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The vans OSH booth

Freedom of choice

Van's can operate their booth and business like the Dept of Motor Vehicles/Drivers License Dept. OR like a eager-to-please, focus on customer satisfaction business. Their choice.

This thread is gold for a business looking for the nuggets. Excellent springboard for internal discussions on how to improve the customer/booth experience. But if your business is swamped with orders you can ignore the feedback. Why would some customers/posters rather not see, or even criticize, these comments?

GA flying faces much bigger threats than Van's focus or disinterest in creating a pleasant booth or phone experience. Pound the rivets, fuel up, and fly, fly, fly, because we all know the slope of the plot of GA hours flown.
 
"Every time I see a partially completed RV project for sale, I think, "if only Van's had been friendlier at the tent.""

Interesting! Wouldn't that reason to stop building be much less probable than:

Burn out?
Fatigue?
$$$$?
Family/life change?
Health?
Frustration with errors?
Other reasons except Van's corporate "bedside manner"?
 
When I hear of problems, all I can think of are solutions.
I have helped out in other booths that I have some little knowledge of, how about if Vans had some of us volunteer as "orderlies and ushers" to at least acknowledge visitors with a friendly greeting? I am sure there would be no shortage of volunteers, and much of the problem would be solved. We could sort of sift thru the visitors, answering the simple questions, and referring them to the Vans experts when needed. In some cases the prospect would even probably prefer to speak with a real Vans aircraft builder and owner than a factory rep. What do you think?
 
When I hear of problems, all I can think of are solutions.
I have helped out in other booths that I have some little knowledge of, how about if Vans had some of us volunteer as "orderlies and ushers" to at least acknowledge visitors with a friendly greeting? I am sure there would be no shortage of volunteers, and much of the problem would be solved. We could sort of sift thru the visitors, answering the simple questions, and referring them to the Vans experts when needed. In some cases the prospect would even probably prefer to speak with a real Vans aircraft builder and owner than a factory rep. What do you think?

Don, I think that is an excellent suggestion, personally. After all, we who inhabit the acres behind the tent are the real sales force for Van's. I would imagine that most prospective builders who show up at their tent, pen and checkbook in hand, have spent several hours wandering the rows and rows of completed RVs on display, asking all kinds of questions of the builders and owners. WE are the sales staff for Van's.

I'm not much of an EAA fan these days. I enjoy Oshkosh less each year. I've often thought about volunteering when I'm there, but I lack the passion for the organization that I once had. However, I would gladly jump at the chance to spend a few hours lending a hand to the Van's crew, even though I'm not really a people-person by nature. I'm more like the Van's guys. :D

Having RV builders/customers acting as triage volunteers to work the crowd has some merit, sifting the tire-kickers from the serious potential customers. I'd be terrible at answering tech questions, partly because I'm no engineer and partly because it's been so long since I did most things that I've forgotten how I did it!

They'd need a bigger tent, I would imagine. Maybe a "Welcome to Van's Aircraft" tent and a separate tent for tech questions and sales.

Or, they could just keep doing what they're doing. It's apparently working. :D
 
Having volunteers assisting is a very good idea, but they should be selected to find people who, when tired or bored, are able to maintain a helpful and very personable demeanor.
Probably better to have a people person than a non people person, lest we have just another similar discussion/thread.
 
"Every time I see a partially completed RV project for sale, I think, "if only Van's had been friendlier at the tent.""

Interesting! Wouldn't that reason to stop building be much less probable than:

Burn out?
Fatigue?
$$$$?
Family/life change?
Health?
Frustration with errors?
Other reasons except Van's corporate "bedside manner"?

It was a joke.
 
I guess I have been visiting that tent with some seriousness for over ten years now. Initially, I thought they were really blowing it--not getting the most bang for their buck. I spent much of my life in marketing, and I used to think I could really help them, if only they would listen. That thought has changed over the years.

Van's tent is a textbook example of the adage, "What appeals to one, may not appeal to another." It is also an example of the simplest form of marketing, selling the product with the least amount of effort. No one can deny the success.

These are the most honest folks on the planet, and they won't change that. True, they aren't marketing people, but I find that refreshing. I was there early this year to help unload their truck (actually a couple of our kids helped while I mostly watched.) Everyone does their part, and the job gets done.

