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Garmin Avionics Thoughts

JDA_BTR

Well Known Member
Any thoughts on better ergonomics for a Garmin system:

1. 10" G3X Touch centered on Pilot with a GTN750 to right

2. 10" G3X Touch on pilot with a GTN650/7" G3X stack

3. Two 7" G3X side by side with a GTN650 to right

4. Two 7" G3X Touch over/under with GTN650/750 to right


I'm liking the idea of actually using the GTN750 big display for more then what can be done on a 650. But without any flying experience on these systems (my current training is 6-pack all the way). All options above would be with a GRT Mini or something like it as a separate all-is-lost backup. It looks from the drawings that one 10" G3X touch has about the same display area as two 7" systems? And the budget would allow one 10"/750 but not two 10"/750.

Seems like with the 10/750 combo you can split the screen for engine monitoring, EFIS, chart on the 10" and then have the 750 for garmin map/gps/plates.
 
Simply my opinion, but you asked:D.

I fly behind a Skyview, but far as IFR navigators, with some of Dynon's recent upgrades adding to GNS/GTN integration (integration that the G3X has always had), I use my 430 VERY little during flight - initially loading a flight plan and loading an approach is about it - and that would be even less with Garmin's wifi connection to its iPad app. For me, the 750 doesn't get enough for the increased cost. That said - and it has been a while since I looked - I believe both can support remote comm 2, but only 750 supports remote comm panel..? Not sure what else the 750 gets you..? Also been a while since I've checked $$, but I have to believe foregoing the 750 for 650 would net you the difference for a second 10". Is the 750 giving you something a G3X screen cannot?

2x10" with 650 in a traditional stack next to the 2 screens would be my choice.
 
As a general rule these days, you'll always get more features (and functions) per dollar in the experimental world than in the certified world - and those features can be upgraded easily (and usually for free) in the experimental products, whereas usually not at all (or at a cost) in the certified stuff.

So unless you just got a smoking deal on a 750, you'll get more bang for your buck going with experimental hardware and a smaller navigator. I also find that with eh G3X or the Touch (or the Dyon, or the AFS, or the GRT....) that I rarely use the nav functions on the IFR Navigators in our planes - mostly, they are expensive Comm radios that I carry so that I have the IFR capability when I need it. BUt that's partially because where I live now, we almost never need to fly IFR.

I having been flying with the new Avidyne 440 now for a few weeks - its got some nifty features as an FMS that have me touching that box more often than with the 430W's....we'll see if that trend continues. But still I'd maximize my panel real estate usage of experimental hardware if I want to get the most for my dollar.
 
I agree with Paul. Invest in the experimental stuff!

I went back and forth on a 650 vs a 750 to compliment my G3X Touch system (although I have a bit more screen real estate)

In the end, the biggest reason that I wanted the 750 was for the full keyboard, ease of data entry, and a little better view of the information. Those (IMHO small) improvements are going to cost you about $5000 over the 650. You can also run a remote audio panel, but then you need a CERTIFIED audio panel, which adds even more to this setup.

Then Garmin announced that they were going to enable remote tuning of the GTN radios thru the G3X. For me, that took away a big portion of the hold up I had with the 650. Then they also announced that you can build a flight plan on the G3X (or iPad) and push it to the 650, and all you need to do is hit "accept" on the 650.

In the end, my decision was to really use the features of the G3X touch, and have the 650 in the panel for a certified position source... and that's about it. It feeds ADSB, has my instrument procedures, and serves as a certified GPS for IFR flying, but I don't end up interacting with it all that much.
 
Then Garmin announced that they were going to enable remote tuning of the GTN radios thru the G3X. For me, that took away a big portion of the hold up I had with the 650. Then they also announced that you can build a flight plan on the G3X (or iPad) and push it to the 650, and all you need to do is hit "accept" on the 650.

I missed this, that would be great news. Can you provide any specifics on when/how this is going to be implemented?

