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  #11  
Old 04-11-2019, 07:51 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Thanks for replies on subject of CS on RV-12.

I got the idea from hangar neighbor who has Katana experience with 912 and CS. He showed me how easy it would be to convert, engine has pad for regulator and is CS ready except for prop, which has not been ID'ed. I don't know what the Katana is turning.

Just an experimenter thinking, Ive done crazier things than this. Will probably never happen, have a number of hoops to jump through yet for certification.
I will end up owner of this airplane, is done deal.

And am moving it to Minnesota later, have husband-wife ceremony coming up with friend from HS school days from 65 years ago. She's as crazy as am I at this age.
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:29 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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I’ve had the chance to fly quite a few Rotax powered LSA-class airplanes in the past few years, and Vern in the low and slow regime, I prefer a light CS prop over a fixed pitch, if for no other reason than you don’t have to worry about RPM when maneuvering. But that’s trivial compared to the ability to use the full range of the airplane - from climber to speedster.

I can think specifically about the Kitfox’s - flown them both ways, and when someone is handing out keys, I always grab the one with the Airmaster prop.

The caveat here is that I am not paying for them - so yes, cost is a definite consideration the buyer needs to think about. But as a pilot....interesting idea!

As for the ELSA vs. EAB, I think that BasicMed has changed the landscape on that considerably.
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RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
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  #13  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:48 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post

As for the ELSA vs. EAB, I think that BasicMed has changed the landscape on that considerably.
In the context of the RV-12 at least, I don't think it really matters, since a sport pilot can fly an E-AB or E-LSA RV-12, as long as they both meet the performance requirements of light sport. The only real difference between the two (in regards to resale to a second owner at least), is the ability to do the condition inspection. For E-LSA a second owner can take teh course and be able to do it. For E-AB, he will have to get an A&P (or the original builder, if they are willing) to do it.

Basic med has likely pulled some people away from light sport though.
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2019, 02:00 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
In the context of the RV-12 at least, I don't think it really matters, since a sport pilot can fly an E-AB or E-LSA RV-12, as long as they both meet the performance requirements of light sport. The only real difference between the two (in regards to resale to a second owner at least), is the ability to do the condition inspection. For E-LSA a second owner can take teh course and be able to do it. For E-AB, he will have to get an A&P (or the original builder, if they are willing) to do it.

Basic med has likely pulled some people away from light sport though.
You’re right about all that Scott - my intent was to point it that with BasicMed, it doesn’t make any difference if. You keep an airplane within the LSA parameters or not - heck I can fly my jet on BasicMed if I wanted to!

So where it used to be really important to keep an LSA in that category, it doesn’t really matter now, as just about anyone that can fog a mirror can get a BasicMed sign off.
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RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2019, 03:29 PM
NinerBikes NinerBikes is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer View Post
I can attest that you do not need a CS prop to get those numbers. If you use a UL350iS and a WW GA-UL350-2B prop and pitch accordingly, you can be off the ground in 300’, climb between 1200-1700 fpm depending on weight and do 136-138 KTAS in level flight at 7500’ (with wheel pants and gear leg fairings...)

While I like the idea of a CS prop, I agree with Mel that there isn’t much value achieved for the cost.

As for resale, a topic that has been discussed ad-nausea on this forum, I’ve already been offered a very good price for my E-AB RV12 (I passed, as I still need my little bird for right now), but it was definitely contrary to the context that “E-AB is worth less than E-LSA”.
How close is 136 KTAS at 7500' to Vne ???? at or over? Potential for wing flutter? I think most people here know that rongawer's E-AB build is an exceptional high performance RV-12 build with a lot of goodies in it that are quite desireable. Not all E-AB's are built or designed equally. If Ron keeps it as long as needed to build his other RV, while commuting in the RV-12 almost daily, he may have 1000 hrs on the tach meter and frame, when it finally goes up for sale. I've no idea how buyers prorate the price of a plane based on hours on tach and frame, and motor. I'm not familiar with rebuild process or potential of the UL-350IS, or if it's even possible.

The basic Rotax 912 series of motor is a whole different ballgame. It's Jet ski/ Personal Watercraft/ Snowmobile design/ mfg techniques, adapted to an airframe, with a crank that is pressed together inside of the big end of the connecting rods. No idea how you even measure tolerances at 2000 hrs, since you can't get the connecting rods off to insert plastigauge to even get a tolerance or gap reading, unlike conventional connecting rods in the automobile gas and diesel engine industry.

