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  #1  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:50 PM
Full Throttle Full Throttle is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 27
Default N838RV NTSB final report

N838RV Final Report has been published. It has to do with a Superior Air Parts XP-400 Crankshaft failure in a RV-8A

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=FA

Last edited by DeltaRomeo : 11-19-2018 at 08:00 PM. Reason: added link
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2018, 09:33 AM
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RV3bpilot RV3bpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Ulm, Minnesota
Posts: 274
Default Engine Out Flight to the Ground

I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings. When it happens for real for the first time it is like you just grabbed a bare wire from an old wore out electrical cord that is plugged in to 120 volts. Then you try everything to get the engine back running, flipping switches and valves, that takes about 5 seconds. Then you shut everything off and glide with your adrenaline making you sweat and heart pound hard.

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:11 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV3bpilot View Post
I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings.....

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.
You are right but kind of missing the point... "Engine out landing" means what? Landing with no power (idle)? We all do that for the most part every flight, as we should be at idle at or just before touchdown... Practicing idle power pattern, approach, final, landing without adding power is good, agree. Learn your best glide speed, practice power off stalls at safe altitude, yep all good things. However....

I think the main point is DON'T STALL... They stalled. So many loss of power accidents end in a stall and uncontrolled contact with the ground... DON'T STALL...

If loss of power is at low altitude,
* Don't turn go straight or don't turn more than 20-30 degrees left or right
* Fly it to the ground at best glide speed, slow before impact, flaps out, aim for least impact
* Wings level and take what ever you got to land on or hit
* Don't try to save the airplane, don't make steep turns...
* DON'T STALL.... DON'T STALL.....

An off field landing can be very survivable if you hit under control at min controllable airspeed (min vertical sink) ... Get slow, turn, and stall, hit uncontrolled, you will not make it.

The report says the engine was a factor but not cause:
Recip engine power section - Failure (Factor)
Airspeed - Not attained/maintained (Cause)
Angle of attack - Not attained/maintained (Cause)
Personnel issues Aircraft control - Pilot (Cause)

I think artificial stall warning or AOA is a great thing. Experimental aircraft don't mandate this,
and RV's have pretty good indication from buffeting it is about to stall... if you are sensitive to it....
However AOA indicators give us an amazing safety advantage...

The other thing is these hot rod engines making over stock (Lycoming) HP. It is safe, but these
are often not certified engine configurations. This crank failed in a few hours. I am of the belief
if you have a NEW engine you should fly it like phase 1, and stay near the airport. Climb to altitude
and orbit for the first X hours... RIP and condolences to family and friends of the pilot and passenger.
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Raleigh, NC Area
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 01-25-2019 at 07:57 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:57 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Location: Calgary, Canada
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Default

George has some good points here although I wouldn't drop full flap in an RV. I wouldn't be here today if I had.

Read this short piece based on my experience with an actual power loss and forced landing.

http://www.sdsefi.com/air44.htm
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 436.9 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm


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  #5  
Old 12-10-2018, 11:33 AM
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DeeCee 57 DeeCee 57 is offline
 
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Location: Zürich W, Switzerland, Europe, Earth, Milky Way, known Universe...
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yep, good pointers Ross.

Had an engine failure in my first Falco in 2008 and was way surprised at the ROD. Following a con-rod failure the Lyco had lost all oil and the prop was effectively acting as an airbrake. At the time we were only about 400m (1200ft) AGL, and aided by my guardian angel working overtime, managed to land the stricken bird on a winding mountain road. Gear partially extended and flaps up...

My modest RV flight experience has taught me that I would not be using flaps in case of an emergency landing with the engine stopped. Especially with the 3 bladed prop, the steep approach results in a flare akin to an autorotation in a chopper...
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:41 PM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is online now
 
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Location: AUSTRALIA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
I wouldn't drop full flap in an RV.
Or if you do then add more speed.
Did some engine out full flap tests in my 9A some time ago. My normal (engine producing power) short field approach speed is 55 kt with full flap. With a dead engine at 55 kt and full flap there is not enough power in the elevator/wings to arrest the greater rate of descent going into the flare. I found I had to add 10 kt (65 kt) to comfortably flare with a dead engine.

Fin
9A

Last edited by Finley Atherton : 12-10-2018 at 01:47 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:28 PM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finley Atherton View Post
Or if you do then add more speed.
Did some engine out full flap tests in my 9A some time ago. My normal (engine producing power) short field approach speed is 55 kt with full flap. With a dead engine at 55 kt and full flap there is not enough power in the elevator/wings to arrest the greater rate of descent going into the flare. I found I had to add 10 kt (65 kt) to comfortably flare with a dead engine.

