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N Number scam - action needed

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The simple game plan would for everyone to stop buying these reserved numbers. Get any number, use vinyl lettering, wait for him to go out of biz and get the number when it's released again. Shouldn't take too long if no one's buying them anymore. Supply and demand.
 
The UK has a system for reserving registrations too.

You pay ?150 to reserve it for 6 months, it's not transferable. After 6 months you can either pay ?150 again, register it to your aircraft or abandon your reservation.

How do you think that would work here in the US?
 
This discussion has been very RV/homebuilt centric but the practice goes way beyond us. Manufacturers have been reserving large blocks of N-numbers since at least the 1940's. Many airlines did so as well to renumber their fleet. I have a friend with a Bonanza that had a number desired by a race car driver. He got a new interior and the number repainted. The practice is well ingrained. This is just a new twist.
 
This thread got me to thinking that I haven't got my notice to renew a number I've had reserved for 16 years.. First time I haven't gotten the notice. It's up in 7 days and I just renewed it... If anyone has a number that's due for a renew ya might want to check to see. Wouldn't want to lose it.
 
Has anyone contacted EAA and AOPA about this?

What action exactly would you like taken?

No matter what, there will be N-numbers that more than 1 person want. All except for 1 person will be unhappy.

1st come, first served? Great, for the 1st person. I highly doubt that most people on here complaining would have been the 1st to request those prized n-numbers.

Non-transferrable? Great, until I have an n-number you want, and we come to an agreement.

I can't see a solution that makes the same n-number available to everybody who wants it. Lot's of outrage but nobody has yet figured out how to change the laws of supply and demand.

The only way to make it 'fair' is to randomly assign 1 n-number per Airworthiness cert, non-transferrable. I'm sure the feds would be happy to oblige.


Chris
 
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This practice seems a lot like a private individual using public land (for grazing, mining, etc.) for free (or at below market rates) and then charging other private individuals to use that same public land.

Legal? Obviously. Entreprenuerial? You bet! An equitable use of a public resource? Not so much. And there is a difference between an airline reserving large blocks of numbers (for a legitimate purpose) and someone else doing it just to make money by selling the numbers to others.

Just my $.02.
 
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The simple game plan would for everyone to stop buying these reserved numbers. Get any number, use vinyl lettering, wait for him to go out of biz and get the number when it's released again. Shouldn't take too long if no one's buying them anymore. Supply and demand.
I like the way you think. :):)
 
And for those who suggest just buying them ALL up, and holding them hostage, my math indicates over 67 million possible N-numbers (more if we start using more letters). Let's assume (very) generously that 17 million are taken already. That's 50 million numbers at $10 a pop, so half a billion dollars to buy them all up.

This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.

There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.

To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.

Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.

There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:

http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm

Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
 
Manufacturers have been reserving large blocks of N-numbers since at least the 1940's.

FAR 47.15(4)(c):

(c) An aircraft manufacturer may apply to the Registry for enough U.S. registration numbers to supply estimated production for the next 18 months. There is no charge for this allocation of numbers.

So yes, they get blocks, but they are limited in how many they can get, and they don't get to pick and choose the numbers they get. They will be random. The issue at discussion here is the ability to pick an unlimited number of specific numbers and hold them indefinitely.
 
N Numbers

This is what the FAA said

This issue has been reviewed by our legal department and a determination has been made that this is not a matter that we can take action on. As of now, any entity may reserve an N-Number in their name for a one year period, and once the number is reserved there is no regulations dictating how they must use their reserved number.

Have a good day,
JC
 
This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.

There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.

To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.

Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.

There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:

http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm

Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.

And it would only work if one person had a monopoly on ALL the numbers and could name their price. In reality competition would drive down costs so that it would really only make sense to buy and sell the more in demand #s. And that's what is happening. Do you rearly think if your idea would work somebody wouldn't be doing it yet, especially for a mere 2.5 million per year?
Of course even then you could make it 36 times more expensive with the addition of one character.

7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution. Outlawing this guy would not make your preferred n number available to you. It would make it available to EVERYBODY who wanted it, and you'd still have to compete with them.
 
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Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.

The actual problem will come when the ten million US citizens (about 4% of the total) who genuinely fear and hate general aviation realize that if they band together and each put in a dollar, they can prevent any and all new registrations.
I presume that then the FAA would do something.
 
Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.
Then the FAA adds one letter to the registration process (N123ABC) and you go from about 1M combinations to about 35M that have to be reserved. Your costs skyrocketed while your ROI stayed the same. IMHO not a good business plan.

Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.
Exactly

:cool:
 
Bob you will care when you have to pay this guy $1500 just to get an N-number, any N-number, to register the RV-12 you just started.