Thanks,

-Dan
 
I have just over 200 hours on my RV-9A with a single 10" G3X Touch screen, a Garmin GPS400W (think 430W without Nav/Com), GTR-20 remote Comm, and a GTN225 Nav/Com. I also have a GRT MiniX as a backup instrument. I have done a lot of IFR flight with this airplane as I train for my certification and I can tell you that I rarely look at the GPS400. The G3X screen does such a good job of displaying my flight plan and almost everything else I need that I just don't have a need to look at the GPS except to verify approach modes and such. I say almost everything because there is one thing I would change if I could do it all again. I would add a second G3X screen to move my comm and transponder information to. As it stands the Comm frequencies and the transponder interface are on the top data bar of my single display and that limits the number of data fields I can display. The end result is that I have most of the primary data fields (ground track, desired ground track, Next Waypoint, course) on the G3X and still have to look at the GPS400 for the remaining needed data fields (ETA Next, etc).

Long story short, I would select option #2 from your list if I couldn't have two 10" screens.
 
I agree with everyone else.
I have a 3 screen 7"G3X (non-touch). and a 650.
Other than the radio, or setting up an IFR approch, I never look or touch it again in flight.

If I had the touch ability to send the from ipad I would probably never touch or look at the 650 other than to change the radio.
Go with more screens and 650 over less screens and 750
 
Garmin 625

When I configured my panel, I bought the 625, which doesn't include Nav or Coms. I put two remote coms in and saved myself about $4,000 because I don't feel I need a Nav. You can get the 625 for a little over $5K when you buy the G3X. Just a thought.
 
When I configured my panel, I bought the 625, which doesn't include Nav or Coms. I put two remote coms in and saved myself about $4,000 because I don't feel I need a Nav. You can get the 625 for a little over $5K when you buy the G3X. Just a thought.

I agree with the above post and this is similar to what I'm currently planning. Unless you Need Nav, you will save a lot and still have all the capabilities.

Rock
 
Seems like sacrilege to not have a NAV function. But it's true, ILS is less and less useful when the GPS is working; and if the GTN650 dies so does the Nav....
 
G3x

I am considering all of the same things for my 14 build. Are you aware that you can use the GRT mini to display all engine monitoring info as well as that "all is lost" backup. It seems that this mitigates the need for the second G3x touch.
 
GTN 635

Saving money with a GTN 625 is an interesting idea, and if you want a comm., you can get the GTN 635 for only a few hundred $ more.
 
I'm kind of coming around to having the 10" G3X touch in front of me (EFIS, Map), a 7" G3X to the right top (charts, engine, backup), 635 right middle (com, gps), audio panel/autopilot right bottom.....

Need to make sure if the 635 dies another radio will work - hence the audio panel. Want to have autopilot via either the G3X or the Mini - autopilot panel.

Looking at radios there isn't a cheaper one than what is built into the 635/650. The redundant radio probably ought to have a panel display because if it is remoted then without a G3X it can't be freq selected. So the stack to the right could have 7" touch, GTN 635/650, COM2, audio panel, autopilot.

So long as power is available, if any one thing fails there is still a radio and still an EFIS?
 
Okay so lets think about GTN/Radios

I'm thinking I want a NAV radio so as to not give up entirely on ILS/GS approaches; but if the GTN650 fails I lose GPS/NAV/Com1; seems like too much. After much thought the marker function is something I'm not going to worry about.

Another alternative is to have
GTN625 (WAAS GPS)
GNS255A (COM/NAV with panel display)
GTR20 (Remote COM2)
Audio panel like GMA240

Will take up a little more real estate but less lost on a single point failure? Cost of the two options is within a few hundred dollars but that gets eaten up with cabling so lets say the two options cost the same.

Any ideas on the audio panel? Is there something clearly better than the GMA240 in the $1K range? Anything with bluetooth?
 
Your Comm/Nav thoughts are pretty much exactly as I have mine now (as I mentioned before) with the exception being I have the GPS-400W instead of the GTN-625. All in all I love my setup with one exception that may or may not apply to the GTN-625. When I am doing a Nav type approach (VOR/ILS) I use the GPS until turning final at which time I manually switch the G3X HSI input source from GPS to Nav (a couple of taps). I understand that the GNS-430 will do this automatically which would be one less thing for me to think about at this critical period of flight.

As far as audio panels I love my GMA-240. No need for marker beacons any longer and for bluetooth I use the bluetooth built into my headset (Bose A20). I lack for nothing that I am aware of. That said I have never flown behind any other modern audio panel.

Oh, and good call on keeping a Nav radio IMO. You never know when GPS will be unavailable. Just read the NOTAM's about "limited" GPS outages due to "testing" and such. It happens and it happens far too often for my comfort in using GPS alone. I also happen to carry my iPad and iPhone with me when I fly because they use both the US GPS system and the GLONASS GPS system. :)
 
Saving money with a GTN 625 is an interesting idea, and if you want a comm., you can get the GTN 635 for only a few hundred $ more.

