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Old 11-19-2018, 10:54 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,101
Default What can I do to make the Airventure arrival better?

OK, there is another epic thread running about the proposed improvements to the Airventure arrival after last year’s massive debacle on the opening weekend. A lot of time and effort is being put in by a lot of people to revise the procedures that have been used for the past twenty or thirty years, and which revealed their lack of margin for when things go wrong. Folks can debate the reasons things went sideways, they can debate the improvements to the procedures, they can debate if they are ever going to fly in to the show again. But you know what? You probably aren’t going to have much of an affect on those new procedures. Complain, shout and scream all you want on the internet…others are making those changes.

But you know what you CAN do? The same thing that I (me, personally) can do – I can list the things that I (me, personally) will do to make my arrival safer for everyone – including myself. That is what this thread is about. Taking personal responsibility for myself and others out there in the wild blue Wisconsin sky. Many of the problems last year were created by pilots who simply ignored the rules and held themselves first and foremost – they cared not for what they were doing to anyone else. And that, my friends, is a way to make the skies very ugly indeed.

So here is the start of my list.

1) I will ALWAYS follow the NOTAM – or I won’t go to Oshkosh during the show. I won’t rationalize why I fudge here and there. I won’t fly a little faster, or a little higher than the NOTAM says. I will be exactly where it says to be.
2) I will listen a long ways out so that I know if the arrival is going well, or if a furball is going on.
3) I will NEVER hold in the air – I will find a great spot on the ground to go and sit, probably where an EAA chapter is holding a pancake breakfast, and I can visit with other pilots who are waiting as well.
4) I will time my arrival to be at an off-peak period. First thing in the morning has always been good – and I mean right as things open up. Practice those “time on target” skills. (Full disclosure – my current job generally has me arriving on Thursday – easy-peasy.)
5) I will give way to others – there are lots of places I can go and land.
6) I will always remember that the world will not end if I don’t make it in to Airventure with my plane(s).

That’s a start – I have others, but I will let others add their own. Remember - this is about personal responsibility – you can’t control what others do, only what you do yourself.
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)

Last edited by Ironflight : 11-19-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 11-19-2018, 11:43 AM
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Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,215

I wrote an article for Kitplanes some years back on making sure that your flying skills are completely up to snuff, and the last time I flew into AirVenture, I got to use lots of those skills. So point #1 is to make sure your skills are up to the task.

Point #2 is to know when to call off flying to Oshkosh. At my age, I'm just not willing to put up with confusion and hassles. Since I have to rent a car anyway, it's just as easy to rent a car at an airport a few hours drive away at cheaper rates.

Point #3 is to know when to take the airlines, as you've written about, Paul. Last year, I had a three day window to make the trip before I had to be there. On day three, I burned airline miles and flew in to Chicago. The airline made a huge detour around weather. I could have flown half way and then sat on the ground for several days, instrument rated or not...

PS. Not at all in line with your topic, but wouldn't it be interesting if there was a $250 landing fee at Oshkosh, but no charge if you had a copy of the current NOTAM on board, either paper or electronic.
RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
2020 dues slightly overpaid
Retired - "They used to pay me to be good, now I'm good for nothing."
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Old 11-19-2018, 12:48 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,567

Paul, thanks for getting this started.

Some other thoughts:

As a member of the pilot community I will help to get the word out that there are new procedures coming. I will attend Chapter meetings where possible and talk about the new procedures.

If/when things go wrong this coming year, I will NOT key my mic and say accusatory things

I will adopt a safety first attitude and not a me-first attitude

I will leave for OSH knowing that there could be delays and I will plan accordingly

I will trust that others are trying to do their job right, and remember that if someone isn't quite doing it the way I would like it done, I will remember that I was once a newbie to and I had to learn to, and that I probably made some mistakes along the way.

I will remember that we are doing this FOR FUN.

Vic Syracuse

Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
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Old 11-19-2018, 01:17 PM
moosepileit moosepileit is offline
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Floyds Knobs, IN
Posts: 596

The referenced thread is not, "epic".

What IS epic is it takes a no-kidding NASA Astronaut (eta, and "Kitplanes" writers) to start a thread posting what should be already ingrained baseline pilot.

What would George Carlin say?

The Pareto 80/20 & 5% rules apply and must be factored in right alongside all the great work helping keep lots of folks flying in safely and efficiently.

Me, well, I will continue accurately flying 90 and 1/2 mile spacing. Only 1 of those 2 can commonly be practiced and both are rarer displays. I have not and will never say, "90" nor "1/2 mile" on the arrival freqs.
RV-6, bought from builder.
O-320, slider, carb, mags, FP

Last edited by moosepileit : 11-19-2018 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Kudos to Kitplanes
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Old 11-19-2018, 06:11 PM
Smilin' Jack Smilin' Jack is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cumming, Georgia
Posts: 872
Default Oshkosh Arrival,

I do disagree a bit with some of the attitude of not utilizing the higher arrival if your capable of doing the 135 kts. The last two years I utilized the higher altitude and only had a joyful experience arriving and landing on 27.