Maybe. Lots of doom and gloom in the future. I'll worry about it in the future.

Hey, do you guys think I should prime these parts on the new RV-12 kit or should I just leave them the way they are?
 
This is what the FAA said

This issue has been reviewed by our legal department and a determination has been made that this is not a matter that we can take action on. As of now, any entity may reserve an N-Number in their name for a one year period, and once the number is reserved there is no regulations dictating how they must use their reserved number.

Have a good day,
JC

Sean also operates a auto renewal service that automatically renews his reserved N-numbers before the one year period is up. It has been mentioned in comments about waiting the "year" for the N-number you want to come back available from Short-N-Numbers. This is not the case, if Sean has the N-number you want he will always renew it and it will never become available.

I would also like to note that my guess is Sean's main clients are not home builders. My guess is Sean sells most of his short N-numbers to the corporate jet market. Most private jet owners want a short N-number and $1,500-3,500 is a drop in the bucket. Unfortunately even if Sean never sells an N-number to an experimental builder again he will most likely still make a 6-figure income selling required government licensing. Us home builders are the ones loosing out, we spend many years of our lives building an airplane to than not get a fair and equal change of getting a desirable N-number.
 
This is why people don't fully understand why aviation is so expensive.

There are 268,000 aircraft registered in the USA (all aircraft, including airliners). Not 17 million.

To contrast this, the world makes 90M cars a year. So we make as many cars in 1 day as there are airplanes in the USA. Aviation costs so much because the volume is effective zero.

Even crazier math- we make about 6,000 new planes a year, worldwide. That's how many cars we make in 30 minutes.

There are also only 915,000 N-Numbers. So you can reserve every single available one for about $6.5M per year. Just a hair more than buying a single Cessna Denali or Pilatus PC-12:

http://www.skytamer.com/5.4.htm

Of course, the issue is that if you can get $1,500 per N-number, there's only 2,000 new planes a year, so you only recover $3M of that. You'd need to get something like $5,000 per registration to make it profitable.

As noted, there aren't millions and millions of available N-numbers.

1-5 numbers: ~100,000 (rounding and ignoring things like you can't start with a 0, etc.)
1-4 numbers + 1 letter: 10000 * 24 (no I or O allowed): 240000
1-3 numbers + 2 letters: 1000 * 24 * 24: 576000

Total 916,000 N-numbers, give or take.

So if there are (rounding up again) around 300,000 registered aircraft, then I only have to buy up 616,000 N-numbers, at a total initial outlay of 6.2M.

Since N-numbers come up for renewal every 3 years, and assuming a pretty constant 300K that stay registered (or new registrations replacing ones that go dormant or expire), then my annual costs are going to be around 2M (1/3 of the 600K registrations).

First year of operations...8M. Subsequent years, 2M (more or less). Let's amortize 10 years of operations, for a total 10-year expense of 28M. Divvy that up by 2000 * 10, and 1500 per registration covers it with $100 of profit. Of course, I would probably charge more, like maybe 3K per registration (since I have a captive market, I can charge anything I want), and make a very handsome ROI.

I've produced nothing, uses someone else's resources (the government's/taxpayers), and enriched myself at almost no risk (especially if I use VC money for the initial outlay).
 
Unfortunately we're 7 pages in and nobody has identified an ACTUAL PROBLEM in search of a solution.

It's only not a problem because it doesn't affect you...

Should the monopolistic VC-funded buy-em-all company ever happen, you may sing a different tune.
 
7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution. Outlawing this guy would not make your preferred n number available to you. It would make it available to EVERYBODY who wanted it, and you'd still have to compete with them.

Actually, several solutions have been proposed.
 
As noted, there aren't millions and millions of available N-numbers.


Not currently. But add one letter, which the FAA can do at anytime, and the number skyrockets to almost 35M. NOW do the same analysis. Just for fun I would reserve 432FKU.
:D
 
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Not currently. But add one letter, which the FAA can do at anytime, and the number skyrockets to almost 35M. NOW do the same analysis.
;)

24 times the number...so I get a bigger loan from the VCs, and buy all *those*, and then charge tens of thousands of dollars to transfer any N-number.

It's not the numbers (pun intended) that's the problem...
 
24 times the number...so I get a bigger loan from the VCs, and buy all *those*, and then charge tens of thousands of dollars to transfer any N-number.

It's not the numbers (pun intended) that's the problem...
Actually 34 times the number. 24 letters and 10 numbers if correctly written. Charging tens of thousands per registration is mathematecally possible but a practical impossibility. :cool:
 
Since N-numbers come up for renewal every 3 years

Reserved numbers expire every year and must be renewed for $10. So you have to spend the $6M every year. Only active registrations last 3 years.

