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Airworthiness Inspection - It Just Got Harder

C

Catbird

Well Known Member
As I methodically work though my punchlist toward completion of N562E, I've been commumicating with a Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR) associated with our local FAA Flight Service District Office (FSDO). The plan was to have him perform the airworthiness inspection in mid-May with hopes of beginning test flights in early June.

Last Friday (4/20/2012) the FAA Seattle Manufacturing Inspection District Office (MIDO) notified the FSDOs within their region that, effective immediately, the FSDOs and their associated DARs were no longer authorized to perform initial airworthiness inspections on aircraft. From here on, we must submit a formal Airworthiness Application to the Seattle MIDO to have a DAR assigned to perform the inspection. The affected region includes Hawaii, Idaho, Oregon, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming.

Here is what the formal Airworthiness Request must include:
1) FAA Form 8130-6
2) FAA Form 8130-12
3) Photos of three views of the completed aircraft
4) Completed weight & balance
5) Proof of registration
6) Cover letter explaining the request for Airworthiness Inspection

This formal request cannot be submitted until the aircraft is completed and ready for inspection. The Seattle MIDO will then review the request and determine who will perform the inspection.

Has anyone else in the Northwest run into this wrinkle yet?
 
Coincidently, YES!

Funny. I just posted on a DAR question. And yes, Stan Franz from Cubcrafters in Yakima told me exactly the same thing yesterday. It's definitely going to slow down the selection date of my inspection. It also seems really problematic. For just one example, if we can't choose, and since DARs can set inspection rates themselves, can the MIDO choose to have us be inspected by the DAR who's going to charge us the most? I get the impression this is a turf war that we are getting caught up in.
 
I also spoke with Stan Franz at Cub Crafters this morning and he mentioned your RV-9 in Ellensburg. I'm trying my hardest to prevent my frustration from creeping into this message string. Stan is willing to work with us IF the Seattle MIDO will allow him to. But since he's associated with one of the affected FSDOs, it may not happen.

It seems to me that the formal Airworthiness Request is going to create additional work and delay the inspection an unknown amount of time.
 
So who says you have to pay for a DAR? Are our taxpayer paid servants not doing their jobs any longer? Nothing against DAR's, but I feel that I already paid for the inspector in taxes.
 
Ispection

I had my 12 inspection yesterday.
The weighing was ok allthough a bit heavy with all option installed.

Further inspection was ok but for a few minor points.

The inspector was however puzzled about the elevator range.
I adjusted the cables as per instructions but the up angle is quite large and down is quite small. This is limited by the stops at the rear and can hardly be wrong.
I cannot find a reference anywhere what should be neutral position of the elevator.
I leveled the elevator in line with the wing chord line, which I assume to be neutral.
I found the up angle is at least double the down movement, which seems unusual.
On the leading edge the down movement is no more than 1/2 inch.
The questions : is there a known ref point for neutral elevator?
Is the difference normal and is the small down angle enough.

I also put question to VAN's but no response sofar.

The inspector requires a clear statement about this.

Anybody ?
 
Has anything really changed?

I just went through the certification process here in Bremerton, WA using the DAR of my choosing. I also had to submit a formal request for airworthiness inspection which included all of the six items that you listed. In the formal cover letter and request, I simply asked for a particular DAR to be assigned to my project. In about 24 hours, I recieved the ok, and the MIDO forwarded my request to the DAR. This was in early March.
My suggestion is to send your formal documents and request directly to your DAR's contact person at the MIDO.
This is how it all worked out for me.

Regards,
 
Thanks for your input, DJR. Sounds like all of this will come out fine if we remain cool and work the system. It just surprised me last night when I got the call from my DAR.
 
MIDO DAR coordination was same for me nearly 2 years ago

I worked with a DAR but he worked under a specific Seattle MIDO and all of the paperwork went to the MIDO who passed it on officially to the DAR. It all went quite smoothly for me.
 
When I contacted my FSDO (they are a 3.5 hour drive away) well in advance to find out about inspection, I got this reply - basically - "We're busy, get a DAR."
This was OK by me because I wound up working with an absolutely great DAR, he helped me handle every aspect in advance so that the actual inspection went perfectly smoothly. There was only one DAR in my state that had the proper code to inspect for E-LSA as opposed to E-AB.

The reply was:
"Congratulations on nearing the completion of your aircraft. The FAA has
put a network of Designated Airworthiness Representatives together that are
able to assist you with your request. These DAR exist to allow FAA
Inspectors to concentrate more heavily on the oversight responsibilities
they are assigned. Although there is a cost associated with using these
DAR, the assistance they can provide during the certification process is
invaluable. I would suggest you contact one now, as you are contacting us,
to move forward in a timely manner. Please follow this link,
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/lit/local_more/media/dar.pdf
to access the list of DAR in Arkansas. Please note that not all DAR may
have the appropriate authorizations to assist you in your certification
project, but most are. You may want to invest a bit of time interviewing
each to find one you will enjoy working with. If you have any other
questions, please do not hesitate to contact me."
 
