Time to start wiring my panel, where to begin?

So, I've been putting this off, but I have to get started with my panel. Frankly, I feel very intimidated by it all! So, I figured I would ask for all y'alls experience on what are probably some very basic questions for most of ya! Basically, I don't know where to begin. Here are my questions:

• I need to buy wire. I am guessing for the EFIS and its components, I need 18 ga. Should I just buy a few 100' roles of various colors? If so, I am seeing the best price on SteinAir. Any other wire I should buy to get started?
• What is the sequence you guys installed the avionincs? Did you just cut out the panel for your main EFIS then start installing around it?
• What/Where did you get your circuit breakers and switches?
• What/Where did you get your bus bars?
• What other miscellaneous electrical parts should I buy to get started?
• Can I run 18 ga to the auto pilot servos and the GMU44 if it is located in the tail?
• Any other words of wisdom you can give me?

Sorry for the generic questions, but as you can tell, I really don't know where to begin. Unlike the airframe build, there is really no step by step guidance in this part!

Thank you so much! See below for equipment:

1 - Garmin G3X Touch GDU460 (leaving space to add a second later)
GTX23ES Remote mount transponder
GTR200 Comm
26C Internal mount GPS antenna
GSA28 Auto pilot servos
GMU44
Leaving space in the middle to later mount a IFR Navigator

RV7 - Tip Up
IOX370 from Titan being built with EFII Ignitions and Fuel Injection

Stein Air

I had Stein Air create most of the wiring harnesses for my system. There will be plenty of opportunities for me to finish off the rest of the wiring and learn how to do this, but I think delegating this part of the project saved me MAJOR time. The harnesses are very high quality. I work in the electronics industry and our engineers were very impressed with the work Stein's team produced. I personally did not want to have numerous issues (that I potentially created) by doing this on my own. The other nice thing about having these harnesses, is it provides a tangible example for me to see on my bench when trying to do this on my own. Great service and products by Stein Air.

Another big plus for simplifying this process is the Vertical Power VPX (also advertising on this site). There is a great online planner and it draws a wiring diagram for you. This product consolidates much of the wiring process and allows assignment and diagnostics.

Good luck!

carrollcw said:

So, I've been putting this off, but I have to get started with my panel. Frankly, I feel very intimidated by it all! So, I figured I would ask for all y'alls experience on what are probably some very basic questions for most of ya! Basically, I don't know where to begin. Here are my questions:

• I need to buy wire. I am guessing for the EFIS and its components, I need 18 ga. Should I just buy a few 100' roles of various colors? If so, I am seeing the best price on SteinAir. Any other wire I should buy to get started?
• What is the sequence you guys installed the avionincs? Did you just cut out the panel for your main EFIS then start installing around it?
• What/Where did you get your circuit breakers and switches?
• What/Where did you get your bus bars?
• What other miscellaneous electrical parts should I buy to get started?
• Can I run 18 ga to the auto pilot servos and the GMU44 if it is located in the tail?
• Any other words of wisdom you can give me?

Sorry for the generic questions, but as you can tell, I really don't know where to begin. Unlike the airframe build, there is really no step by step guidance in this part!

Thank you so much! See below for equipment:

1 - Garmin G3X Touch GDU460 (leaving space to add a second later)
GTX23ES Remote mount transponder
GTR200 Comm
26C Internal mount GPS antenna
GSA28 Auto pilot servos
GMU44
Leaving space in the middle to later mount a IFR Navigator

RV7 - Tip Up
IOX370 from Titan being built with EFII Ignitions and Fuel Injection

Click to expand...

First, Get some help - since I bought a panel/components from Stein, I used them as a consultant.

Second. Create your own book. Lots of decisions, if you use color, what is your scheme? is it conventional? Black=ground red=hot etc - keep in mind colors are not available in all sizes. So -make a list of all decisions and what guidelines you will use, make a book for selecting sire sizes so you won't have to repeat the selection process.

Third - Lock down where your components will go. Some vendors will make a solid model for you with the exact location/orientation of all the hard boxes. This will allow you select wire routing paths. Know these intimately. Consider making a buck (see this thread http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=108913 ) so you can route your wires neatly, get tons of cheap zip ties - I used white to know to remove them. Using lacing is very cheap, reliable and very neat, some is very sticky so I used black.

