Van's Air Force
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Group Buy for RV-10
- Thread starter prporter
- Start date
Hooked on Crack
Based on what I know about Vans as a company. I seriously doubt they would even entertain the thought. Might want to call and ask "Man in charge" before getting hopes up for this idea. Most crack dealers dont have to advertise to make the sale
Vans knows this...
After building my first RV I would have to say I'm hooked on crack now.
-Jeff
Based on what I know about Vans as a company. I seriously doubt they would even entertain the thought. Might want to call and ask "Man in charge" before getting hopes up for this idea. Most crack dealers dont have to advertise to make the sale
Vans knows this...After building my first RV I would have to say I'm hooked on crack now.
-Jeff
Not that I know of <grin>.prporter said:
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ScottSchmidt
Well Known Member
Don't take it from Van's
The kit from from Van's is the best money you will ever spend on an aircraft. Don't try to nickle and dime him. He can't even buy a new watch for hecks sake.
Look to the engine, prop, and avioincs for the discounts. That is where the value starts to take a nose dive. The margins in these areas have to be off the charts. And I'm not talking about Stein and Aerosport, it is the guys who make and sell the parts. No one can tell me that it really costs $40,000 to make an IO-540 when you can buy an engine, with twice the parts, and 3 times the horsepower from Rousch at 1/3 the price.
Write the check and once you have the first flight you will spend the rest of your life with a smile on your face.
The kit from from Van's is the best money you will ever spend on an aircraft. Don't try to nickle and dime him. He can't even buy a new watch for hecks sake.
Look to the engine, prop, and avioincs for the discounts. That is where the value starts to take a nose dive. The margins in these areas have to be off the charts. And I'm not talking about Stein and Aerosport, it is the guys who make and sell the parts. No one can tell me that it really costs $40,000 to make an IO-540 when you can buy an engine, with twice the parts, and 3 times the horsepower from Rousch at 1/3 the price.
Write the check and once you have the first flight you will spend the rest of your life with a smile on your face.
Kevin Horton
Well Known Member
Sure, the incremental cost (i.e. the cost of labour and materials) to produce one more IO-540 is probably very low. But, you are also paying for all the engineers, project managers required to support the type certification process, and you are helping pay for the manufacturer's insurance and lawyers.ScottSchmidt said:
Kevin Horton said:
I'd go along with the lawyer and insurance costs here as a huge chunk especially with what has happened in the last 4 years but the basic engineering and development/ tooling costs were paid for decades ago on this engine. Textron is always buying newer machining centers and the like and doing more QC, something has to pay for those things.
I'd be thinking that the cost of IO-540s should be coming down however as Lycoming produces more to fill the RV10 market. Fat chance of that I suppose. Textron should be thanking Vans for all their business. Let's see, probably sold around 7-8000 engines, average price maybe $25K- $180M!
vmirv8bldr
Well Known Member
Welcome to capitalism
We enjoy a mostly free-market society. That means products generally sell for exactly what we are willing to pay for them. Period. The only time lawyers, insurance, etc come into play is when deciding whether or not to enter the business in the first place. If consumers are not willing to pay the price you "must" charge, then they won't, and all the lawyer and insurance fees are irrellevant.
Why does a can of coke cost $0.60 in a vending machine? Certainly some water, corn sugar, caramel color, caffeine, and flavors don't cost that much! Well, it's because that's what people are willing to put in the machine in order to drink one. That's also why they cost more at airports. Less competition lets them increase the price...again to the point people are still willing to pay.
(Ok, there are complexities around this, but in general, this law applies to pretty much everything in a free-market society.)
Personally, I think Van's is priced right. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have sent all that money for the 8. I also think Spam Cans ARE overpriced, so I'm not going to buy one of them, at least now new.
Manufacturers give discounts to groups because it potentially reduces variability in sales and labor in kitting a batch. I don't think Van has much trouble in that area.
I say go for it, but don't expect much. Van knows you'll probably still buy the thing anyway. In which case, he need not budge. But it never hurts to ask.
Good luck!
We enjoy a mostly free-market society. That means products generally sell for exactly what we are willing to pay for them. Period. The only time lawyers, insurance, etc come into play is when deciding whether or not to enter the business in the first place. If consumers are not willing to pay the price you "must" charge, then they won't, and all the lawyer and insurance fees are irrellevant.
Why does a can of coke cost $0.60 in a vending machine? Certainly some water, corn sugar, caramel color, caffeine, and flavors don't cost that much! Well, it's because that's what people are willing to put in the machine in order to drink one. That's also why they cost more at airports. Less competition lets them increase the price...again to the point people are still willing to pay.
(Ok, there are complexities around this, but in general, this law applies to pretty much everything in a free-market society.)
