Funny, I 3-pt my Swift most the time. Started flying it in 1987, before the Internet...
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Wheel or Three Point?
- Thread starter f14av8r
- Start date
Funny, I 3-pt my Swift most the time. Started flying it in 1987, before the Internet...
Christopher Murphy
Well Known Member
I 3 pointed mine too ocassionally
I learned the swift in 1974 and there were 2 things that the swift was known for that were cautioned...not getting to climb speed before climbing out of ground effect and getting dropped on the mains.
Ive flown alot of airplanes and the swift ranks in my top 3 favorite airplanes.
Cm
I learned the swift in 1974 and there were 2 things that the swift was known for that were cautioned...not getting to climb speed before climbing out of ground effect and getting dropped on the mains.
Ive flown alot of airplanes and the swift ranks in my top 3 favorite airplanes.
Cm
precession
Well Known Member
Successive Stalls
I'd like to throw in my two cents after 16 years flying the -4, especially because you struck a chord in the memory banks with "it feels like I'm going to fall out of the sky when I get slow on final ... the last 5 seconds before landing is still terrifying."
I know the feeling - felt it for a long time. In the -4, you have a high descent rate when power is off or close to it, and it's only natural that you fear at some point the bottom is going to fall out and you won't be able to arrest the descent. I think it's because the -4 has such a high range of speeds. After going 180-190 mph, you just can't believe your eyes that she's still able to keep flying down at 65 mph - but she does, and slower, albeit with a big descent rate when power off and flaps down.
l have two words for you: "successive stalls." They helped me. By that I mean go up to a safe altitude, like 6,000 AGL or more, slow way down with flaps for a simulated landing with low/no power, and stall not just once, but repeatedly and in succession, like 3 - 6 times. You'll realize all you need to do to break the stall is some relaxation of the stick forward and she immediately starts flying again. As soon as she's regained some speed and you know she's flying again, gently pull back until you once again get the break (stall), then relax forward and repeat. Stay right in that zone where she breaks (stalls) and recovers, breaks and recovers, always being sure to keep the nose tracking straight forward with your rudder pedals. You'll be losing altitude the entire time, so make sure you cleared the area and a few thousand feet below you before starting.
You will now be living right in that zone of break that you've been fearing, right on that edge, and you can play in and out of it and have a lot of fun doing it. You can also watch your airspeed indicator, so you know exactly what it shows when you are at and around the break zone. I bet you'll find it's a lot slower than you've been thinking, and the break is much more gentle than you've been fearing. You can play with putting in and taking out a little power too, keeping yourself hanging just above the break, then letting it break, then recovering with some power and relaxed back pressure on the stick. There are a lot of variations you can play with, but the objective is to play around that break zone that you've been fearing during your landings.
Once you've lost maybe a couple thousand feet of altitude, go back up to your safe altitude and do it over and over. You'll realize what a sweet flying machine the -4 is, you'll lose your fear of when that break is coming (though still respect it), you'll get good practice keeping the nose straight with rudder, and you'll feel loads more confidence that the bottom isn't going to fall out before you expect it to when you come in for an actual landing on the runway.
PS: It's a lot of fun, and even easier, doing it without flaps too - you won't lose as much altitude. And make sure you received full dual instruction in stall recovery from a qualified instructor before doing successive stalls.
I'd like to throw in my two cents after 16 years flying the -4, especially because you struck a chord in the memory banks with "it feels like I'm going to fall out of the sky when I get slow on final ... the last 5 seconds before landing is still terrifying."
I know the feeling - felt it for a long time. In the -4, you have a high descent rate when power is off or close to it, and it's only natural that you fear at some point the bottom is going to fall out and you won't be able to arrest the descent. I think it's because the -4 has such a high range of speeds. After going 180-190 mph, you just can't believe your eyes that she's still able to keep flying down at 65 mph - but she does, and slower, albeit with a big descent rate when power off and flaps down.
l have two words for you: "successive stalls." They helped me. By that I mean go up to a safe altitude, like 6,000 AGL or more, slow way down with flaps for a simulated landing with low/no power, and stall not just once, but repeatedly and in succession, like 3 - 6 times. You'll realize all you need to do to break the stall is some relaxation of the stick forward and she immediately starts flying again. As soon as she's regained some speed and you know she's flying again, gently pull back until you once again get the break (stall), then relax forward and repeat. Stay right in that zone where she breaks (stalls) and recovers, breaks and recovers, always being sure to keep the nose tracking straight forward with your rudder pedals. You'll be losing altitude the entire time, so make sure you cleared the area and a few thousand feet below you before starting.
You will now be living right in that zone of break that you've been fearing, right on that edge, and you can play in and out of it and have a lot of fun doing it. You can also watch your airspeed indicator, so you know exactly what it shows when you are at and around the break zone. I bet you'll find it's a lot slower than you've been thinking, and the break is much more gentle than you've been fearing. You can play with putting in and taking out a little power too, keeping yourself hanging just above the break, then letting it break, then recovering with some power and relaxed back pressure on the stick. There are a lot of variations you can play with, but the objective is to play around that break zone that you've been fearing during your landings.