Get good tools, Stein sells some high value tools. There are many that look like his but his work. Tiny snips, good crimpers, strippers etc. A good soldering gun (temperature controlled) , heat gun too.

Depending on how you do this you may want to label your wires. Experiment and get a good system. I bought a Rhino printer, and it prints on shrink tubing. But the clear tubing with laser printed labels would have fewer limitations and much lower cost. The Rhino needs many different size tubings and the cartridges are not cheap.

It seems overwhelming, I have been to that cliff many times, just start at what you want the finish product to be, and list what is needed to achieve that. It is a complex job, but done with many simple steps.

Too much for now. Good Luck the finished product will be rewarding.

It's time for some serious sit-down panel planning. If you just start cutting, your panel will likely end up looking and feeling disorganized. Plan the panel for your flow - in other words, the way and sequence you'll use the switches and instruments in flight. If you are familiar with any CAD programs, great, that's a good start. If not, pick one and learn to use it, find someone who can help, or at least download the trial version of XPanel or other software designed for this task.

Get the general layout the way you want it, then submit to the forum if you wish for critique.

Next, download and read The AeroElectric Connection by Bob Nuckolls.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf

You'll find tons of references to this book and the various mis-spellings of Bob's last name in the forums here.

Choose the "Z-diagram" in the book that most closely matches the way you want your airplane to be configured. Use that as a starting point and draw your own wiring digram for your particular airplane. Read all the manuals for your avionics concerning wiring interconnects, power requirements, etc, and choose your wire gauge based on the power requirement and length. (This will all be explained in the AeroElectric Connection book.)

I found it a great help when wiring my panel to make a book of electrical system drawings, covering every single power, ground, interconnect.... every single piece of wire that will be needed in the plane. Then and only then it's time to order wire, breakers, etc.

Stein and B&C have just about anything you will need, including tools. Another source for bulk wire (100 feet or more at a time) is Skygeek. Not the quickest shipping, but it was about the cheapest I could find.

Lastly, ask lots of questions and, if possible, get help from those who have gone before you.

Good luck!

Don't assume you need 18 ga wire everywhere; it will be both expensive and heavy (and won't even fit in most of the connectors you'll be using).

As others mentioned, you need to design the physical panel layout, but you also need to decide on power distribution philosophy and also actual signal line routing.

Even if you farm out the harnesses, you should find this site very useful to help understand the whats & whys.
http://aeroelectric.com/

He publishes a great book that covers almost every conceivable issue in wiring an a/c, and it includes 'concept' wiring diagrams you can use in designing your own system. He (and other members) also offer support on the aeroelectric email list run by Matt Dralle. You can subscribe here:
[URL="http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/"]http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/[/URL

Charlie
edit: looks like Kurt beat me to it. Get that book!

I went with Van's harness as a starting point. It was a good way to get all the basic power distribution done without getting overwhelmed. It includes most switches and breakers that you will need, minus a few. Their design uses combination switch/circuit breakers for many of the circuits, which keeps things fairly simple. The harness was really designed for steam gauges, so you will need to buy or make harnesses for most new equipment. I found that making your own harnesses isn't really that hard if you double check all your pins and document everything. One thing I would do different is use a forest of ground tabs rather than the #8 screws and ring terminals Vans has you use. I also added a 6-slot fuse block that I use to run small wires to power things like map lights and USB power ports.

Call stein and ask for all the tools you'll need. You'll also want a bunch of extra insulated terminals (ring, PIDG, etc).
Most wire will be 20 or 22 awg I have found, 18 only for longer run to the wings for landing lights and such. d-sub connectors take 20-24 gauge so most of your avionics will use that.

For the design, once you have all your equipment decided on, you can make templates to tape on the panel, or use a CAD program. I used X-panel to get a rough design, and then worked with Bill and UpNorth Aviation to finalize and then cut my panel; he was great to work with.

Be mindful of what's behind your panel and how far back things go. I ended up cutting holes in my subpanel and adding a support for the 430W tray, and also needed holes for the D10 and some other things. A pic is below.

Plan how you are going to run wires to the wings and tail. I used manual trim which took up almost one entire bulkhead pass-through. I have two magnetometers in the baggage area, and ended up making my own combined harness out of 10-conductor cable to run them both - took up less space. Between all the wires and also pitot/static/aoa, it is easy to run out of main bulkhead pass-throughs if you aren't creative.