Last edited by NinerBikes : 04-11-2019 at 03:59 PM.
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  #16  
Old 04-11-2019, 03:41 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
You’re right about all that Scott - my intent was to point it that with BasicMed, it doesn’t make any difference if. You keep an airplane within the LSA parameters or not - heck I can fly my jet on BasicMed if I wanted to!

So where it used to be really important to keep an LSA in that category, it doesn’t really matter now, as just about anyone that can fog a mirror can get a BasicMed sign off.
Gotta

I wasn't thinking in that context because the conversation seemed to be related to resale value.
Doing a modification to an S-LSA compliant RV-12 (whether it be E-LSA or E-AB), that made it not comply with LSA requirements could have a negative impact on resale value, because the moment that mod is made, the airplane can never be flown by a Sport Pilot. I.E., it can never go backwards. Even if the mod. was reversed. Whether anyone would know is a whole different discussion........
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  #17  
Old 04-11-2019, 06:34 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
You’re right about all that Scott - my intent was to point it that with BasicMed, it doesn’t make any difference if. You keep an airplane within the LSA parameters or not - heck I can fly my jet on BasicMed if I wanted to!

So where it used to be really important to keep an LSA in that category, it doesn’t really matter now, as just about anyone that can fog a mirror can get a BasicMed sign off.
I just got Basic Med, good for 4 years.

The required on line course is a good exercise too. Did the AOPA version.
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  #18  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:23 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Doing a modification to an S-LSA compliant RV-12 (whether it be E-LSA or E-AB), that made it not comply with LSA requirements could have a negative impact on resale value, because the moment that mod is made, the airplane can never be flown by a Sport Pilot. I.E., it can never go backwards. Even if the mod. was reversed. Whether anyone would know is a whole different discussion........
Keep in mind that a modification on an E-LSA that made it not comply with LSA parameters would not only "could never be flown by a sport pilot", it could never be flown at all by anybody. Once that mod happened, the Airworthiness Certificate would become invalid and there is no path to reinstate it.
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:07 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Keep in mind that a modification on an E-LSA that made it not comply with LSA parameters would not only "could never be flown by a sport pilot", it could never be flown at all by anybody. Once that mod happened, the Airworthiness Certificate would become invalid and there is no path to reinstate it.
Yup
I figured the thread had drifted far enough from the center line as it was so wasn't going to go even farther with the nitty gritty.
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  #20  
Old 04-11-2019, 11:45 PM
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinerBikes View Post
How close is 136 KTAS at 7500' to Vne ???? at or over? Potential for wing flutter? I think most people here know that rongawer's E-AB build is an exceptional high performance RV-12 build with a lot of goodies in it that are quite desireable. Not all E-AB's are built or designed equally. If Ron keeps it as long as needed to build his other RV, while commuting in the RV-12 almost daily, he may have 1000 hrs on the tach meter and frame, when it finally goes up for sale. I've no idea how buyers prorate the price of a plane based on hours on tach and frame, and motor. I'm not familiar with rebuild process or potential of the UL-350IS, or if it's even possible.

The basic Rotax 912 series of motor is a whole different ballgame. It's Jet ski/ Personal Watercraft/ Snowmobile design/ mfg techniques, adapted to an airframe, with a crank that is pressed together inside of the big end of the connecting rods. No idea how you even measure tolerances at 2000 hrs, since you can't get the connecting rods off to insert plastigauge to even get a tolerance or gap reading, unlike conventional connecting rods in the automobile gas and diesel engine industry.
At 7500', Vne is based on KIAS, so the 136KTAS I referred to is below Vne, at around 117KIAS or so. The ride is smooth and stable and no discernible difference in flight characteristics from say, 120 KTAS.

This is off-thread, but since you posed the question...
A UL350iS is a very simple and well designed engine, and therefore an easy overhaul. You can either buy the parts and do it yourself, or have one of the UL shops to do it for you. It can be completely disassembled fairly quickly. In fact, my engine, I purchased used with 19 hours on it, but it had sat for a few years and I was concerned about it's condition internally, so bought a full set of gaskets, seals and crush washers, completely disassembled the engine, inspected (found it to be in new condition) and reassembled it on a Saturday. It's pretty simple with only a few "special" tools needed, which can either be improvised yourself or purchased from Wick's aircraft. (or possibly borrowed).
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