Their philosophy starts right at the top with Dick. Dick and I did two forums together this year, and I couldn't be more pleased to work with that man. Don't expect the Van's tent to change anytime soon. That quiet leadership style has built the finest aviation company at Oshkosh, or anywhere else. Don't go there with the expectation of being stroked; it won't happen. But given the time, these people will give you exactly what you need, and you can count on their work and word. Find that somewhere else...

Bob
 
NOw I will really start to sound like an old man here but way back in 1980s when I first saw a picture of Van's RV-4 on a magazine cover (the one now in the EAA museum) I said, "now that looks like a plane I'd like to build".

Got the info packet - all half dozen pages of typed copy that Van had written I presume that made the case for simple wood props, minimal instrumentation, and the virtues of "total performance". IIRC correctly it said something to the effect of, "if flying to you is droning along sucking on an oxygen hose while ATC tells you where to go..." then the RV isn't for you.

Over time Van's adapted - **** he thought building a side-by-side was a bad idea but the market demanded and the fact the RV-6 remains the all time most popular homebuilt based on completions is testament to the company's ability to admit when it is wrong - even if not publicly. I agree they might benefit from a bit of marketing tweaking - it what they are already doing wasn't working so well. Back in the day it was a lot harder to build an airplane, back in the day you really, really had to want to do so. Now thankfully for all of us the market has been expanded by the addition of the newer models and the increased amount of prefabrication. All leading to more Van's aircraft that all other homebuilts combined I suspect.

But it is still HARD to build an airplane and you won't save any money doing so. Thankfully to Van's success their is a ready market of completed aircraft on the market at very reasonable prices. Build or buy - its a choice we al have because, in no small part, the man just built a company that delivered what it promised and then some. Heck some people now enjoy flying them sucking on an oxygen hose having ATC tell them where to go. And I for one am very glad those choices are now available to all of us. Thanks to one very smart businessman from Oregon.

Speaking of which I toured the museum at Oshkosh and liked the display of Van's airplanes and tribute to Van. But it struck me that the amount of space allotted to lauding Burt Rutan's contributions was disproportional to the impact when compared to Van's. Rutan is a genius and had a huge impact on aviation for sure. No problem with that. But Van's has over 8,000 planes flying and over 500 join the ranks each year. As far as perpetuating this great sport/hobby of ours in terms of commercial success (the one the market demands for sustainability) it ain't even close....

Welcome to the RV world and if you didn't get the welcome you deserved at Oshkosh, hopefully you can tell that everyone here is more thatn ready to help you join the fold.

Richard Bibb
RV-4 N144KT
RV-10 N104HB under construction
Stafford, VA
 
When I hear of problems, all I can think of are solutions.
I have helped out in other booths that I have some little knowledge of, how about if Vans had some of us volunteer as "orderlies and ushers" to at least acknowledge visitors with a friendly greeting? I am sure there would be no shortage of volunteers, and much of the problem would be solved. We could sort of sift thru the visitors, answering the simple questions, and referring them to the Vans experts when needed. In some cases the prospect would even probably prefer to speak with a real Vans aircraft builder and owner than a factory rep. What do you think?

I have several thoughts on this. First, I don't think Vans would ever allow outside help in their tent to answer questions about their product because of the liabilty issues it presents (dissemination of wrong information). However, I could see a real advantage to VAF having a tent next to or close to the Vans tent for people to chat with seasoned veterans on RV issues. The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succession, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something. In my mind, having someone who is both knowledgable, yet humble enough to defer questions is the ticket.
 
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...The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succesion, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something. In my mind, having someone who is both knowledgable, yet humble enough to defer questions is the ticket.

That's not a problem for me. I've had years of practice when people stop by my plane and ask me questions about how I did something, or why something was done a certain way ...

I just say, "Go ask Danny King. He knows." :D :D :D
 
The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succession, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something.

Yes. Everyone has an EGO and does not like to admit that we do not know something. The "Politically Correct" answer would be: "I am unable to answer that right now. If you give me your contact info, I will get back to you with an answer."
 
However, I could see a real advantage to VAF having a tent next to or close to the Vans tent for people to chat with seasoned veterans on RV issues.

Now that would be fun

I am sure that a lot of us with 2,000+ RV flight hours would be willing to help and agree that it would be fun (at least I would enjoy it).