Once you've lost maybe a couple thousand feet of altitude, go back up to your safe altitude and do it over and over. You'll realize what a sweet flying machine the -4 is, you'll lose your fear of when that break is coming (though still respect it), you'll get good practice keeping the nose straight with rudder, and you'll feel loads more confidence that the bottom isn't going to fall out before you expect it to when you come in for an actual landing on the runway.
PS: It's a lot of fun, and even easier, doing it without flaps too - you won't lose as much altitude. And make sure you received full dual instruction in stall recovery from a qualified instructor before doing successive stalls.
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I would like to add to the previous good advice; get some aerobatic training in a Citabria or Decathlon. It's FUN and will increase your ability and confidence.
When practicing the slow flight & stall as Precission recommends, also perform turns.
Bank into a 10 degree turn while nibbling at the stall. RV-4s are great maneuvering at slow speed, so you can get prepared for a nasty gust on final by slowing down to stall speed, roll into a turn, and then recover with power & control. When something weird happens on late final you will automatically do the right thing. You can accelerate out of a downdraft, or if you get cut out of the pattern by another plane, or if there are deer or children on the field etc.
Training is everything, and this training is FUN!
If you feel the beginning of a spin, stab in opposite rudder, the RV-4 will obey.
When practicing the slow flight & stall as Precission recommends, also perform turns.
Bank into a 10 degree turn while nibbling at the stall. RV-4s are great maneuvering at slow speed, so you can get prepared for a nasty gust on final by slowing down to stall speed, roll into a turn, and then recover with power & control. When something weird happens on late final you will automatically do the right thing. You can accelerate out of a downdraft, or if you get cut out of the pattern by another plane, or if there are deer or children on the field etc.
Training is everything, and this training is FUN!
If you feel the beginning of a spin, stab in opposite rudder, the RV-4 will obey.
daddyman
Well Known Member
wheels
f14av8er,
I like the smoothness of wheels.
Provided I have plenty of runway (>2,000 ft)
I use FULL flaps. I've tried others, but it just seems to add speed and a less desirable nose up position without them.
I too started with the whopping and enviable 11.9 hours before my RV-4.
Had the great and powerful Dave Austin teach me the ways of the RV he did.
Now with over 200 hrs in type, I still prefer wheels, but then again, I'm weird.
I save 3 points for short grass fields. Current min is 835 ft
Daddyman,
N262 DF
The Dream Flyer
dues paid
f14av8er,
I like the smoothness of wheels.
Provided I have plenty of runway (>2,000 ft)
I use FULL flaps. I've tried others, but it just seems to add speed and a less desirable nose up position without them.
I too started with the whopping and enviable 11.9 hours before my RV-4.
Had the great and powerful Dave Austin teach me the ways of the RV he did.
Now with over 200 hrs in type, I still prefer wheels, but then again, I'm weird.
I save 3 points for short grass fields. Current min is 835 ft
Daddyman,
N262 DF
The Dream Flyer
dues paid
1flyingyogi
Well Known Member
I also just got a -4 and have had only 4 hours of Citabria time and the check-out with Mike before I flew my -4. So far I've had 3 solo flights and two with a CFI friend in the back. Total of about 60 landings in my -4.
My CFI friend prefers wheel landings and when with him, we practiced about a dozen of them. Yesterday, I got up enough nerve to try them on my own solo. I did 4 and they weren't that bad. I think that after I get used to them I may even like them more than the three-pointers. So far I'm more comfortable with the 3-pointers just b/c I'm more familiar with them.
So my question is, how do you guys typically do your wheel landings? I normally approach like a three point but with a bit of power (instead of going to idle) very last moments before touch down, add a bit more power to slow the decent. I touch-down faster than three pointers, but when I get them right, they seem to touch smoother than three-pointers. They definitely eat up more run-way and feels harder on the tires and brakes. And I do them with full-flaps. How do you guys do them?
My CFI friend prefers wheel landings and when with him, we practiced about a dozen of them. Yesterday, I got up enough nerve to try them on my own solo. I did 4 and they weren't that bad. I think that after I get used to them I may even like them more than the three-pointers. So far I'm more comfortable with the 3-pointers just b/c I'm more familiar with them.
So my question is, how do you guys typically do your wheel landings? I normally approach like a three point but with a bit of power (instead of going to idle) very last moments before touch down, add a bit more power to slow the decent. I touch-down faster than three pointers, but when I get them right, they seem to touch smoother than three-pointers. They definitely eat up more run-way and feels harder on the tires and brakes. And I do them with full-flaps. How do you guys do them?