Fin
9A
I guess it depends on whether you are worried about vertical or horizontal speed. I would be less concerned about being able to flare than about hitting anything in front of me at the lowest possible speed. For a forced landing in an open field, I would want a nice flare and smooth touchdown. If I was destined to hit a solid object head on, my goal would be to hit it at the lowest possible forward speed, which would seem to suggest full flaps and right on the edge of stall.

Chris
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  #8  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:52 PM
WAM120RV WAM120RV is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Coventry. England
Posts: 612
Default A sad event

I like everyone else never want to see these reports, but as has been said we need to practice for an engine out dead stick landing. If you don’t practice you are likely to become another report.

Most RVs have very poor glide ratio, the 9 is probably the best. Having practiced in the 9 I could pull power off well before turning base and still land on the runway. In the 4 there is no way you could do that. Pulling off power about a mile out from 1000 ft is about your limit.

Putting flaps out is never a good idea until you know you can make your landing point. But you must keep speed up and make turns very gently. If you must turn tighter increase your speed first.

I recently did three PFL with an instructor as part of a BFR. The first two I did a flawless touch and goes. The third I did a full flap full stop landing with no issues at all. Two of my friends have recently had real dead stick landings, one in a Europa, the second in a Kitfox 7, in both cases the aircraft were substantially damaged but both pilots and in one case a passenger were uninsured.

Both of these guys practice regularly. The reason for the damage on the Kitfox was that he was that his only option was a ploughed field, otherwise I am pretty sure the aeroplane would have been OK too.

So, everyone should practice for this, for low time RV pilots it is even more important.
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Steve Arnold
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In completion stage of Loehle P5151
Built and now Flying G.BVLR Vans RV4
Rebuilt G.BDBD Tailwind
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:56 PM
raabs raabs is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV3bpilot View Post
I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings. When it happens for real for the first time it is like you just grabbed a bare wire from an old wore out electrical cord that is plugged in to 120 volts. Then you try everything to get the engine back running, flipping switches and valves, that takes about 5 seconds. Then you shut everything off and glide with your adrenaline making you sweat and heart pound hard.

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.
So true on the "bare wire from an old wore out cord" when it's the first time. Having recently experienced my first real loss of power - and it was during climb out - the startle factor is significant. Luckily we were at 1100 AGL and had been vectored to the downwind before departure 1.8 miles from the runway and made it back safe. It was solid houses and strip malls. Practicing engine out's is part of the solution. It would be good to find an effective way to practice reacting when the startle factor hits you.
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  #10  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:12 PM
Tankerpilot75 Tankerpilot75 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 459
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I totally agree that pilots need to practice engine out landings. Here are a few cautionary considerations to bring into your “practice preparation.”

An engine at idle is not the same as a stopped engine. Drag will be higher with a real dead engine.

Obtain best glide speed smoothly. Abrupt control movements waste energy. It’s my opinion you do this first and then check fuel and if possible try to restart you engine.

Do not extend flaps until you know the landing is assured. Flaps add more drag than lift in my opinion. Being “on speed” is important but I’d rather have a little too much airspeed than not enough. Becoming distracted trying to restart a failed engine or align your aircraft with your point of intended landing can cost you valuable airspeed at a critical phase of flight. Airspeed is your friend so protect it!

I agree in a no wind condition it will normally take approximately 500 feet to complete a 180 degree turn but that does not guarantee you will be lined up with the runway or landing area your targeting. If your pattern is wide, winds are a factor, or your turn is delayed then you will need to adjust your plan accordingly.

Remember, it takes more time to safely execute a go around from an engine at idle during a practice dead engine landing. At idle power, the time requirement for a go around is greater than it is if you’re flying an instrument or visual approach at normal power settings.

I recommend using 200 feet AGL as your minimum decision altitude. I surprised myself once when practicing an engine out landing in stronger winds and a slightly delay downwind 1,000 foot AGL turn by making the go around decision a little late. The aircraft still descended while I was maintaining “on speed” waiting for the engine to spool up to safely stop my descent and climb out - short of the runway! Not comfortable. That is one reason why practicing engine out landings are important - but even a practice event can turn ugly if you haven’t thoroughly thought through the event before you begin it.
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Superior XPIO-360, Hartzel CS prop, Older Aerotronics panel with Dual GRT Horizon WS, EIS, Garmin 340, 335 ads-b out, Dual 430s (non-WAAS), TruTrak 385 A/P w/auto level, Electric trim, Tosten 6 button Military Grips, FlightBox wired to WS, Dynon D10A w/battery backup, 406 MHz ELT. Custom Interior, Great POH!
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Last edited by Tankerpilot75 : 01-08-2019 at 08:45 PM.
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