Go slowly and wire and power one piece of equipment at a time. I use a label maker to make label flags for all the wires I added; the wires in the vans harness have labels already. I used the same label maker with white print on clear tape to make panel labels and was very happy with the results.

Chris

Im going to add my vote for having Stein put together your wiring harness. Or at the very least have him build you a wiring diagram that includes all of your avionics. It was a HUGE help to me and I was surprise at how much I learned about wiring and technique by seeing professional work and verifying the pin outs were correct.

Stein is a fantastic resource, highly recommend them.

Also, you have an RV friendly avionics guy not too far away IIRC. You might be able to pick up some help with things from him.

Electrical drawings from Vans

Start first with the electrical OP drawings
From Vans. These will be a good start to get your
Head around a basic panel and electrical layout for your plane.
If you don't want multiple breakers on your panel,
Use fuse blocks powered off breaker switches off your main bus.
One for instruments, one for radio equip. Learn about wire sizing, voltage drop over the length of the wire and breaker sizing appropriate for the wire Gage.
Amps x Volts= watts. As far as making harness's for EFIs/radios etc. buy the wire and
Tools from Stein and follow the pin out diagrams from the manuf. of the equipment. Most of these are in
22/24 gauge and some 18. It seems daunting at first but when you do it , it's a great feeling of accomplishment and learning.
Don't buy 100' rolls. Do buy 22 and 18g black and red wire for your power source and grounds. 22 and 18 White wire for other runs.
Some 16 and 14 for longer runs. 8g and larger will be spelled out in the Vans drawings.
.

carrollcw said:

Frankly, I feel very intimidated by it all!

Click to expand...

I was in your shoes a little over a year ago. I wanted to do all (or close to all) of the wiring myself despite having little experience. Before I cut or crimped any wire, here's most of what I did for about 2 months.

• Bought and read Bob's aeroelectric connection and everything else he has published on the web.
• Read the install manuals for all my panel parts. Especially Vertical Power and Dynon.
• Ordered and studied the electrical plans from Van's.
• Lots of searches on VAF.
• Searched google every way I could think of for avionics install pictures.
• Looked at a couple of RV-7s firewall forward.
• Visited often with an experimental friendly avionics tech. Took pictures and asked many question. Looked at his work in progress on certified.
• Visited websites (usually the manufacturer's) that discussed terminal crimping and standards.
• Bought quality tools. Mostly on ebay and some from Stein and B&C.

After I ran out of excuses, I ordered most of my wire and supplies from B&C plus Stein and Aircraft Spruce. Ended up taking 6 months but I now know more than I ever thought possible about aircraft wiring and no magic smoke has escaped yet.

OK, a dissenting opinion here. Perhaps not dissenting but slightly different.

Having Stein wire your harness will no doubt result in a high quality product, but it's not likely to be perfect since the human factor is involved. Nobody's perfect. Nobody.

By designing and wiring your own harness you will have an intimate knowledge of what interface is connected from box A to box B. This doesn't mean much until the day you're flying along, punching buttons and saying "now why can't I make this work?" If you know which box is supplying data to another box, you understand why you can't, for instance, get your autopilot to couple to vertical guidance approach from your second EFIS.

One additional point... As an owner of a pre-fabricated panel (not Stein but similar quality from a known business which does this as their primary business), and as a guy who is trying to update it from a VFR to IFR-capable panel, I've spent far too much time trying to figure out what's wired to what. I could have wired it from scratch in less time than it's taken to second-guess the orginal pre-fabricator's thinking.

If you have confidence of your abilities, get Stein to make up basic harnesses and do the rest yourself.

If you are less confident when it comes to avionics, get in touch with Approach Systems for their hub system.

approachfaststack.com/hubs.html

We used them for our 7 and were not disappointed.

Had some stuff adapted after initial fit - they were bob on !

Assuming you have decided what avionics you want, print out full scale images of them, tape them to your panel, sit in the airplane in your actual seat position, and go "fly". You may find certain switches are too hard to reach, some displays too hard to read. This is your chance to customize a panel to fit you. I found I wanted to lower my PFD, to fit my bifocals.
You absolutely want to label every wire, even if it's just a simple piece of sticky tape. Otherwise you'll end up wiring 5 red wires to circuit breakers, and wondering which wire powers what.