Garmin had a deal on the 625, might still be on. it wasn't hundreds, it was several thousand. That's why I bought the 625, then added the coms. Saved about $4K.
 
Any ideas on the audio panel? Is there something clearly better than the GMA240 in the $1K range? Anything with bluetooth?

I'd say almost anything is better, unless you like paying $200 to replace an internal fuse. [ fuse? Who uses them anymore?]. Take a look at PS Engineering. A few dollars more, but no comparison inside the boxes.
 
GTN 625 vs GTN 635

I meant the difference in cost between the 625 and the 635 was only a few hundred dollars. They, of course, list for thousands each.
 
I have the GTN625 coupled to a single G3X Touch. Here are a few notes from my own flights.

  • you can do all of your flight planning on the G3X Touch or even with the Garmin Pilot App. I do the latter. You can "send" the FP from the App to the G3X and or to the GTN. You can also "send" a FP from the G3X to the GTN. I have never entered a FP on the GTN.
  • you can append an approach to the FP on the GTN easily, even if the FP originated from the G3X or App
  • Garmin had a G3X webinar this past week and said the deal on the GTN625 is still available for new G3X Touch purchasers. This makes the GTN625 several thousand less that the GTN635. A GTN625+GTR20 remote COMM is still much less than a GTN635. What you lose is dedicated knobs for radio tuning. A discounted GTN625+GTR200 is still a considerable savings if you have the panel space.
  • a single 10" G3X Touch is very capable. However, for IFR I still want a dedicated approach plate somewhere. I "get by" with the split screen of the 10" G3X Touch but am trying out options for also have the ability to see my Nexus 7 just for the approach plate. YMMV.
 
Yes the cost equivalence of a GTN650 and the combo GTN625/GMC255/GTR20 is due to the discount of the GTN625 when you buy the G3X touch. In order to have a NAV function you end up at the same place. If no NAV you can come in 3K less with the 625/GTR200/GTR20 combo. If you don't want any panel radio at all then the 625/20/20 combo will do that; but I'm wanting at least one panel radio....

I'm looking at other NAV/COM radios and there aren't any inexpensive options I can find. Would be nice to find a remoted NAV/COM that integrated at a good price point.

Also I'm probably a year+ from buying my avionics; the fuselage kit isn't ordered yet. So I have no idea if the 625 deal will last.
 
I have the GTN625 coupled to a single G3X Touch. Here are a few notes from my own flights.

  • you can do all of your flight planning on the G3X Touch or even with the Garmin Pilot App. I do the latter. You can "send" the FP from the App to the G3X and or to the GTN. You can also "send" a FP from the G3X to the GTN. I have never entered a FP on the GTN.
  • you can append an approach to the FP on the GTN easily, even if the FP originated from the G3X or App
  • Garmin had a G3X webinar this past week and said the deal on the GTN625 is still available for new G3X Touch purchasers. This makes the GTN625 several thousand less that the GTN635. A GTN625+GTR20 remote COMM is still much less than a GTN635. What you lose is dedicated knobs for radio tuning. A discounted GTN625+GTR200 is still a considerable savings if you have the panel space.
  • a single 10" G3X Touch is very capable. However, for IFR I still want a dedicated approach plate somewhere. I "get by" with the split screen of the 10" G3X Touch but am trying out options for also have the ability to see my Nexus 7 just for the approach plate. YMMV.

Glen,

Dumb question... How do you do a flight plan on the G3X touch and then transfer it to the 650?

-Dan
 
635 vs 625

I meant the difference in cost between the 625 and the 635 was only a few hundred dollars. They, of course, list for thousands each.

If they were only a few hundred dollars difference, of course I would have purchased the 635 with the comm radio. However, the GTN 650 is $11,400, the GTN 635 is $10,400 and the GTN 625 is $9,500. Those are of course list prices. However, since I was buying the G3X, Garmin had a special on the 625 and I paid $5303. I tried to get them to give some sort of a deal on the 635, but they were only offering the 625 at a discount. So, I purchased the 625 for $5,300 and a comm for $930, so total of $6,230. By doing so, I have the same functionality as purchasing the 635, but roughly $3,000 less. The comm is mounted on a tray beneath the G3X so it was no big deal. I have a second comm on the other side. That was the point I was trying to make about the cost, sorry for the long explanation.
 
