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  #11  
Old 01-15-2015, 02:24 PM
pierre smith's Avatar
pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Default Same wx

Our weather was also 500' and 6 miles BUUUT, my airport doesn't have any published approaches, so how would I get back?

Best,
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  #12  
Old 01-15-2015, 02:27 PM
krwalsh krwalsh is offline
 
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Location: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
So pardon a newbie question from a low time, non instrument flyer. I gather you can depart under conditions well below approach minimums. What happens if you do that and have some problem that requires you to land immediately to sort out? Tough luck, hope you can make it somewhere else?
This is exactly correct. You can depart from a runway with visibilities below the minimums for the approach back to that runway. Your concern is valid, for sure.

There was an accident at PAO a couple years back where the pilot and two passengers took off in a near 0-0 condition. The fog was so thick that the tower controller could not even give them a take off clearance because the controller could not see the plane nor the runway. It did not end well.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...5f77&pgsize=50
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  #13  
Old 01-15-2015, 02:52 PM
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DougJ DougJ is offline
 
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Location: Prather, CA
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The basic (abbreviated) rules I have operated by in my work for Uncle Sam have worked well in that world:

I can plan to an airfield where the forecasted WX is at mins for the approach to be flown at ETA thru 1 hr after ETA. I can initiate the approach in any conditions. If it's forecasted less than 400' ceiling and/or 1 mile vis above mins I need an alternate. An alternates forecast must have better than 400 and 1 mile above mins at ETA thru 1 hr after ETA. Must have 45 minutes (30 minutes rotary wing) fuel reserve at destination or alternate as applicable. Lots of other stuff involved here but we'll just keep it to the wx. For Fixed wing I have some departure alternate things to calculate as well. With over 50 hrs PIC in actual WX I have no Army departure minimums.

So I've comfortably flown this way for years, but I cannot, as a rule, see myself operating a light single of any type using the same criteria. The terrain flown over would have a significant impact on my personal weather mins and I would be VERY careful about temperatures and icing conditions. I would carefully consider my personal condition and proficiency at that moment.

Sounds like you made the right decision Pierre based on the conditions and how you felt about your proficiency at the moment. Based on no approach at the home field you need to have your departure alternate planned and ready to execute in advance as well.
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  #14  
Old 01-15-2015, 03:14 PM
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ERushing ERushing is offline
 
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Location: Underwood, WA
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What was the icing forecast? I think it is actually against the regs to fly an airplane that is not certified for flight into icing conditions if light or heavier ice is forecast at your planned altitude for your route.

Just about done with my IFR training. I've followed this conversation with much interest.

My personal mins will be pretty high for a while but I do feel relatively current flying with partial panel
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  #15  
Old 01-15-2015, 03:50 PM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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With no approach at your airport, you would be required to hold an alternate, which in a -10 is rather easy on full tanks.

So long as the aircraft was fully serviceable and there were airports within range above the "Alternate Minima" (I assume you guys have that rule?) then launching would be quite OK if you expected to get in off the approach.

If the weather was known to be right on the minima and potentially degrading, I would not bother as the likely diversion is just simply annoying. No point launching from A to go to B knowing you will likely be at C.

The big kicker however is ice. Icing and me avoid each other…..or I avoid it. I can fly for hours in IMC, but not when the ice is building. We are not FIKI equipped and have no right being there. Not sure about there, but here that is illegal and any deliberate flight into known icing (and it would be) is simply a no-go.

Piere….you made the right call. Purely by the temperature as the LSALT would have had you in ice for sure. (unless it was a very thin warm layer)
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2015, 04:17 PM
RV-4 RV-4 is offline
 
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Thumbs up IFR MINIMUM

Pierre

'' I didn't feel comfortable''

You made the right call, regarless of the weather.....
----------------------------------------------

For those of you doing or comtemplating taking off in 0/0 weather...give your head a shake...When you see Airliners with triple everything and autoland capability staying on the ground, do you sincerly believe you should be taking off in a puddle jumper???
I spent 12 years in the Air Force in a SAR Sqn. and I picked up way too many of you..Please be careful....

Bruno
rv4@videotron.ca
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2015, 04:20 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krwalsh View Post
This is exactly correct. You can depart from a runway with visibilities below the minimums for the approach back to that runway. Your concern is valid, for sure.