Planning, it is all about planning

I mocked up the panel and made sure everything would fit where I wanted it. I then put that mockup in front of my weight machine where I would stare at it every day. Once I was set on the location, switches, etc. (Push button vs. key switch, split master vs. dual switches, etc.)

Once I knew what was going to go in my panel, I made a spreadsheet which listed every item. This included all the instruments, panel lights, cabin lights, position lights, landing & taxi lights, power ports, etc. Every thing you can possibly think of should go as a separate line item in your list.

Then look up each manual and determine what size fuse/breaker each should have. Put that in a separate column. Next was wire size, again in a separate column. Remember, wire size can vary by length, the longer it is the thicker the wire needs to be.

Once I knew what I wanted/needed, I figured out if any could share the same circuit and if it was wise to share the same circuit. In the end, I put everything on its own breaker.

Then I drew my schematic using Microsoft Visio. It took three pages, one was the main system, the second was the Avionics Buss, and the third contained the Always Hot Buss.

With the spreadsheet, schematic, mockup in hand, I ordered the breakers, switches, etc. and went to work.

One tip, while laying out your breakers, if you are going to use breakers, on the back of your panel, plan on adding some extra breakers and drill 1/2 way through your panel on the back side. That way, if you do need to add some more circuits, the spacing is already there and you will be able to finish drilling those holes from the backside, at some time in the future.

VPX

I went with the VPX sport and VPX wiring kit from Stein. The VPX planner simplified things for me. The VPX addresses so many more things than just the breakers. Wiring is a challenge but is very rewarding when you finish and realize everything you have learned!

Lots of great advice here. I just want to add one thing. After you get everything planned, have a schematic, wires and all the parts, don't let the whole intimidate you. Take it one wire at a time, route it, terminate both ends, double and triple check the plan/schematic, and then move on to the next wire. One wire at a time is easy to deal with, then move on to the next. Then move on to the next, etc. before you know it, it'll be done! And, you'll feel great about all you've learned and done!

First Thing? Invite Dave (and Avril) over for dinner and then get Dave to sit and talk about panel and electrical planning. He's done this before, and he's two doors down....probably has a lot of tools you might need too.

I like building my own harnesses, but then, I have accumulated all fo the right tools over the years. For the avionics interconnects, you're going to need a detailed, wire-by-wire drawing before you cut wire one - so do the research and figure that out from the manuals - or get Stein to provide you one. Personally, I'd rather pay $200 for the wiring diagram by someone who has done it before than $200 to have someone cut holes in the panel - that's pretty easy.

If you're truly starting from ground zero, put the tools down - you have several months of serious planning to do. If you've already done a lot of that planning, you have a head start. Physical mounting is first, then wiring - then smoke testing.

Call Stein and tell him we used to be neighbors. Oh, wait a minute....he might not take your call that way....

EAA videos

I think you should also watch the EAA videos on wiring topics and you might want to take their weekend class. It is fun and informative.

I dreaded getting started on wiring because I felt overwhelmed. Get somebody that knows what they're doing to help get you get started (thanks Jim Gray). Plan...Plan....Plan.... I fought Jim on this but he insisted and he was absolutely correct. You need to establish the big plan before you start on the little jobs. It's going to take 3X longer than you want and 4 times longer than you expect. In the end it was VERY satisfying. Commit to enjoy this phase.

Note the neatness of the harness...That is Jim Gray's work and what he insisted on from me for the rest of the Job


Blue tape is your friend keeping labels on bundles and individual wires




Just about done....

Bob

Thanks everyone for all the great advice! I knew I could get some great help here!

Yesterday I went ahead and cut my panel for my efis and gtr200 comm. I also modified my sub panel to allow future component install (all the ifr navigators need at least 11" of depth).

I also downloaded on my iPad "icircuit" to start drawing out the circuits. Anyone else use an iPad app to design their circuits? Is there a better app?

I have already read the aeroelectric connection book, but I am going to start modifying Z-19 (dual battery, single alternator, electronic ignition & injection) for my specific needs.

I realized after I posted this that I did receive the installation kits for all the components from Stein. It included the appropriate wire. So that should get me started.

