VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 04-01-2019, 12:39 AM
Piper J3's Avatar
Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hinckley, Ohio
Posts: 1,321
Default Some Thoughts on Tires & BrakesÖ

I fly from a private grass strip in northern Ohio. Needless to say, not much flying in the winter months. So, the spring ritual is to look over the machine really good while I wait for the ground to firm up. Even though I'm based on a grass strip, almost all my flying is from hard surface runways.

Brakes are as important as flight controls for airplanes with free-castering nosewheel. Loss of a brake pretty much means deviating from the runway and having a bad day. Original brakes were replaced at 80TT. Now my second set of linings is due for replacement at 415TT. I think the second set of linings lasted longer because the disc was conditioned by the first set of linings, at least thatís my theory. The brakes pulsate and it has bothered me from day one. The discs are soft steel and get scored-up something awful. I have decided to order new Matco discs and will have Master Chrome in Cleveland, OH hard chrome plate them before use. Master Chrome does hard chrome plating for Cleveland Wheel so I should a good result. The hard chrome surface should stay smooth and eliminate pulsation.

The original tires supplied by Vans lasted 200 hours. The outside edges got scalloped and worn to the thread. I installed Desser 500-5 6 PLY RTO Retread, Elite Premium 2 Groove. At 415TT Iím very happy with these tires. The tread shape has substantially more rubber on the outside edges providing excellent wear. Iím going to rotate tires L-R because right side tire is showing slightly more edge wear. My plan is to run the tires until end of flying season and then I will disassemble the wheels and flip the tires so fresh edge is to the outside. It looks like I should be able to get 600 hours on these tires by remounting them on the wheels when the outside edge is sufficiently worn.

__________________
-
Jim Stricker
Hinckley, Ohio (1OA2)
EAA #499867
PPL/ASEL 1970 - Sport Pilot since 2007
80 hrs Flying Aeronca Chief 11AC N86203
1130 hrs Flying 46 Piper J-3 Cub N6841H
RV-12 E-LSA #120058 AWC July 2012 N633CM
RV-12 Bought Flying Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 421

LSRM-A Certificate 2016
Special Thanks... EJ Trucks - Crew Chief A-4 Skyhawks
and MJ Stricker (my flight instructor) - 1st Lt./Captain B-17H WWII
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:54 AM
snopercod's Avatar
snopercod snopercod is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 1,673
Default

I think Matco will Nickel plate your brake discs for $51 each. I'm not sure what that's supposed to do for you.
__________________
(2019 dues paid)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:50 AM
Piper J3's Avatar
Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hinckley, Ohio
Posts: 1,321
Default

I did communicate with Matco and Iím aware that they offer electroless nickel plating as an option. Electroless nickel plating is primarily used for corrosion resistance and does not have the wear characteristic that chrome provides.

As a data point, I owned a J3-Cub for 23 years that had a STC for Cleveland disc brakes. I hard-chromed the discs when new and they were perfect when I sold the plane three years ago. Not exactly apples-apples because brakes on a Cub are really an afterthought. Once the discs polish up to bright finish they should remain smooth for a long time.
__________________
-
Jim Stricker
Hinckley, Ohio (1OA2)
EAA #499867
PPL/ASEL 1970 - Sport Pilot since 2007
80 hrs Flying Aeronca Chief 11AC N86203
1130 hrs Flying 46 Piper J-3 Cub N6841H
RV-12 E-LSA #120058 AWC July 2012 N633CM
RV-12 Bought Flying Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 421

LSRM-A Certificate 2016
Special Thanks... EJ Trucks - Crew Chief A-4 Skyhawks
and MJ Stricker (my flight instructor) - 1st Lt./Captain B-17H WWII
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-01-2019, 10:24 AM
NinerBikes NinerBikes is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Granada Hills
Posts: 129
Default

Pulsating brakes is usually a sign of warped rotors due to overheating, or the discs being worn so thin as to be out of specifications for being usable.