Unfortunately EAA charges for space on the AirVenture Grounds and someone has to pay for it.

Typically the RV Banquet is filled with builders. I typically do not go to the banquet as it is at the same time as an EAA Dinner that I go to. Maybe an RV Lunch or Breakfast could be arranged for a nominal fee that those of us that have more than 15-years and 2,000+ RV Flight hours could meet with builders and future builders to talk and mingle. Dan's Monday evening event was packed and was one such event to meet new RV'ers.
 
I am sure that a lot of us with 2,000+ RV flight hours would be willing to help and agree that it would be fun (at least I would enjoy it).

Unfortunately EAA charges for space on the AirVenture Grounds and someone has to pay for it.

Typically the RV Banquet is filled with builders. I typically do not go to the banquet as it is at the same time as an EAA Dinner that I go to. Maybe an RV Lunch or Breakfast could be arranged for a nominal fee that those of us that have more than 15-years and 2,000+ RV Flight hours could meet with builders and future builders to talk and mingle. Dan's Monday evening event was packed and was one such event to meet new RV'ers.

I don't know what it costs to have a booth, but here are a few ideas to help with cost.
1) Kindly ask people who receive advice to list VAF as the recipient of Van's referral bonus when they order a kit.
2) Share space and cost with another vendor that is situated close to Vans (ie. Cleaveland). Of course sharing a space may violate EAA policies on this.
3) Sell VAF paraphernalia to help with cost.
4) Sell rides to interested folks through a predetermined network of RVers nationwide who agree to do this to help pay for booth rental and/or VAF costs.
 
"Sell rides"?

...anyway, many post in this thread seem to suggest a grass roots uprising to help Van out.

Perhaps the perception IS reality?
 
I guess one would have to ask them, but I don't see it that way. Churches use ushers, they don't get sued if they try to preach. Wal Mart uses greeters, they don't create liability by encouraging one to shop, other vendors use "greeters"and I have never heard of any liability concerns. I am not suggesting salesmen, only a greeting instead of letting people stand around for 30-45 minutes to ask a simple question and leave feeling slighted - and bitter because nobody wants to even acknowledge them. A local Ford dealer hires several young women during a sales event for exactly that purpose. They don't get sued for a young gal saying hello and welcome to the business. So sue ME if you are offended when I say "Hi there, isn't that a pretty RV14 you are admiring?"

I have several thoughts on this. First, I don't think Vans would ever allow outside help in their tent to answer questions about their product because of the liabilty issues it presents (dissemination of wrong information). However, I could see a real advantage to VAF having a tent next to or close to the Vans tent for people to chat with seasoned veterans on RV issues. The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succession, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something. In my mind, having someone who is both knowledgable, yet humble enough to defer questions is the ticket.
 
At OSH or SnF you may admire an RV-X on the line, but you may not ever encounter the builder/owner by chance. That's why a simple sign up sheet in the tent with cell numbers could work - by putting in touch those interested in a certain plane or type with a builder who, by signing up, is happy to discuss the particular plane. That is a lot simpler than booths and scheduling and briefings and the rest...
 
I guess I have been visiting that tent with some seriousness for over ten years now. Initially, I thought they were really blowing it--not getting the most bang for their buck. I spent much of my life in marketing, and I used to think I could really help them, if only they would listen. That thought has changed over the years.

Van's tent is a textbook example of the adage, "What appeals to one, may not appeal to another." It is also an example of the simplest form of marketing, selling the product with the least amount of effort. No one can deny the success.

These are the most honest folks on the planet, and they won't change that. True, they aren't marketing people, but I find that refreshing. I was there early this year to help unload their truck (actually a couple of our kids helped while I mostly watched.) Everyone does their part, and the job gets done.

Their philosophy starts right at the top with Dick. Dick and I did two forums together this year, and I couldn't be more pleased to work with that man. Don't expect the Van's tent to change anytime soon. That quiet leadership style has built the finest aviation company at Oshkosh, or anywhere else. Don't go there with the expectation of being stroked; it won't happen. But given the time, these people will give you exactly what you need, and you can count on their work and word. Find that somewhere else...

Bob

Bob,
Well put. I have been quietly visiting the booth at OSH and other places for several years (6 to be exact). I've been reading and researching kits and kit planes since the early 80's. I have also quietly visited my local EAA chapter and listened in on their comments. I attended a Sport Air Workshop on building an RV.

