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  #1  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:20 PM
mikefox mikefox is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 63
Default RV-17? What will it be?

Why the 17? Well, Iím thinking ahead to the future and a couple of iterations in electric and fuel cell technologies. A 15 and 16 model could be introduced before that time frame, and the time will be ready for a well proven new power plant.

This shift could be as significant as when Boeing moved into the jet age.

Paulís(AVweb) YouTube Video of the recent gathering of aviation enthusiasts in Germany got me thinking. He always has interesting things to say with a dry sense of humor which makes me laugh while being quite practical and realistic.

https://youtu.be/vIM3pgxHVIM

So what will be the new power plant for the RV-17 that will prove to be another Vanís industry leading plane? What is going to be used to lead the industry while being safe and fun to fly with the famous RV grin? What design will be best suited for this new power plant?

I would hope that brilliant minds might use this post as a spring board / challenge to offer up innovative and forward thinking ideas.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions, and blunt feedback are not only welcomed, but highly encouraged.
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:46 AM
tgmillso tgmillso is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 728
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If this Innolith crowd can make 1kW/kg batteries a reality, I calculate that a 3.5hr endurance RV isn't too far away.

https://insideevs.com/news/343771/in...nergy-density/

https://innolith.com/

I already have the solar panels on the hangar ready for it and hopefully before long I'll have a mid-life lycoming up for sale. I figure the best way I can help accelerate the development in the interim is buy an electric car and create further demand for lightweight, mass produced batteries.
I paid $1.78/liter for the last lot of BP98RON mogas I purchased, which will produce 2.36kWh/liter at a BSFC of 0.5lb/hp/hr, whereas 1kW of solar power cost me 8.5c to produce, so the aircraft will cost 1/9th the amount to run and is totally carbon neutral as the solar panels over their 5 years life (with 20 years left on the warranty) have already pumped way more power back into the grid than they ever took to produce.
My biggest fear is however that with an aircraft that costs so little to run and produces no pollution, I will get absolutely nothing done all day because I'll be too busy flying.

Tom
RV-7E (one day)
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  #3  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:07 AM
control control is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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I think we can jump on sooner than that.

I will be interested as soon as we can get a hybrid solution with battery capacity for 1 hour with another 4 hours from diesel/petrol. With that I will make at least 50% of my flights without consuming fuel...
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:02 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,084
Default Hybrid Analysis. The future is bright, but . . . lots of work to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by control View Post
I think we can jump on sooner than that.

I will be interested as soon as we can get a hybrid solution with battery capacity for 1 hour with another 4 hours from diesel/petrol. With that I will make at least 50% of my flights without consuming fuel...
You might want to do a little analysis on the hybrid concept. What is the operational cycle that supports the energy storage and recovery? Everything related to an efficient and effective system must do work. And that work must supports its literal weight in the system.

Pick some power and energy densities for you components, then start looking at electrical storage and when it is providing thrust value relative to various combinations of internal combustion and electrical power and reserve power (fuel).

On ground vehicles, energy recovery cycles range from little for over the road operations to a peak for stop and go operations. The IC power plant to electric power plant ratios gets smaller with the lower opportunity. Cycle times are extremely important! The longer the cycle the larger the electrical storage, and that is mass.

It is not yet possible to get battery storage to equal the energy or power density of liquid fuels. May never be according to theory.

Emissions are another factor. One must look at the emission/energy from production to final use to see what is better. For the USA electrical grid the Prius yields a total emissions reduction of 85% if that of a fully electric vehicle without the range limitation. The production cost is substantially less than the 15% emissions "penalty". One must look at the grid (and projected) to see when the specific emissions of interest for the grid reach the levels desired.

Have fun with this, I spent 10 years doing analyses of dozens of configurations including looking a IC power engines evolution and OTE - overall thermal efficiency.

The future is bright, but will not (can not) advance nearly as fast as one might think. There is a huge opportunity for engineers in this technical field.
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2019, 11:31 AM
jandetlefsen jandetlefsen is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 6
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Does this need a new airframe design for an electric plane?
One of the the most promising current project to develop an electric plane is the eFlyer from Bye Aerospace. It's using a kit plane as a base, the Arion Lightning. They replace the combustion engine with a small electric motor, and still have space in the front for half of the cells, the other half should have no issues finding place somewhere behind the seats. Pipistrel's Alpha Electro also splits the cells in the same way in two locations.

Jan
(some day builder)
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  #6  
Old 08-04-2019, 02:34 PM
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rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillL View Post
You might want to do a little analysis on the hybrid concept. What is the operational cycle that supports the energy storage and recovery? Everything related to an efficient and effective system must do work. And that work must supports its literal weight in the system.
...
On ground vehicles, energy recovery cycles range from little for over the road operations to a peak for stop and go operations. The IC power plant to electric power plant ratios gets smaller with the lower opportunity. Cycle times are extremely important! The longer the cycle the larger the electrical storage, and that is mass.
I still think the most practical near-term application of hybrid propulsion in aircraft would be enabling super-STOL. A hybrid setup that allowed you to double or triple your effective thrust and possibly vector some of that thrust, even for only 5-10 minutes, could really make short-field or near-VTOL operation possible. Save a minute or two of battery reserve and now you have a way to stretch a glide or assure a safe emergency landing if your gas-burner dies. You could recharge your batteries on the ground, or slowly over the course of your flight.

Heck, take a fixed-wing airplane and graft some electric rotors on it (like breeding it with a quadcopter) and now you have VTOL with a usable cruise, albeit at the expense of a bit of drag and practically requiring fly-by-wire, at least during rotorborne flight.
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  #7  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:00 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgmillso View Post
If this Innolith crowd can make 1kW/kg batteries a reality, I calculate that a 3.5hr endurance RV isn't too far away.
That said, if this switch is going to parallel the way the automotive industry has switched, you don't need a 3.5hr endurance to jump-start it. People are happily buying electric cars with half- to quarter-range compared to the gasoline equivalents, because they realize 99% of their trips won't even make a dent in that reduced range.

Think how many pilots happily only make a 1/2-hour or 1-hour flight a few times a month, and rarely if ever go long distances. Or consider aerobatic aircraft, that only fly a 15 minute routine (plus climb-out and standby time, and reserve, etc). There are a lot of places where the current technology could be used. I think the "range anxiety" parallel with the automotive world is quite prevalent here as well.
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