Remarkable amount of hours between first set of pads and second set.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-01-2019, 01:14 PM
AirHound AirHound is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OFallon IL now, everywhere before
Posts: 287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3 View Post
I fly from a private grass strip in northern Ohio. Needless to say, not much flying in the winter months. So, the spring ritual is to look over the machine really good while I wait for the ground to firm up. Even though I'm based on a grass strip, almost all my flying is from hard surface runways.

Brakes are as important as flight controls for airplanes with free-castering nosewheel. Loss of a brake pretty much means deviating from the runway and having a bad day. Original brakes were replaced at 80TT. Now my second set of linings is due for replacement at 415TT. I think the second set of linings lasted longer because the disc was conditioned by the first set of linings, at least thatís my theory. The brakes pulsate and it has bothered me from day one. The discs are soft steel and get scored-up something awful. I have decided to order new Matco discs and will have Master Chrome in Cleveland, OH hard chrome plate them before use. Master Chrome does hard chrome plating for Cleveland Wheel so I should a good result. The hard chrome surface should stay smooth and eliminate pulsation.

The original tires supplied by Vans lasted 200 hours. The outside edges got scalloped and worn to the thread. I installed Desser 500-5 6 PLY RTO Retread, Elite Premium 2 Groove. At 415TT Iím very happy with these tires. The tread shape has substantially more rubber on the outside edges providing excellent wear. Iím going to rotate tires L-R because right side tire is showing slightly more edge wear. My plan is to run the tires until end of flying season and then I will disassemble the wheels and flip the tires so fresh edge is to the outside. It looks like I should be able to get 600 hours on these tires by remounting them on the wheels when the outside edge is sufficiently worn.

Other than keying tire maintenance off of tread wear, how does one factor health of sidewalls into a decision to replace? Seems like they are taking on some of the load too!

Thanks Doug
__________________
Doug
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-01-2019, 02:44 PM
Piper J3's Avatar
Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hinckley, Ohio
Posts: 1,321
Default

Shouldn't be a problem. These tires are 6-ply, 120 mph speed, and 1800# load rating.
__________________
-
Jim Stricker
Hinckley, Ohio (1OA2)
EAA #499867
PPL/ASEL 1970 - Sport Pilot since 2007
80 hrs Flying Aeronca Chief 11AC N86203
1130 hrs Flying 46 Piper J-3 Cub N6841H
RV-12 E-LSA #120058 AWC July 2012 N633CM
RV-12 Bought Flying Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 421

LSRM-A Certificate 2016
Special Thanks... EJ Trucks - Crew Chief A-4 Skyhawks
and MJ Stricker (my flight instructor) - 1st Lt./Captain B-17H WWII
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-01-2019, 09:42 PM
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 405
Default Itís the landings...

As long as your sidewalls are not exhibiting cracks, your tires are probably fine.

You can retread tire casings several times - tires that are many years old can still be retreaded as long as they meet the criteria - which, BTW, is pretty rigorous, even compared to new tires, so I wouldn’t worry much about the sidewall - as long as it’s not physically damaged.

Although you’ve talked in terms of hours, the real wear on tires is landings, although hours of sitting in the sun will degrade them too. I got 233 landings on my original kit (Aero Classic) tires before I flipped them inside-out on the rim and got another 200 landings, running them down until my finger nail could no longer hook on the outer most siping. But retreads change that dramatically.

I’ve used Desser retreads for years on my Baron, but on the RV-12, I’ve been using Wilkerson retreads, mostly because 500-5 6-ply retreads are often out of stock with Desser. The folks at Wilkerson are wonderful, great service, quick shipping, and at $60 per tire - I’ll run them as long as I can get them.

But in spite of the lower cost of tires for retreads, the real advantage is different tread and sidewall rubber. Tire manufacturers walk a line between having the rubber so hard that the sidewall is too stiff or then going too soft making for faster tread wear.