I purchased an RV 7 kit:
1) Before I got my PPL
2) I've built the emp,
3) My wing kit is 50% complete
3) My 1st brief demo ride in an RV 7 occured at OSH this year (Thank-you Mike for delaying your lunch on Friday to fit me in) ;)
I guess the Vans marketing machine worked on me.
Shannon
 
But it is still HARD to build an airplane and you won't save any money doing so. Thankfully to Van's success their is a ready market of completed aircraft on the market at very reasonable prices.

I wouldn't want to scare anyone away but there's no way I'd be able to afford the plane I'm flying now if I hadn't built it. True, if you add the price of your time, it becomes the same as buying a production plan of similar quality, but I don't add the time in a bar to the cost of the beer. :eek:

That said, the smartest adage I ever heard was "the only reason to build an airplane is because you want to BUILD an airplane."

Personally, I've always felt it much cheaper than therapy.
 
I wouldn't want to scare anyone away but there's no way I'd be able to afford the plane I'm flying now if I hadn't built it. True, if you add the price of your time, it becomes the same as buying a production plan of similar quality, but I don't add the time in a bar to the cost of the beer. :eek:

That said, the smartest adage I ever heard was "the only reason to build an airplane is because you want to BUILD an airplane."

Personally, I've always felt it much cheaper than therapy.
I agree with all but the middle point, which I too have heard quite often.

I also wouldn't be able to afford what I'll be flying when I'm done building. Well, I probably could, but it would mean going into debt and would very likely cause some marital friction. In short -- if I had to buy a flying, 170-knot airplane with a current panel and nice interior and paint, I'd be flying the club 172 and Arrow until I quit flying. I couldn't justify going deep in debt for a toy.

Building lets me spread the cost over a few years, and not pay for the labor required to build the plane -- I'll supply that, and gladly do it in exchange for the repairman certificate and all that goes with being the builder as well as the owner. I can do what I please with the airplane, when I decide to do it, without having to get anyone's permission or approval - and I can do it all myself if I choose to.

So... I'm not building because I really want to build an airplane. I didn't grow up dreaming of building my own plane. I decided to build as a means to an end. People ask me why I'm building an airplane, and I tell them the truth... "Because I'm cheap :)

I would respectfully submit that there ate two reasons to build an airplane: either because you want to build an airplane, or because you're willing to build an airplane. I'm enjoying the building process -- but I doubt I'd do it again.
 
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I wouldn't want to scare anyone away but there's no way I'd be able to afford the plane I'm flying now if I hadn't built it...

Only if spreading the cost is an important element of "affordability". Because if you sold your airplane today, it's worth about what the engine, basic kit and avionics would cost. In other words, all your labor and a percentage of the purchased items are free to the new owner.

I'm looking at Rockets now and I know of several very nice ones that are for sale at a price below the replacement cost of the components. The RV-8 in my hangar was purchased below replacement value, and my Hiperbipe - a complete and flying airplane - is priced at parts value. It is a buyers market.

It is NOT less expensive to build these days... Yes, building is one way to ease into the ownership experience, but from a strictly financial (affordability) perspective, you are better off depositing a check into an airplane savings account than sending it off to Van. Either way, at the end of 5 years, you will have an airplane to fly. ...But one way you get 2500 hours more to spend with your family.
 
My RV-6A build project, all the experiences that have gone into it, the wonderful memories I will always have of somehow getting from page to page through the construction manual, making all those decisions, reading this forum daily, the airshows and all those booths, the travelogs on this site,new friends made, lifetime game changing stuff---I could go on and on. And someone wants me to try to count up the hours, multiply by some hourly rate, and justify that against the price of a storebought flying machine?? Maybe to some it is about the $$, not me.
 
Doll displayed at Sun-N-Fun

Someone posted that Van would never allow a builder to display his/her aircraft at Van's display. I have a picture of Van himself rolling the Doll into his display at Sun-N-Fun.
I have always found the team at Van's to be friendly and helpful. They are first class!

2efi8np.jpg


10zssw5.jpg
 
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Toobuilder, not exactly a correct statement. If you put your money into a savings account for five years ( the money one would have spent on kits tools etc) now you have all this free time. Free time cost money as you are up to something else spending money.
 