There was an accident at PAO a couple years back where the pilot and two passengers took off in a near 0-0 condition. The fog was so thick that the tower controller could not even give them a take off clearance because the controller could not see the plane nor the runway. It did not end well.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...5f77&pgsize=50
But note this accident had nothing to do with "a problem that requires an immediate return". NTSB says both engines were running fine. The pilot simply failed to climb, for unknown reasons.
It does point out that, as always, when operating close to the ground the tolerance for pilot error is small.
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  #18  
Old 01-15-2015, 04:24 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougJ View Post
The basic (abbreviated) rules I have operated by in my work for Uncle Sam have worked well in that world:

I can plan to an airfield where the forecasted WX is at mins for the approach to be flown at ETA thru 1 hr after ETA. I can initiate the approach in any conditions. If it's forecasted less than 400' ceiling and/or 1 mile vis above mins I need an alternate. An alternates forecast must have better than 400 and 1 mile above mins at ETA thru 1 hr after ETA. Must have 45 minutes (30 minutes rotary wing) fuel reserve at destination or alternate as applicable. Lots of other stuff involved here but we'll just keep it to the wx. For Fixed wing I have some departure alternate things to calculate as well. With over 50 hrs PIC in actual WX I have no Army departure minimums.
.
Wow, your rules were a lot more liberal than civil (part 91) rules.

As I'm sure you know, we need 2000' and 3 miles forecasted (plus an approach!) to be able to go without an alternate. And the alternate forecast has to be 600-2 (precision) or 800-2 (non precision).

So it sounds like Pierre would have had to carry a lot of gas to get anywhere with okay alternate weather; and then he couldn't get home! A good day to stay home to begin with.
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  #19  
Old 01-15-2015, 04:43 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Location: Locust Grove, GA
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Default Timely thread

Wow. I just landed at an airport 9 miles from my home, as it is the first time in 11 years I have not been able to land at the home field. I flew over to Bessemer Alabama to license a Carbon Cub today. They had been waiting for 3 days, as it's been miserable here in Atlanta. Below my minimums, and below alternate minimums. It gradually improved today, as forecast, and I left in a 900' ceiling, IMC the whole way with an easy GPS approach at EKY, breaking out with 2 miles to go to the runway. Easy and smooth IMC, 1 degree below the freezing level. Yes, I checked on forecast and reports of icing before I left. None. The forecast for the return was supposed to be for 2K' scattered by the time I arrived. Instead I ended up breaking out at 400'. No scud running for me. I parked it and Carol came to get me.

The message in all of it is to have minimums like a number of people here have posted. BUT, make sure you are prepared and proficient for the worst, as the weather doesn't always do what it is supposed to do. Make sure your equipment works and brief yourself on failure modes and how you would react. No time to wonder when you are coming down final to minimums. IN IMC flying there are usually long periods of boring cruise. That's when you take the time to carefully study the approaches and choose the right one for you and your equipment.

And with all of this synthetic vision is is really hard to not want to scud run. DON'T DO IT. But it is so cool to look up at minimums and see the runway just like in the screen.

Vic
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2015, 04:44 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz View Post

The big kicker however is ice. Icing and me avoid each other…..or I avoid it. I can fly for hours in IMC, but not when the ice is building. We are not FIKI equipped and have no right being there. Not sure about there, but here that is illegal and any deliberate flight into known icing (and it would be) is simply a no-go.
I absolutely agree. But:
How do you know? If there are pireps on icing where I want to go, I stay on the ground. But the official FAA wx is useless. Around here every single area forecast in the winter says "Chance of icing in clouds and precipitation above the freezing level". If you go to<aviationweather.gov> there are "supplementary" icing forecasts which are the best we have, although they all carry the disclaimer "not for official use". My personal policy is that I'm okay sticking my nose into it and seeing what's there (not freezing rain, of course) as long as I have an immediate exit available. Around here that's common, there's often several thousand feet of warm, vfr weather below the clouds. OTOH I have declined to depart ifr out of West Yellowstone, just because I didn't see a quick way back and it was right at freezing on the ground. So it takes some judgement. Most pilots who get into icing trouble are those who run into it, and do nothing but continue on!
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