All the way back to idle, stage flaps as needed to full flaps on final. I fly all approaches at idle as a practice, every landing is a engine out! Begin the flare just above the runway to slow sink rate. Flare to level flight attitude let the wheels touch and rock forward just enough to pin the mains.
precession
Well Known Member
Wheel landings are done tail-low
There is nothing wrong with having in a bit of power to slow your descent rate in an RV-4 -- particularly with full flaps, which are like barn doors -- but don't make the mistake of thinking that because you're doing a wheel landing you HAVE to have some power in. You don't. You can do a wheel landing just fine with no power. On ANY landing (3-point or wheel) of course you need to be carrying enough speed, or power, or a combination of the two, that you can arrest your descent rate and touch down gently rather than too hard. (But most people try to land RVs too fast, rather than too slow.)
The most misleading thing anyone told me when I started trying to do wheel landings was that “with a wheel landing you fly it onto the runway," which meant you don't flare but rather fly it onto the runway in a flat, level attitude. Totally wrong! The way to wheel-land is to flare over the runway and get somewhat tail low. That arrests your descent. Then you aim to keep your main wheels just a foot or two over the pavement as your speed bleeds off, knowing that as it does the plane is going to settle lower, still in your tail low attitude. As you sink the last foot or two while tail low, your main wheels will touch. Obviously, you don’t want them to touch so hard that you tend to bounce back up in the air. You are aiming to touch on them gently, and as soon as you feel them touch you need to push your stick forward enough to keep them down and roll straight ahead. That means that when you push your stick forward you are going from a tail-low attitude to a more level attitude.
Now obviously you can come in so tail-low, and keep pulling the stick back so much, that when you touch down it will be a 3 pointer, or maybe you’ll even touch the tail wheel first. So there is a balance here. But my main point is don’t be fooled into thinking that you don’t flare and get tail low when doing a wheel landing. You do - you can be tail low, but just not so tail low that your tail wheel will hit when the mains hit. Once I realized that, my wheel landings came together.
I find that when I’m in the flare it’s totally up to me whether I want to (a) keep the stick coming back and make it a 3 point landing, or (b) hold the airplane tail low and then push the stick forward when the mains touch to make it a wheel landing. I use full flaps on both, and almost always do wheel landings because you have more of a tendency to bounce on a 3 point landing, particularly if your -4 has the shorter gear. (I always land on pavement but would probably do 3 pointers on grass, unless I was sure it was really smooth.)
There is nothing wrong with having in a bit of power to slow your descent rate in an RV-4 -- particularly with full flaps, which are like barn doors -- but don't make the mistake of thinking that because you're doing a wheel landing you HAVE to have some power in. You don't. You can do a wheel landing just fine with no power. On ANY landing (3-point or wheel) of course you need to be carrying enough speed, or power, or a combination of the two, that you can arrest your descent rate and touch down gently rather than too hard. (But most people try to land RVs too fast, rather than too slow.)
The most misleading thing anyone told me when I started trying to do wheel landings was that “with a wheel landing you fly it onto the runway," which meant you don't flare but rather fly it onto the runway in a flat, level attitude. Totally wrong! The way to wheel-land is to flare over the runway and get somewhat tail low. That arrests your descent. Then you aim to keep your main wheels just a foot or two over the pavement as your speed bleeds off, knowing that as it does the plane is going to settle lower, still in your tail low attitude. As you sink the last foot or two while tail low, your main wheels will touch. Obviously, you don’t want them to touch so hard that you tend to bounce back up in the air. You are aiming to touch on them gently, and as soon as you feel them touch you need to push your stick forward enough to keep them down and roll straight ahead. That means that when you push your stick forward you are going from a tail-low attitude to a more level attitude.
Now obviously you can come in so tail-low, and keep pulling the stick back so much, that when you touch down it will be a 3 pointer, or maybe you’ll even touch the tail wheel first. So there is a balance here. But my main point is don’t be fooled into thinking that you don’t flare and get tail low when doing a wheel landing. You do - you can be tail low, but just not so tail low that your tail wheel will hit when the mains hit. Once I realized that, my wheel landings came together.
I find that when I’m in the flare it’s totally up to me whether I want to (a) keep the stick coming back and make it a 3 point landing, or (b) hold the airplane tail low and then push the stick forward when the mains touch to make it a wheel landing. I use full flaps on both, and almost always do wheel landings because you have more of a tendency to bounce on a 3 point landing, particularly if your -4 has the shorter gear. (I always land on pavement but would probably do 3 pointers on grass, unless I was sure it was really smooth.)
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1flyingyogi
Well Known Member
After a bit more practice, I'm getting quite comfortable with 3-pointers. And I've started doing more wheel landings. What I'm finding is that I'm getting best results when I have the power to idle or close to idle on final (depending on altitude, airspeed and distance to runway). And as I cross the threshold, I cut to idle, but just before touch-down, I add back in a hair of throttle and it really smooths the landings. I balance the throttle with elevator as needed. This is for the 3-pointers and for the wheel landings, I'm approaching in the same way, except that I keep in a bit more speed and add a bit more throttle in the final phases before touch-down. And I use the throttle to finely adjust my decent rate to set down the mains as softly as I can and then forward stick after the mains touch. I'm not sure if this is "text-book" technique, but it's working out quite well for me. =)