I spent an hour or so in the Van's tent last year signing RV-1 prints. They were all very friendly to me. I was talking with one of the Van's folks who works in tech support at the company. He remembered a building dilemma of mine that he handled and I thanked him for his patience while he guided me through my my self induced problem.

I also spent a little time with Van while I was there. He may not be a real flashy
guy, but I found him to be honest and friendly. I think the Van's display tent suits who they are very well. If it ain't broke...
 
Only if spreading the cost is an important element of "affordability"

right. My project is pay as you go. So when it was done, I wasn't in debt. If I'd just bought a plane, I'd be $80,000 in debt.

That's my definition of "affordability." I'm kind of old-fashioned that way. My yankee roots, I think.
 
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right. My project is pay as you go. So when it was done, I wasn't in debt. If I'd just bought a plane, I'd be $80,000 in debt.

That's my definition of "affordability." I'm kind of old-fashioned that way. My yankee roots, I think.

This was a big factor for me as well. I couldn't afford to buy a plane outright, and I couldn't really justify taking out a note on what essentially is a 'toy'.
 
Someone posted that Van would never allow a builder to display his/her aircraft at Van's display. I have a picture of Van himself rolling the Doll into his display at Sun-N-Fun.
I have always found the team at Van's to be friendly and helpful. They are first class!

My RV-10 was on the backside of the booth this year at Oshkosh. I know there is a little more risk with people jumping on it but I didn't have any issues and now my plane is 8 years old with almost 1000 hours, it has plenty of war wounds.
 
right. My project is pay as you go. So when it was done, I wasn't in debt. If I'd just bought a plane, I'd be $80,000 in debt.

That's my definition of "affordability." I'm kind of old-fashioned that way. My yankee roots, I think.

Hey, I'm right there with you. I'm not taking out a loan to buy my next airplane either. But paying 80k over 5 years of kits is not any more "affordable" than paying into a savings account for 5 years and then buying with cash.

I fully understand the desire/need for people to build, but let's not get the terms "behavior" and "affordability" confused. From a strictly financial sense, I can find a clone of nearly anyone's newly completed build project, and own it for less money than you have wrapped up in yours. Or, another way, if you sell your newly completed aircraft, you will likely take a financial loss, even disregarding your labor.

That is the inconvenient truth of today's market. It will cost less to buy than build.
 
Hey, I'm right there with you. I'm not taking out a loan to buy my next airplane either. But paying 80k over 5 years of kits is not any more "affordable" than paying into a savings account for 5 years and then buying with cash.

I fully understand the desire/need for people to build, but let's not get the terms "behavior" and "affordability" confused. From a strictly financial sense, I can find a clone of nearly anyone's newly completed build project, and own it for less money than you have wrapped up in yours. Or, another way, if you sell your newly completed aircraft, you will likely take a financial loss, even disregarding your labor.

That is the inconvenient truth of today's market. It will cost less to buy than build.

I'm not sure how your math works or what you do for a living but in my case I can't put 80k away over 5 years. I did it over 11 years and I took a second job delivering newspapers to help pay for the project. But if you can buy an RV with cash, go right ahead; that wasn't an option for me. I'm just telling you what *I* had to do to have an airplane and it was either build it over many years or not have an airplane; simple as that.

If life were lived in a vacuum and there were no other dollars-and-cents issues facing a family, then -- yeah -- just pay cash if you've got it. That's not how my life is, though, I'm managing maintenance on a home and all the other big ticket items that don't go in the "toy" column. Any time you go into debt, you're creating risk. If you can manage the risk and you've got the ability to do so, I think that's great. But the fine art of "affording" an airplane is a combination of managing cash and risk in your entire estate.

I'm not new to figuring out the financial aspect of building; I've been doing it longer than most people and have more experience in swinging the financing than most people and I make less money than most people in the aviation field, and I'm really the best expert in the field when it comes to the most affordable way for *me* to own a plane.

A lot of people lost homes by going into debt; I didn't. A lot of people lost wives by building; I didn't. A lot of people gave up; I didn't. A lot of people are wishing they had a plane to fly; I'm not.

I'm really quite good at this.
 
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I'm not sure how your math works or what you do for a living but in my case I can't put 80k away over 5 years...

OK, 5 years, 11 years...