Thanks again everyone, and keep the great advice coming!

Wiring

When I do an aircraft. I start with a complete easy to read drawing, that covers the entire system in great detail. Take time to produce this dwg first. It will save many headaches, it's easy to erase and redraw on paper, not so easy to redo wiring. ,Be sure to label EVERY wire on both ends, if you need to recut a wire after labeling, take time to RELABEL it. This will save you many headaches later.i usually start with the big heavy wires first then work on busses and branch circuits one at a time. Then avionics. A cheap and great way to label wires without any fancy printer and special labels is to make a word doc with all the wire labels printed out. Cut them and slide them under clear heat shrink on the wire and shrink it. It's a little tedious but works very well. You will have good satisfaction doing it yourself and know more about your airplane when done.

Bird

I will echo what has been said so far, there is a lot of great advice here.I will only add a couple of things. I have a Bee 3+ labeler that has been worth its weight in gold. It will make shrink tube labels. Label everything as you go. If you get off your project for awhile it makes it a lot easier to get going again.
Also I started out with colored wire as mentioned above but as things went along I would be short on the size or color I needed so I started color coding them with various color Sharpies on each end. This seems to work pretty good, just smear some color on the wire.

Jim Weir in Kitplanes some time ago gave a good method of marking wires. Number every wire using prefix numbers for different area such as starter No1 charge No2 etc, followed by a number for each wire. Use the colours for resistor values as the number codes and use colour sharpies on clear shrink wrap with colour bars. I will see if I can find the article. Only problem for me was getting colour sharpies.

I found color Sharpies in the office and school dept at Walmart. They came in an assortment pack.

Avionics Wiring Schematic

Hi All,

So I created my power wiring diagram in Dassault DraftSight (https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/free-download/) by taking one of Bob Nuckolls DXF files and modifying it accordingly. Not too bad.
The issue now is I have committed myself to wiring the avionics (you built the aeroplane, so your illogical brain says if I can build it and paint it, why can't I work out how to wire it). I'm not too concerned about the wiring side of it, however I see the current stumbling block being the development of the full wiring diagram. I have ordered my avionics, which is essentially a relatively simple all Garmin G3X/GTN625 IFR arrangement, and reviewing the comprehensive manual the wiring seems relatively straightforward. The only problem is creating the "as built" wiring diagram so that I have this for the future records of the aircraft. The 40 pages or so of applicable wiring diagrams in the manual are great, however for my relatively simplistic setup, there is a lot of redundant information. I have looked at downloading and modifying in DraftSight the RV-12 G3X wiring diagram made available from Van's (https://www.vansaircraft.com/public/downloads.htm) however this seems like a monstrous task. It's a pity that Garmin hasn't got some type of application where you can put in your equipment list and it spits out an applicable wiring schematic... or do they and I just don't know about it?
Does anyone have a more efficient way of making this avionics schematic development process a little faster so I can get back to doing the physical work, or am I left with modifying this in a painstakingly slow fashion using CAD software not really refined for the task?
Thanks

tgmillso said:

The issue now is I have committed myself to wiring the avionics (you built the aeroplane, so your illogical brain says if I can build it and paint it, why can't I work out how to wire it).

Click to expand...

As for an as-built wiring diagram, in my experience, you don't need to document need every wire for every CAN bus connection, power, ground, etc. What I did was to document at which port every RS232 and ARINC 429 line started and stopped etc, but not the individual wires. Individual wire connections can be looked up in the installation manual, once you know which port goes where. The highly detailed G3X RV-12 diagram obscures the system architecture, and you'll need to create that. I also recorded all component serial numbers.

Other folks will have better comments than I, but here are a few, based on working with a friend (who has an extensive avionics background) who upgraded my panel with the second G3X screen:
* The G3X installation manual is comprehensive, impressively so, but it is written for those already familiar with avionics and especially with Garmin equipment. The learning curve will be high and steep, much of that from learning what is where in the installation guides;
* There are gazillions of options. You'll need to make decisions about things you've never heard of, I suspect;
* Just connecting the wires isn't enough. You'll also have to worry about ground loops. Don't forget service loops;
* You will need the appropriate crimp tool (serious bucks here).

