longer than stock Vans. When using a fixed pitch prop you use a 2 1/4" spacer between the crank/flywheel and the prop hub. I use a 4" spacer on my F.P. Sensenich. I have been unable to determine if Hartzell makes a hub that will fit my Sam James cowl. Vans doesn't seem to know the answer, nor does Sam James. I'm yet to speak to anyone from Hartzell. Has anyone on the forum ever installed a Hartzell composite C/S prop on a Sam James cowl?
 
I am in the process of converting my RV7A from a Fixed to a C/S prop. I want to go with the Hartzell 74" composite 2blade. Apparently a "stock" Vans cowl accepts the Hartzell (or anyone else's) hub with no problem. However my Sam James cowl is 1 3/4" longer than stock Vans. When using a fixed pitch prop you use a 2 1/4" spacer between the crank/flywheel and the prop hub. I use a 4" spacer on my F.P. Sensenich. I have been unable to determine if Hartzell makes a hub that will fit my Sam James cowl. Vans doesn't seem to know the answer, nor does Sam James. I'm yet to speak to anyone from Hartzell. Has anyone on the forum ever installed a Hartzell composite C/S prop on a Sam James cowl?

You should get the dimensions from Hartzell using the flange base as the datum. You will want to know the distance from the datum to the blade at full pitch vs radius. If you want to go fast and reduce the RPM, you will need a different full pitch stop to increase the pitch. Additional pitch means a new curve for clearance. You will need the Hartzell spinner and likely the M hub. "Fitting" depends on your dimensions with your cowl as fitted. While the Vans inlets are set back from the plane of the cowl spinner ring, the James is not, the inlets are even, and therefore closer to the blade.
 
I?ve owned two of f the three

Any thoughts about overhaull experiences and costs comparing the 3?

I had a 3 bladed Hartzell composite on my plane. When it was time for an OH I sent it to a well known west coast prop shop for OH and they noted some fine linear indications in the blades that did not penetrate the outer laminate. It looked like it had potentially been clamped too hard on the truck that the prop shop strapped it too when they picked it up. The shop wanted to send the blades to Hartzell for the repair and I ok?d it since they were the manufacturer.

Hartzell red tagged the blades and offered me new blades at a price that exceeded what a new prop would cost. They refused to repair my blades but in red tagging them, permanently xxxx?d out the serial numbers on each blade ensuring no one else would repair them either. Hartzell publishes lots of marketing material stating how these composite blades have an infinite life and are infinitely repairable. I have never been given any reason what so ever as to why they deemed these blades un-airworthy or why they would not repair them.

I then bought a brand new MT three bladed prop. The MT has been trouble free, smooth and looks great. I don?t think it pulls quite as hard as the Hartzell did. I have not had to OH it yet but at 6 years now it throws no grease and the blades are just as tight as when I bought it.

I loved my Hartzell but the fact that they would red tag a set of blades with no reason given means I will likely buy MT for my next plane.
 
I am in the process of converting my RV7A from a Fixed to a C/S prop. I want to go with the Hartzell 74" composite 2blade. Apparently a "stock" Vans cowl accepts the Hartzell (or anyone else's) hub with no problem. However my Sam James cowl is 1 3/4" longer than stock Vans. When using a fixed pitch prop you use a 2 1/4" spacer between the crank/flywheel and the prop hub. I use a 4" spacer on my F.P. Sensenich. I have been unable to determine if Hartzell makes a hub that will fit my Sam James cowl. Vans doesn't seem to know the answer, nor does Sam James. I'm yet to speak to anyone from Hartzell. Has anyone on the forum ever installed a Hartzell composite C/S prop on a Sam James cowl?

My RV-7A has an extended SJ cowl and the Hartzell composite prop. Per the advice of Kahuna (on this forum), I purchased the prop with the "M" hub through Van's. It adds even more cost to the prop but fits perfectly. My understanding is that Hartzell sets the low pitch stop so interference with the cowl is not an issue. We did force the blades to low pitch when installing the prop to verify. So far I have not had an issue.

Here are the part numbers I used to order -

Prop part #M2R50100X
Spinner part #D-4798P

Hope you are sitting down when you see the price ;)
 
Hartzell C/S Prop with Sam James Cowl

Thank you Bill and Katana Pilot for the very useful information! I'll be calling Hartzell Monday AM to confirm that they have everything that will work for me. oh yeah, and I'm sure the price will knock me dead!
 
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