Assume a typical builder is still going to drop $30k on the airframe, $30k on the powerplant, and $20k on avionics, paint, and "stuff". My point is simply that no matter how long it tales to build, in addition to a whole bunch of "free" labor, you are going to spend $80k of your cash - and the market says that the same or equivalent airplane can be snatched up by a new owner for $80k or less.

Therefore, if you start building at the same time I start saving, and we both have our first flights of our $80,000 aircraft on the same day, how is your method more "affordable"?

And just to be clear, I'm not wealthy enough to simply crank up the savings account a little and end up with an aircraft in a few years. I am selling an airplane, a classic car or two, and a piece of real estate in my quest to buy a Rocket "free and clear". It may not happen next week or even next year, but I do know that I can buy far cheaper than I can build, so I'll bide my time building the savings account rather than pounding rivets.
 
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OK, 5 years, 11 years...

Assume a typical builder is still going to drop $30k on the airframe, $30k on the powerplant, and $20k on avionics, paint, and "stuff". My point is simply that no matter how long it tales to build, you are going to spend $80k - and the market says that the same or equivalent airplane can be snatched up by a new owner for $80 or less.

Therefore, if you start building at the same time I start saving, and we both have our first flights of our $80,000 aircraft on the same day, how is your method more "affordable"?

If you save $80k over X number of years to buy an airplane, then I dare say you are not a typical saver. The typical saver (or spouse) would find a zillion places and reasons to spend all or some of that money before it ever comes time to purchase a plane. That's just the financial discipline of most. That's why spending a little at a time over the same amount of time is more realistic. I'm sure Dave Ramsey will chime in any time now.
 
If you save $80k over X number of years to buy an airplane, then I dare say you are not a typical saver. The typical saver (or spouse) would find a zillion places and reasons to spend all or some of that money before it ever comes time to purchase a plane...

I agree 100%, but we are now talking about behavior, not affordability.

Many people have multiple accounts in multiple banks just for this purpose. I certainly fall into this category because let's face it, money available is money spent. Certainly, "vacation savings accounts" are a popular way to "hide" money from yourself, and there are plenty of short term investments like CD,s that can "lock up" money just as effectively as sending checks off to Van, Lycoming or Spruce.

Bottom line - It is not any less expensive to send a check to Van, Lycoming, or Aircraft Spruce than it is to deposit that same money in "airplane savings account" at the bank.

If one has to buy aluminum from Van so that it takes away the option of buying bread or insurance for the household, I suspect that person does not have a full "buy in" for the airplane thing. That's a method of "forced discipline" that borders on deception, IMHO.
 
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If you save $80k over X number of years to buy an airplane, then I dare say you are not a typical saver. The typical saver (or spouse) would find a zillion places and reasons to spend all or some of that money before it ever comes time to purchase a plane. That's just the financial discipline of most. That's why spending a little at a time over the same amount of time is more realistic. I'm sure Dave Ramsey will chime in any time now.

Actually, Dave would have posted to this thread a long time ago, and pointed out that no one has any business owning a personal (extravagance) airplane until they have a million $ in the bank.;)

(Not knocking Dave Ramsey, I actually believe in, and live by, the majority of his philosophy's, just not all of them)
 
The booth

To Van's credit. He is very unassuming. He was very soft spoken years ago when we first met. Also to his credit, he has built an astounding business. His most effective sales people are sometimes the ones who have built and or flown them. The stars that shine are the folks who have that twinkle in their eye. That free ride cost me a ton..... so worth it though!!!!
 
I have seen some of the prices on used aircraft and it is true that you can get some planes as cheap or cheaper than you can build but for me, it's not about whether I save a few thousand even though thats always nice.

To me, I want to build a plane with my son and he wants to build one with me. The few thousand I may save can't compare with the experience of building a plane with my son. He's 11 and chomping at the bit. He wants to go to the stores and look at tools as often as we can. He just can't wait and neither can I.

I've often told him that he very well may be the only kid at school that can look at his friends and say" I'm going flying today in a plane that I built with my dad."

Everyone is different and this is my reason for building. Some don't have the desire to build and that's ok but for some, the build is as important as the ability to fly.
 
...Everyone is different and this is my reason for building. Some don't have the desire to build and that's ok but for some, the build is as important as the ability to fly.

Again, 100% agreement. I have a scratch build tube and fabric airplane going right now that defies all financial logic. I'm building because I like to cut, fit and weld sections of tubing together.