The Wilkerson 500-5 6 ply retreaded Air Hawks I recently received have 8/32 of rubber tread depth, but it’s a hard rubber - harder than the sidewall. And that’s the big advantage to a retread, because the sidewall can still be softer, pliable and shock absorbing, but the newly added tread can be a much harder composition, giving you the best of both worlds.
__________________
Ron Gawer

- RV10, N1530G (reserved). Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-01-2019, 10:36 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,435
Default

I checked my logs and my main tires were replaced at 440 hrs (Left) and 550 hrs (right) my nose wheel tire shows very little wear at 840 hrs. I replace my brake pads every other year which works out to about every 125 hrs. That usually leaves a little of the wear notch left, and I could probably go another year, but I donít want to risk getting into the rivets and possibly scoring the rotor.

I operate off a paved runway and my average flight is about 1.5 hrs. I donít do touch and goes routinely, so I probably average about 100 landings per year.

Hope that data point helps.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-02-2019, 06:34 AM
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snopercod View Post
I think Matco will Nickel plate your brake discs for $51 each. I'm not sure what that's supposed to do for you.
The Nickel reduces corrosion; something to consider for airplanes that sit a lot outside.
__________________
Ron Gawer

- RV10, N1530G (reserved). Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-02-2019, 08:14 AM
Piper J3's Avatar
Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hinckley, Ohio
Posts: 1,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer View Post
As long as your sidewalls are not exhibiting cracks, your tires are probably fine.

You can retread tire casings several times - tires that are many years old can still be retreaded as long as they meet the criteria - which, BTW, is pretty rigorous, even compared to new tires, so I wouldn’t worry much about the sidewall - as long as it’s not physically damaged.

Although you’ve talked in terms of hours, the real wear on tires is landings, although hours of sitting in the sun will degrade them too. I got 233 landings on my original kit (Aero Classic) tires before I flipped them inside-out on the rim and got another 200 landings, running them down until my finger nail could no longer hook on the outer most siping. But retreads change that dramatically.

I’ve used Desser retreads for years on my Baron, but on the RV-12, I’ve been using Wilkerson retreads, mostly because 500-5 6-ply retreads are often out of stock with Desser. The folks at Wilkerson are wonderful, great service, quick shipping, and at $60 per tire - I’ll run them as long as I can get them.

But in spite of the lower cost of tires for retreads, the real advantage is different tread and sidewall rubber. Tire manufacturers walk a line between having the rubber so hard that the sidewall is too stiff or then going too soft making for faster tread wear.

The Wilkerson 500-5 6 ply retreaded Air Hawks I recently received have 8/32 of rubber tread depth, but it’s a hard rubber - harder than the sidewall. And that’s the big advantage to a retread, because the sidewall can still be softer, pliable and shock absorbing, but the newly added tread can be a much harder composition, giving you the best of both worlds.
I never considered that "retreaded tread" could be harder rubber than sidewall. Might explain why tires are wearing so well. I thought it was my superior airmanship skills...

I just rec'd email from sara@wilkersonaircrafttires.com as follows: Qty 2 500-5/6 retreaded Air Hawks for $60.00 each. Ground freight included.
__________________
-
Jim Stricker
Hinckley, Ohio (1OA2)
EAA #499867
PPL/ASEL 1970 - Sport Pilot since 2007
80 hrs Flying Aeronca Chief 11AC N86203
1130 hrs Flying 46 Piper J-3 Cub N6841H
RV-12 E-LSA #120058 AWC July 2012 N633CM
RV-12 Bought Flying Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 421

LSRM-A Certificate 2016
Special Thanks... EJ Trucks - Crew Chief A-4 Skyhawks
and MJ Stricker (my flight instructor) - 1st Lt./Captain B-17H WWII

Last edited by Piper J3 : 04-02-2019 at 08:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:56 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.