It frees up the lower altitude where over several years I have been cut in, out, and around by other planes. Like instrument RNAV approaches if you can fly the procedure then fly it, if not then use another method suitable for your aircraft and experience level. Or land early and take a BUS.

I would encourage folks to make sure they are not talking on the ATIS frequency.

I would encourage folks to find that aircraft ahead of them on the appropriate route (railroad track) and stay in trail of that aircraft.

Like you plan your arrival at a non peak time.

If your VFR do not be flying in and out of the clouds trying to get to Ripon or Frisk intersection don't make a situation more hazardous.

Stay off the radio except in an emergency. The arrival to Oshkosh does not constitute an emergency.

Be seen,, turn on your lights all of them...

Just my thoughts...

Smilin' Jack
Smilin' Jack & Anita Hunt
N507H RV7, KJZP Jasper, GA
Retired Corporate Pilot CFI-AI, MEL
CE500, LRJT, HS25, C650, SBJT, CL60
Hunt Aviation, LLC.
Pilot Service, IPC's Biennials.
Comm Glider
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:22 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,900

One of the things I instituted when President of the Charlotte EAA chapter 309 was to host NOTAM reviews.

We would have people who have flown the into AirVenture or Sun-n-Fun talk through the NOTAM.

Then we would fly it on Google Earth.

After that we would hold a Q&A session so the people who were to fly it the first time could ask questions.

Personally, I would write down all the frequencies and headings on a pad of paper that would be on my kneepad. Not only that, I would preload the frequencies in my radio and make sure my passenger knew how to tune those frequencies into the radio.

Then I would go practice slowflight and make sure I was comfortable flying at just above stall.
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC

Last edited by N941WR : 11-20-2018 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:42 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,095

Choose your own minimums. Don't let others influence you.

If the ceiling is too low for you, don't go.

If you don't like the circling holds, leave and go land or create your own hold 10 miles away.

If your fuel state is questionable, decide early and often to stop.

Establish a minimum in-trail speed. If slower traffic means you can't go that fast or faster on the arrival, bail out.

Use the NOTAM, common sense, and your eyeballs.
Kyle Boatright
Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:57 PM
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Bruce Bruce is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,128

Stop 50-100 miles outside of KOSH.
Take on max fuel load
Unload and reload liquids.
Look at weather.
Listen to KOSH ATIS.
Bookmark pages or pullout NOTAM pages of active runways. (2)
Have freqs and parking signs readily available.

Brief plan A, Expect the unknown

Fly safe, keep your heads outside. Donít be watching the screens.
Bruce (BOOMER) Pauley
Kathy (KAT) Pauley

VAF #582-----------------EAA LIFETIME MEMBER
EX -KC-135A -------------BOOM OPERATOR #3633
VAN'S FLIGHT------------#6930

See you in OSHKOSH

=VAF= 2006-2020 DUES PAID
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Old 11-19-2018, 09:13 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,101

Mostly good comments so far folks - but I would encourage you to use the pronoun “I”...not “you” .....OWN these thoughts. Don’t tell others what THEY should be doing - make a pledge to control what you can control...YOUR actions.

Others may follow your never know....
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
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Old 11-19-2018, 09:57 PM
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Paddy Paddy is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 367
Default The Choir

There's some irony here in that those who are engaged enough to respond to this post are clearly engaged enough to have briefed the NOTAM, given some thought and planning to the whole thing and resolved to be generally prepared.

The problems encountered with the arrival are caused by folks that have done little of the above and in their ignorance and/or arrogance, crashed the party in the full knowledge that there's no enforcement of the rules, regardless of the serious danger they cause.

I've flown in several times, carefully followed the procedure only to be descended upon, overtaken while at the prescribed speed, cut off multiple times, and the perennial favorite - told to break off and rejoin after some dipstick inserts himself into my carefully managed in-trail separation. Us rule followers have all been there...

I live close enough to launch and be there pronto when the ATIS and ATC feed on the inter web indicates it's go time. Not this year though - no way no how was I going to subject myself and my passengers to the fur ball that was unfolding on the radio. I unloaded the plane and drove up, no regrets, except the realization that I'll probably not fly in again unless things change.

So I guess that's it for my introspective, Paul, I just won't do it anymore.
RV-10 N415JS
Slow build kit #40874
Homebuilt Kit Champion Oshkosh 2019
Atlantic crossings: 2
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