You're going to spend $6M+ per year running this buisness. There are 2,000 new planes a year, minus the ones that get de-registered (which are your competition). So if you're lucky you can sell 1,500 a year.

$6M / 1,500 = $4,000 break even cost. Sounds like a somewhat risky play, given the government can squash you anytime, so your money partner is going to want a pretty high rate of return, say 25%. So you're at $5K per registration just to break even. The higher that number gets, the more likely you are to get the government to fix the problem (change the rules, make registrations 6 characters...).

The more likely way to play this is to totally block aviation completely, and then assume you can squeeze $500K to $1M out of the airlines for each new plane, and just hope for 10-20 registrations a year. Again, the problem is that it's now cheaper for an airline that wants 10 new planes to spend $5M on lawyers and lobbyists than it is to pay you, so you're funding your own demise.
 
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Reserved numbers expire every year and must be renewed for $10. So you have to spend the $6M every year. Only active registrations last 3 years.

You're going to spend $6M+ per year running this buisness. There are 2,000 new planes a year, minus the ones that get de-registered (which are your competition). So if you're lucky you can sell 1,500 a year.

Aw, right...I forgot that. Still...it only changes the computations, not the theory.

$6M / 1,500 = $4,000 break even cost. Sounds like a somewhat risky play, given the government can squash you anytime, so your money partner is going to want a pretty high rate of return, say 25%. So you're at $5K per registration just to break even. The higher that number gets, the more likely you are to get the government to fix the problem (change the rules, make registrations 6 characters...).

Perhaps not with the current "free market" administration and Congress, eh? After all...fewer government regulations and all that. :)

But yes, that'd be a risk that the backers would have to accept. Or perhaps they could offset it by charging considerably more at first, before the government has time to react by instituting new rules (NPRMs take time...).

The more likely way to play this is to totally block aviation completely, and then assume you can squeeze $500K to $1M out of the airlines for each new plane, and just hope for 10-20 registrations a year. Again, the problem is that it's now cheaper for an airline that wants 10 new planes to spend $5M on lawyers and lobbyists than it is to pay you, so you're funding your own demise.
 
.....
7 pages in and nobody has yet offered a solution. Outlawing this guy would not make your preferred n number available to you. It would make it available to EVERYBODY who wanted it, and you'd still have to compete with them.

The old system that was around in the late 70's and 80's would provide a solution.

A custom number was only assigned to a specific aircraft, even if it was still under construction.

You needed a make/model/serial number to get the special number.
 
Or perhaps they could offset it by charging considerably more at first, before the government has time to react by instituting new rules (NPRMs take time...).

While the FARs lay out the existence of reserved N numbers, and the fees associated, I find nowhere that requires the FAA to allow you to transfer a reservation from one party to another. So the FAA could internally just decide to stop accepting transfers and to require people to reserve numbers directly from the pool.

This would cause other side effects I'm sure, but it would be an effective way to crush N-number speculation without changing the FAR (which needs an NPRM).
 
Value judgements and elaborate VC-based business models aside....

Just build a bot that plays the same game. DR could prob do it as a value-add and sidestep the ethics. Keep it simple:

Build a little web UI to take requests from subscribers. Charge $30 flat fee per number to try via paypal. Only allow one request per number to prevent conflicts of interest. When the expiry comes up, fire the request that very second. Use a business credit card to pay. Request in the name of the subscriber.

One of two things happen: either the subscriber gets the # and for a modest $30. Or they lose the lottery and can request the FAA refund the $10 via mail. So they're out $20.

This keeps the conflicts of interest down, gives a little pocket money for whoever sets this up [trivial for a www developer], and levels the field. And no ownership change paperwork / etc. Very, very streamlined.

UNTIL...

The FAA gets with the '90's and uses some kind of Captcha authentication so registration can't be scripted. So if the scalper(s) want to play they get to do this manually like everybody else. It doesn't take an act of congress to do that. Basic web programming..
 
The FAA gets with the '90's and uses some kind of Captcha authentication so registration can't be scripted. So if the scalper(s) want to play they get to do this manually like everybody else. It doesn't take an act of congress to do that. Basic web programming..
Actually a very good 1st step. :cool:
 
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The old system that was around in the late 70's and 80's would provide a solution.

A custom number was only assigned to a specific aircraft, even if it was still under construction.

You needed a make/model/serial number to get the special number.

That doesn't solve the problem of more than 1 person wanting the same number, which is still a situation that would occur, and is at it's essence, the root of the issue here. As long as they are transferrable, some people will buy and sell their tail #'s.