But the real point of this latest tangent started back a few pages ago with the financial "advantage" of building. I simply think it is misleading to tell a prospective builder that it is somehow less expensive to build. Build for the experience, yes; build because you can't figure out how to hang on to your money long enough to buy, OK... But don't tell people (or yourself) that building saves you any hard cash over buying.
 
Therefore, if you start building at the same time I start saving, and we both have our first flights of our $80,000 aircraft on the same day, how is your method more "affordable"?

It's not about you v. me. It' s about the theoretical me vs. the real life me.

Look, if your version of affordability is you plunk down 80k all at once for an airplane, I think that's wonderful for you. but that's not even POSSIBLE for me.

What's possible is managing my money in such a way that I can minimize risk at any one time, cover expect expenses inherent in raising a family, build at a pace that recognizes the inconsistent cash flow that normal people have and at the end of it have an airplane with no real debt and all of those other things covered.

I'm sorry you don't agree that's a poor definition of "affordable," but that's the one I've used and it's worked out just fine. For me. Better than the other avenues that were available. To me.

I get that you don't think building can be more affordable than just plopping down cash -- usually in the form of debt and risk -- but at least two people in this thread have told you it is. If it's not for you, that doesn't mean it's not for others. Everyone's situation is different and absolutes come in shades.

Let's move along now. Not sure why the thread got hijacked.
 
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Bob, I agree that we should move this along, but I'd like to point out what I think is an interesting perspective on "risk":

You buy parts as you go with no debt - great. Instead of buying parts, I drop the cash into an interest bearing account with no debt - also great. You write a $1500 check to Van; I write a $1500 check to my savings account. All along the building period, you are accumulating parts which are worth only a fraction of what you paid for them, while I have an increasing supply of liquid cash. This all culminates in the same thing - you have an airplane and I have the cash for an airplane. So here's where the risk issue comes up. What if one of us loses his medical along the way? Which one of us is in a better (read "less risky") financial situation?

Is it the guy with $60k worth of "used" airplane parts in the garage, or the guy with $60k in the bank?

Funny how two pilots can look at the same scenario, yet come to polar opposite conclusions of "risk".
 
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What I said was debt and risk. Debt is risk. The flaw of your analogy is in order to make it, you had to ignore the requirement of debt. We're not looking at the same scenario at all.

Even if we were, I believe both look different when you have kids. I do. You don't. That's why it looks different. Because everyone is different. You get that, right? There are no absolutes. There are rarely the same scenario.

I built. You bought. Confirmation bias alone would lead us to different conclusions.

Let%s move along or set up a new thread.
 
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I've looked at ads for a long time to see what I could afford to buy, and have seen and heard what some flying RVs have sold for. Anyone who thinks they can buy already flying what I'm building, for what it will cost me to build it, is simply not being realistic. As for the "cost" of my labor, it's time I would normally have devoted to a hobby of one sort or other anyway. I just have a new hobby for the next couple of years. If I'm going to be flying an E/AB, I want the bloody repairman certificate.

If you can sock away $60-80K in a savings account until you write a check for an airplane, great -- go for it. That wouldn't come close to buying what I'm building.

So, how 'bout that Van's tent at Oshkosh? What did y'all think about that, huh? :) Seriously, I was really bummed not to be able to go this year, but if I stop at the Van's tent next year it will just be to say hi. Already have an RV. I'll be there to look at avionics, interiors and engines - both vendor tents and in flying RVs. If I were in Van's position, I wouldn't see any need to try to convince people to buy an RV. The product and the current owners do a fine job of that. Now, as for sprucing the place up a little... well, it can't possibly hurt, even if to just make it a little nicer for the guys and gals who have to work the tent all week.
 
Then for gosh sakes save up and buy it if that's what you want to do to have an airplane. I'm not really sure anymore why you're off on this tangent. Building is an affordable way to have an airplane; if you disagree, please go start a new thread. This one got completely hijacked.
 
Fair enough Bob, but please take a look at post #123; that seems to be the point where we went off track.

...just following your lead, buddy;)
 
OK, this will be my last post on the subject in this thread, but I must respond because you missed a fundamental point of my analogy:

Saving up for something and then buying is not debt.

I must be seeing things.........................:p
 
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