Sorry, I was going with Internet prices and didn't know about the super discount deal on the 625. Just starting on the tail kit, so I'm a long way from buying avionics, but I am learning a lot from the forum conversations.
 
GMA 240 Audio Panel Features

Any ideas on the audio panel? Is there something clearly better than the GMA240 in the $1K range? Anything with bluetooth?

Hello Dudley,

Good question. You simply cannot find a better audio panel in this price range than the GMA 240. All the great dedicated controls and annunciators and full stereo support for intercom and music make the GMA 240 a pleasure to use, and at a minimum advertised price of $845, it is also the price value leader.

When customers are comparing audio panels, we always ask them to consider the human factors of the various controls. Most of us have been intimidated or confused by audio panels in the past, and we wanted the GMA 240 to be the most intuitive, easy to use audio panel on the market.

Here is just a brief summary of some of the user interface aspects of the GMA 240 that make it so popular in homebuilts.

Music Volume Control
Some audio panels don't have music volume control at all or use buttons for volume control and only control the volume for one of the two music sources. The GMA 240 has a music volume knob (just like the radio in your car) that can be conveniently used to control the volume of the music you are listening to whether you are listening to Music 1 or Music 2.​

Music 1-2 Selection
Some audio panels don't have any front panel controls to select between multiple music sources or have a music source input that can only be heard by the passengers. The GMA 240 has a dedicated Music 1-2 button and lights. Either music source can be heard by both crew and passengers. This is a particularly important feature if you have SXM music from the G3X Touch display wired into Music 2 and want to use Music 1 (front panel or rear jack) for a portable music player.​
MUSIC1_2.png


Rapid Music On/Off

Some audio panels have no provision to rapidly turn the selected music source on/off leaving you to have to fumble with the controls on the music source each time you want to perform this function. The GMA 240 has a dedicated Music On/Off button with annunciator to efficiently perform this function multiple times throughout a typical flight.
MUSICONOFF.png


Intercom Volume Knobs

Some audio panels have a dual knob intercom (ICS) volume control. The inner knob serves both pilot and copilot and the outer knob serves the passengers. The GMA240 has separate ICS volume controls for pilot and copilot on separate sides of the audio panel and the copilot volume knob also serves the passengers. Since the most common occupancy of an experimental aircraft when more than just the pilot is onboard is 2, giving the copilot his/her own volume knob on the right side and sharing that with passengers like the GMA 240 does is very desirable.

Music Muting

Some audio panels use a single button control that forces you to rotate through three choices for music muting (ICS/RADIO/ON). ?ON? means both which might be confusing. The GMA 240 has separate buttons and annunciators to control whether the intercom and/or radio causes the music to be muted. Nothing could be simpler, and you have immediate access to turn either muting selection on/off without having to rotate through several choices.
MUTEMUSIC.png


Rapid Pilot Isolate
Some audio panels use a control that forces you to rotate through multiple choices to go into pilot isolation. The GMA 240 has a dedicated single button with annunciator for clear, rapid access to this important feature.​
PILOTISOLATE.png


FrontPanel.jpg


One of the earlier posters in this thread who commented on the GMA 240 is sharing out of date information. While it is true that early models of the GMA 240 would, in very rare cases, blow an internal fuse, this circuit protection was revised in early 2013 and there have been NO reports of issues since then. In the unlikely event that anyone with any GMA 240 has any issues with this circuit protection, please contact us and we will take care of the repair.

With regard to Bluetooth, we have heard of customers installing one of the readily available small A2DP Bluetooth receivers and wiring it to one of the two music inputs on the P2402 rear connector, but haven't had any feedback on how well this works.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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I have PSE Engineering PAR100 in my panel beneath the GTN650. Comparing the two pieces of equipment is like comparing apples to clecos. They aren't even in the same league. Twist an outer knob on the PS Engineering and the inner rotates as well. Same thing rotating the inner. Gets real irritating in bumps. I often find myself avoiding the PSE box altogether. Buttonology (is that a word?) is far better on the Garmin. Sure wish the GMA 240 was out when I built my panel. I would rather be single radio with all Garmin. I am not a fan of the PAR100 and that 240 looks far more intuitive.

Your mileage may vary. Only my opinion after several hundred hours zigzagging across the country.
 
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