I'd be willing to bet you'd sell your tail # for the right price, and I'm also willing to bet that most people who wanted your number would be willing to pay more than $10 for it, so we can't really be opposed to the idea of buying and selling them, we are just annoyed at the cost. I'm annoyed at how much avgas costs, too, but you know how that goes.

We can end the practice by either making them non-transferrable, which sure would be a shame, or by assigning one random number to each aircraft, no changes allowed. Would that make people happy?

The idea of VAF running a similar system is great, but it doesn't answer the real question: what if I happen to win a number that somebody else wants as well? If he offers me enough $ to make me happy, can I not sell it?

Nobody has yet answered that question: What if 2 people want the same number? How do you decide who gets it, and are they not allowed to negotiate themselves?

Chris
 
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That doesn't solve the problem of more than 1 person wanting the same number, which is still a situation that would occur, and is at it's essence, the root of the issue here. As long as they are transferrable, some people will buy and sell their tail #'s.

I'd be willing to bet you'd sell your tail # for the right price, and I'm also willing to bet that most people who wanted your number would be willing to pay more than $10 for it, so we can't really be opposed to the idea of buying and selling them.

We can end the practice by either making them non-transferrable, which sure would be a shame, or by assigning one random number to each aircraft, no changes allowed. Would that make people happy?

The idea of VAF running a similar system is great, but it doesn't answer the real question: what if I happen to win a number that somebody else wants as well? If he offers me enough $ to make me happy, can I not sell it?

Nobody has yet answered that question: What if 2 people want the same number? How do you decide who gets it, and are they not allowed to negotiate themselves?

Chris

No, I think the essence of the problem is more like numbers being "hogged" for future profit by non-aircraft owners, rather than two folks wanting the same number.

If you needed an actual plane to get the number and put a time limit on a future transfer, say 1 or 2 years, a lot of the profiteering would go away.

Multiple simultaneous requests by real owners could then be handled with a lottery, and the winner would be "stuck" with the number for 1 to 2 years. :)


As an aside, I believe the UK does not allow re-assignment of registrations. Do you think their would be a good market for this registration that belongs to a modified, and no longer airworthy, Grumman? :)

420833.jpg
 
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Scared me

All this talked scared me. So i went ahead and reserved my prefered N number. There was several versions available last month but now only one of those were left.

My opinon is it should be a crime to resell. No one should be allowed to resell N number; if you dont use it then one needs to turn it in so it goes back in pool. No more transferring unless it is attached to actual property.
 
The old system that was around in the late 70's and 80's would provide a solution.

A custom number was only assigned to a specific aircraft, even if it was still under construction.

You needed a make/model/serial number to get the special number.
Nope because then I just claim I am building PRFLY, Model 1, SN's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,... etc.

There is always a way around rules.
:cool:
 
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Okay.. okay.. okay...

Now that I understand the desperate situation that nobody is in, trying to tackle this problem that does not exist, I can provide a PERFECT solution:

Anyone who can afford to BUILD an aircraft and cannot afford to REGISTER it must receive a taxpayer subsidy to buy one of these fleeting registration numbers.

An alternative solution is that if you actually think this is a problem you should be subjected to a HIMS evaluation.... because you're mental.

Normally I don't get all argumentative here on VAF and I spew it out on Pilots of America, but this topic is so dumb at it's core that I broke my own rule.

I've also reported my own post!
 
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Nope because then I just claim I am building PRFLY, Model 1, SN's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,... etc.

There is always a way around rules.
:cool:

Yes, but you are stuck with it for 1 - 2 years.

Just wait until your state tax collector knows you have 11 registered planes...:D
 
Okay.. okay.. okay...

Now that I understand the desperate situation that nobody is in, trying to tackle this problem that does not exist, I can provide a PERFECT solution:

Anyone who can afford to BUILD an aircraft and cannot afford to REGISTER it must receive a taxpayer subsidy to buy one of these fleeting registration numbers.

An alternative solution is that if you actually think this is a problem you should be subjected to a HIMS evaluation.... because you're mental.

Normally I don't get all argumentative here on VAF and I spew it out on Pilots of America, but this topic is so dumb at it's core that I broke my own rule.

You miss the point Rob. It is an outrage whenever someone does **** like this. Getting money for nothing even if it's perfectly legal. It SUCKS. A lot of people scrimp and save most of their adult lives and budget carefully to build their dream and I didn't budget for an A hole to soak me for something I should be getting from the FAA. So maybe I don't NEED one of Sean's scalped numbers, but I know I put a lot of thought into the few numbers I requested. So take your rant and...
 