Personally, I think Van's is priced right. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have sent all that money for the 8. I also think Spam Cans ARE overpriced, so I'm not going to buy one of them, at least now new.
Manufacturers give discounts to groups because it potentially reduces variability in sales and labor in kitting a batch. I don't think Van has much trouble in that area.
I say go for it, but don't expect much. Van knows you'll probably still buy the thing anyway. In which case, he need not budge. But it never hurts to ask.
Good luck!
Kevin Horton
Well Known Member
I should have also included Continuing Airworthiness costs - i.e. the cost of engineering time to investigate reports of problems in service, develop ADs, etc. I work for Transport Canada in the Aircraft Certification side. The percentage of my time that is spent on Continuing Airworthiness issues vs the time spent certifying new designs is steadily increasing. If you have a huge number of engines in service, but not too many sales of new engines, you have to generate a lot of revenue on each new sale to help pay for the costs to support the engines you sold 30 years ago. This also tends to drive parts prices up.rv6ejguy said:
Kevin Horton said:
Correct, but until about 4-5 years ago, Textron did not appear to be spending much on this aspect as very little had changed on these engines for so long. Along came crank problems, bolt problems, cam/crank gear problems, piston pin plug problems and the occasional flat camshaft/ lifter problem. Almost all of these could be traced to a change in process control or materials specs. I'd really like to see the oversight studies done by Textron and the FAA when so many changes were made, seemingly without proper validation.
So, yes, they are probably spending a lot more now to make sure they deliver conforming products as good as the old days.
As someone brought up earlier, 40K for an engine? For most it is just the price of admission to the RV10 world, for others like me- no way Jose- I can buy 8 Sube engines with drives for this price or 3 LS2s- brand new in the crates with drives. I could afford the 540 but I'm not gonna give someone 40K for it.
The RV10 kit on the other hand is an exceptional deal. Amazing engineering and metal work for the price. I only wished they had a slider like a Tiger or Navion. I'm working on the cabin top and doors now and I'm not keen what they did there. 20 hours to vanquish the pinholes alone...argghhh. The rest is awesome!
I think the kit is a steal! I went from building 1/3 scale RC Models to building an RV-10. I did get a lot of help along the way but the kit and instructions are excellent! I just can't believe he can make them that cheap! I'm with Ross on this one. The IO-540 is by far the most overpriced item! If it weren't for Vans I probably would have never taken the chance to build a plane!
kevinsky18
Well Known Member
25-40K is over priced for an engine period. But they still sell them you say. . . so therefore they are not over priced is the rebuttal. ???
Counter to that of course is that they are only selling a small percentage of what they would if they were priced more along the lines of a car engine.
The kit market has grown in leaps and bounds because certified aircraft have priced themselves beyond the reach of many average Joes. It won't be long before the engines soon reach this plateau as well.
I've calculated that it will cost me roughly 80K to build my RV-8. That's a steal compared to 250k for a Cessna 172. But I still think 80K for plane is too much even for a certified one. So why am I here building this plane? Simple, I am in a lucky spot to be able to afford to do this, and I figure hey I can?t take the money with me when I die. But for everyone of us that can afford a 25-40K engine or 65-100K kit plane there are 100 other just as deserving and wanting soles who would be building too if the price for an engine was 5-10K like a new car engine.
And yes it's the cost of litigation that has driven the prices to where they are today. Everyone knows that. Anyone that doesn't know / believe that wasn't around in the 80's when a Cessna 152 when from 13k to 35K in a period of a few years. Or they are a lawyer themselves trying to burry their head in the sand in regards to their professions culpability in these vastly outrageous price tags we see today.
My rant is done for today lol
Counter to that of course is that they are only selling a small percentage of what they would if they were priced more along the lines of a car engine.
The kit market has grown in leaps and bounds because certified aircraft have priced themselves beyond the reach of many average Joes. It won't be long before the engines soon reach this plateau as well.
I've calculated that it will cost me roughly 80K to build my RV-8. That's a steal compared to 250k for a Cessna 172. But I still think 80K for plane is too much even for a certified one. So why am I here building this plane? Simple, I am in a lucky spot to be able to afford to do this, and I figure hey I can?t take the money with me when I die. But for everyone of us that can afford a 25-40K engine or 65-100K kit plane there are 100 other just as deserving and wanting soles who would be building too if the price for an engine was 5-10K like a new car engine.
And yes it's the cost of litigation that has driven the prices to where they are today. Everyone knows that. Anyone that doesn't know / believe that wasn't around in the 80's when a Cessna 152 when from 13k to 35K in a period of a few years. Or they are a lawyer themselves trying to burry their head in the sand in regards to their professions culpability in these vastly outrageous price tags we see today.
My rant is done for today lol
