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  #21  
Old 04-18-2017, 01:42 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Auburntsts View Post
To Ernst's point, it would seem that the option of having a CFI give you transition training in your own RV where a LODA wouldn't be required is mainly an option for those that buy an already flying aircraft that's in Phase II vs. one that hasn't flown yet.
Just to be clear, any owner can obtain a LODA just by filling out some paperwork. That's not a big deal. It's the cost of insurance. For some reason standard insurance policies generally are valid when the airplane owner is receiving dual instruction; but those same policies generally do not cover an owner who is giving instruction in his airplane.
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  #22  
Old 04-18-2017, 02:14 PM
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Auburntsts Auburntsts is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Just to be clear, any owner can obtain a LODA just by filling out some paperwork. That's not a big deal. It's the cost of insurance. For some reason standard insurance policies generally are valid when the airplane owner is receiving dual instruction; but those same policies generally do not cover an owner who is giving instruction in his airplane.
Why would I need a LODA to receive training in my own plane?
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  #23  
Old 04-18-2017, 03:05 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Auburntsts View Post
Why would I need a LODA to receive training in my own plane?
You don't. But if you desire, you may apply for a LODA which will allow you to rent, for profit, your airplane to others, for the sole purpose of transition training. On the application you will need to list the cfi(s) who will conduct the training. e.g., the LODA holder is an aircraft owner; he need not be a cfi. So if you desire to do so, you can help out new -10 pilots in this way. But your standard insurance policy does not cover this use!
The point I was trying to make is that for new builders who want to make the first flight themselves as PIC, and be insured, finding a -10 with the LODA paperwork is not much of an issue. It's the insurance cost that makes it so hard to find a suitable airplane, and is why several transition trainers have dropped out of the business in recent years.
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  #24  
Old 04-18-2017, 09:50 PM
Bicyclops Bicyclops is offline
 
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Default AC90-116

Maybe not as SOP, but there are cases where it is about the only way. My RV-6 now has an airworthiness cert and my insurance co. wants 3 hrs of dual in a tailwheel RV before I'm covered. They do cover for dual in the insured aircraft as long as I don't violate my operating limitations. I've got 800+ hrs in a 6A and a TW endorsement but only 17 hrs of TW. I'm going to get some more landings in a Citabria this Saturday to sharpen up. I would happily do the 3 hrs in an RV if I could find one other than my own, but as others have noted, that's the rub. So I elect to fly the first several hours of phase 1 with a qualifying pilot per the requirements of AC90-116. I just need to make sure the QP is also a CFI so I can log it as dual and my insurance will be valid.

Ed Holyoke



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Originally Posted by Auburntsts View Post
I get that you can, but do you really want marry-up transition training and initial Phase 1 flights together as SOP?

To Ernst's point, it would seem that the option of having a CFI give you transition training in your own RV where a LODA wouldn't be required is mainly an option for those that buy an already flying aircraft that's in Phase II vs. one that hasn't flown yet.
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  #25  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:41 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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Default So here we go....

Somehow I didn't think the purpose of phase 1, nor of AC 90-116, was to be giving dual to the observer pilot.
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  #26  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:45 AM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
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Somehow I didn't think the purpose of phase 1, nor of AC 90-116, was to be giving dual to the observer pilot.
Amen to that.

Just how much is insurance to cover instructions Bob?
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  #27  
Old 04-19-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Somehow I didn't think the purpose of phase 1, nor of AC 90-116, was to be giving dual to the observer pilot.
YEP! This kind of abuse is exactly why I fought AC 90-116 tooth and nail.

Phase I is for flight testing. NOT for flight instruction!
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  #28  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:20 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
Amen to that.

Just how much is insurance to cover instructions Bob?
As of 3 years ago, an annual policy covering instruction given was about $2K more than a policy not covering it, and the coverage was not quite as good. Instead I was able to add trainees to my policy, for about $500 each. But my current insurer won't allow that.
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  #29  
Old 04-19-2017, 09:47 PM
Bicyclops Bicyclops is offline
 
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Default Purpose

Well, obviously the purpose of phase 1 is to prove the newly built aircraft safe to operate while risking as few lives as possible. An observer pilot is not allowed by the AC until the initial flight test program, with all the maneuvers and at least 8 hrs flown by the builder pilot, is complete and documented and has nothing to do with what I propose. If I intended to be an "observer pilot" I'd have no business being along on the first flight anyway, even if I did build it and know the airplane better than anybody.

The purpose of the additional pilot program, as set forth in the opening pages of the AC itself, is to cut down on the risk of an inexperienced pilot crashing his brand new plane early in the test flight period. So, taking along a very experienced and highly qualified pilot, who happens to be a CFI, with a ~20hr tailwheel builder pilot - how is that abuse of the additional pilot program? It is exactly what the program is for. If my insurance didn't mandate a CFI, I might well want to use a qualifying pilot per the additional pilot program for the first flight anyway.

I'd be happy to take enough dual in a tailwheel RV to be competent and confident before flying my own airplane solo if I could arrange it, but as noted by others, the insurance companies punish LODA holders to the point where that route isn't feasible. Yes, I would fly with Mike Seager if he were available to me before mid June despite the travel and the additional expense that entails. Even he wouldn't be doing training in RVs if he weren't subsidized by the mothership.

Ed Holyoke


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Somehow I didn't think the purpose of phase 1, nor of AC 90-116, was to be giving dual to the observer pilot.
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  #30  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:02 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Bicyclops View Post
I just need to make sure the QP is also a CFI so I can log it as dual and my insurance will be valid.

Ed Holyoke
Just to be clear, YOU never get to 'log dual'. Your cfi must sign your logbook as 'instruction given'. The job of a cfi and a test pilot are fundamentally different. If you are really getting an hour of instruction on that first hour-long flight then the cfi is not following the AC guidance for the PIC. If the CFI is following the test program then you aren't receiving instruction.

I'm sympathetic to your situation, but I don't think bending the rules is the answer. Advice to others: Start thinking about this issue at least 6 months before you will be ready to fly.
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