You miss the point Rob. It is an outrage whenever someone does **** like this. .... So take your rant and...

Perhaps a gofundme campaign can solve your nonexistent problem.

I'd donate, except that a donation to VAF is a substantially better investment.

Does anybody ever finish Phase I testing and lament that everything was perfect except they hate their tail number?

It's an easy point to miss, since it is POINTLESS.
 
You miss the point Rob. It is an outrage whenever someone does **** like this. Getting money for nothing even if it's perfectly legal. It SUCKS. A lot of people scrimp and save most of their adult lives and budget carefully to build their dream and I didn't budget for an A hole to soak me for something I should be getting from the FAA. So maybe I don't NEED one of Sean's scalped numbers, but I know I put a lot of thought into the few numbers I requested. So take your rant and...

I really hate to say this but this sounds very much like someone whining because their little brother drank all the chocolate milk when there is 2% milk in the fridge and nesquick in the cupboard.
This guy is not stopping you....at all....from registering your plane, you just won't get the number you want. I still have yet to see how what he's doing is a scam, or even how it light be shady. On the contrary it lookalike what he's doing is perfectly legal and is actually providing a service to those willing to pay to get one of his tail numbers, it's just your a little hurt that his prices are not what you'd consider fair. Would you still complain if he charged you 500? 100? 50? Probably not.
 
All this talked scared me. So i went ahead and reserved my prefered N number. There was several versions available last month but now only one of those were left.

My opinon is it should be a crime to resell. No one should be allowed to resell N number; if you dont use it then one needs to turn it in so it goes back in pool. No more transferring unless it is attached to actual property.

This is exactly what I did last night. Took me an hour searching through a bunch of numbers I would maybe like. Finally found one and reserved it. One of the numbers I tried was actually reserved for a drone. I don't really know anything about all this, but if they are using these numbers for drones then good numbers are going to be hard to get.
 
When I haven't been saying there is nothing wrong the practice, I've been looking for the current registrant of the tail number I'd like for my second plane.

I've got a tail number with one numeric character and two alpha characters. I think it would be cool to get the numeric character PLUS one and the same two alphas. (Note: didn't mention them so I can potentially avoid poachers)

The second plane will most likely be a Lance, but I think having them be tail twins would be cool.

And, lest you think I'm disingenuous, I would certainly pay the asking price and/or repainting for someone to get the number I want.
 
(Note: didn't mention them so I can potentially avoid poachers)

You mean an opportunistic poacher like this short-number character? That'd sure be a shame if he poached the number you're thinking of and then charged you out the wazoo since you're quite okay with it...

Since everyone has pro/con (mostly con) opinions on this, here's mine; it's a sleazy, slimy way of doing "business".
 
I really hate to say this but this sounds very much like someone whining because their little brother drank all the chocolate milk when there is 2% milk in the fridge and nesquick in the cupboard.
This guy is not stopping you....at all....from registering your plane, you just won't get the number you want. I still have yet to see how what he's doing is a scam, or even how it light be shady. On the contrary it lookalike what he's doing is perfectly legal and is actually providing a service to those willing to pay to get one of his tail numbers, it's just your a little hurt that his prices are not what you'd consider fair. Would you still complain if he charged you 500? 100? 50? Probably not.

What "service" is he providing? He's reserving government-issued registrations, with no intention whatsoever of using them himself, then charging inflated prices on a product he had no hand in creating to taxpayers who want to register their property per the law.

It's analagous to patent trolling, and it's every bit as sleazy.
 
I really hate to say this but this sounds very much like someone whining because their little brother drank all the chocolate milk when there is 2% milk in the fridge and nesquick in the cupboard.
This guy is not stopping you....at all....from registering your plane, you just won't get the number you want. I still have yet to see how what he's doing is a scam, or even how it light be shady. On the contrary it lookalike what he's doing is perfectly legal and is actually providing a service to those willing to pay to get one of his tail numbers, it's just your a little hurt that his prices are not what you'd consider fair. Would you still complain if he charged you 500? 100? 50? Probably not.


First of all, let me apologize for my harsh tone in response to Rob's insulting post. This is the first time I've seen derogatory and argumentative posts on this great site. I'd prefer to continue helping other builders and being helped.

No, I would not pay a scalper a dime for his "efforts". That's one of the great things about this hobby - I can choose to economize where it is safe to do so, or I can spend more where I wish. I appreciate value where it is created. A lot of builders have invented and designed some really great enhancements that are well worth what they choose to charge. Sitting on people's initials and charging the price of a good com radio for them is just ridiculous. Not whining - just calling it as I see it.
 
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