If you are doing this entirely on your own (and I don't know your background, so YMMV), with no support (on site, not phone support) and no avionics background, your chance of success is slim to none. You may get things to power up without letting any smoke out of the boxes, but that's not success, especially if you're going IFR.

If it were me, I'd buy a harness already wired. I've had great results working with Stein.

Sorry to be discouraging, but...

Ed

Thanks Ed. I probably made things sound a little less prepared than I am. I'm an aerospace engineer and have been working with electronics on a variety of projects for many years, however I have just never wired an avionics stack before. I've got all the crimping tools required, and have developed a comprehensive spreadsheet covering every single wire and connector aft of the panel, as I'm color coding everything aft of this point and I'm terminating things at a couple of D-Subs so that the entire avionics harness can be easily removed if necessary in the future. I've read through the entire G3X manual and have a pretty solid understanding of it, it really is just this final wiring diagram for the harness under the panel. If you're telling me that comprehensive wire by wire diagram is not necessary, then that's great and I'll just build a single line diagram and add the pinouts and associated wire specs/grounding requirements to my spreadsheet. I do agree that the all-in diagrams provided by Van's for the G3X are like trying to trace a plate of spaghetti, and the individual segmented diagrams provided in the G3X manual are much easier to understand.
Cheers.
Tom.

tgmillso said:

SNIP I do agree that the all-in diagrams provided by Van's for the G3X are like trying to trace a plate of spaghetti, and the individual segmented diagrams provided in the G3X manual are much easier to understand.
Cheers.
Tom.

Click to expand...

Yep - such diagrams that fill the paper with lines that are way too hard to follow from point A to point B are not very useful, but they sure look pretty. I found the RV-14 wiring diagrams that came with the kit overly complicated for practical use.

Three airplanes and the most valuable document I made is identifying what pin goes to what on each connector. While labeling wires is fine, it is not nearly as practical as a simple Word document that lists each connector, or each Avionics tray pin. It also comes in real handy when doing your panel upgrade.

Carl

tgmillso said:

I'm an aerospace engineer and have been working with electronics on a variety of projects for many years, however I have just never wired an avionics stack before. I've got all the crimping tools required...

Click to expand...

Sounds like you're good to go! A big project, but you've done several already.

Enjoy!

Ed

By the way, I'm anticipating that my avionics interconnect cheat sheet will be published in Sport Aviation. I'll know for sure when I see it in print.

Ed

Carl Froehlich said:

Yep - such diagrams that fill the paper with lines that are way too hard to follow from point A to point B are not very useful, but they sure look pretty. I found the RV-14 wiring diagrams that came with the kit overly complicated for practical use.

Click to expand...

Don't know about any specific diagram like this, but it's probably a result of trying to cram too much information onto a single diagram, rather than making separate diagrams (a main architecture diagram with simplified connections, then one for each system or even for more complex subsystem interconnections, etc.). I think I ended up with about 15 or so separate schematics (using Express-SCH)...busses, engine, network, EFIS-GPS interconnects, exterior lights, interior lights, EMS, etc., and then the ones from Stein for the NAV/COMs and audio panel.

It's a lot more wire than I initially thought, but looking at a single system at a time makes it easier to diagram out.

Three airplanes and the most valuable document I made is identifying what pin goes to what on each connector. While labeling wires is fine, it is not nearly as practical as a simple Word document that lists each connector, or each Avionics tray pin. It also comes in real handy when doing your panel upgrade.

Click to expand...

Yep...but where labelling wires *really* helps out is in diagnosing issues or rewiring something. Instead of trying to read tiny D-sub pin/socket numbers you can just look through the wire bundle for the one that's labelled what you need, or quickly find the specific ground wire for a device on your forest of tabs grounding block, etc.

I find it faster, easier and more intuitive to draw my schematics from scratch rather than salvage someone else's diagrams. I also start with a pencil and a big chief tablet and brainstorm up what I believe are the proper interconnects. There is always one component in the wrong place for a clean diagram and a chance for errors. By starting on paper I can make notes about how it can be improved etc. I only spend a few minutes with the paper and don't try to make lines straight or look nice. I draw circles or rectangles for each component like blobs. Then I move on to CAD and it goes much better referencing the chicken scratch pencil rough cut drawings. Every time I redraw one of my schematics it gets better and having the first big picture in pencil has me going down the right path quicker on CAD.

Jim