Hotscam elevator query

Here's the stats for my UK-based aircraft. I had to do this for my inspector.

Elevator: Up 17 degrees, Down 4 degrees

Elevator Trimmer: Up 21 degrees, Down 32 degrees

Cheers...Keith
 
Catbird,
Sounds exactly the way it worked when I did it last July. The only thing that I see that may be different is I was able to request a specific DAR.
 
Hal-san said:
Catbird,
Sounds exactly the way it worked when I did it last July. The only thing that I see that may be different is I was able to request a specific DAR.
Click to expand...
This is, apparently, precisely the issue. I clarified it with the FSDO today. The MIDO seems to be claiming that they alone get to pick the DAR. The builder does not get to. FSDO does not agree, but they are under the MIDO. Prior to today, I have NEVER heard anyone in the VAF community say they were not allowed to select their own DAR. Not saying it hasn't happened, but in 8 years of monitoring VAF I can't remember such a case.
 
I have been having trouble getting a date for my inspection also No DAR in the area and the closest one is 200mi away wants $750 to come One other wants $450 plus all expense which would be over $1000 I have a tentative date 6 to 7 weeks wait. They want all paper work first.
 
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I think the closest one to me is over 500 miles away. Looks like I should just fly it to a FSDO that can handle it. Maybe make me a ferry permit to go get the AW inspection.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
This is, apparently, precisely the issue. I clarified it with the FSDO today. The MIDO seems to be claiming that they alone get to pick the DAR. The builder does not get to. FSDO does not agree, but they are under the MIDO. Prior to today, I have NEVER heard anyone in the VAF community say they were not allowed to select their own DAR. Not saying it hasn't happened, but in 8 years of monitoring VAF I can't remember such a case.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the only option is to nicely request a DAR in the cover letter. I'm eager to see how this plays out. I've learned a lot from you Steve, and it seems the trend will continue. :rolleyes: Good luck.
 
cln1owner said:
Sounds like the only option is to nicely request a DAR in the cover letter. I'm eager to see how this plays out. I've learned a lot from you Steve, and it seems the trend will continue. :rolleyes: Good luck.
Click to expand...
No, nicely requesting hasn't worked yet either. I did request the guy from Yakima who I've been working with for the past 6 months in anticipation of this (and who's done a number of initial inspections in Ellensburg already), but the Seattle MIDO instead sent me a list of about 25 others from which I could choose. Some as far away as Idaho City ID, Jordan City UT and Reno NV. The only two in central Washington was a guy from Electric City and another from Yakima that I cannot use because he can only do Cubcrafters aircraft. Then most others from the west side of the mountains. In fact, only four on the list are even in the Spokane FSDO that Ellensburg is part of! It also seems to be very random because although there are a couple from Oregon, Gary Brown from Independence OR who monitors VAF, is not on the list. He's working on that. Crazy stuff.
 
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bgl said:
I have been having trouble getting a date for my inspection also No DAR in the area and the closest one is 200mi away wants $750 to come One other wants $450 plus all expense which would be over $1000 I have a tentative date 6 to 7 weeks wait. They want all paper work first.

On this note I want give recognition to Bobby Thomas (DAR) of Laurel, Md. A fine gentleman who handled my inspection and charged a token amount for mileage on his car. I think the total was around $200. He is a hard core EAA'r and a retired banker. He has been around airplanes most of his life and has built numerous aircraft. A fine gent indeed!
Click to expand...
 
In the Northeast (Connecticut) the paperwork provided to the MIDO is exactly as described. Has been that way for years. For both of my planes, I requested an AB-DAR by name and cc:ed him on the application letter. The MIDO knows him, and honored my request both times with no questions. If someone else was provided, I would have gone and had a face-to-face with the MIDO to discuss.

Aaron
 
This sort of thing is why you pay EAA dues. You've done the background work, so get them involved.
 
Glad I live in Dayton

Closest DAR to Dayton Ohio wanted about $600.00 to do the inspection. Checked with the Cincinnati FSDO and they said "We'' be happy to come up (about 70 miles) and do it." They did, at no cost ("You paid your taxes, didn't you?")!! They did ask that an A&P do a condition inspection first, which didn't seem unreasonable to me since another pair of fresh eyes is always a good thing. Half a day and I had the pink slip, operating limitations, and repairman's Certificate. Sure am glad I'm in their region!

Wayne 120241/143WM
 
yankee-flyer said:
Closest DAR to Dayton Ohio wanted about $600.00 to do the inspection. Checked with the Cincinnati FSDO and they said "We'' be happy to come up (about 70 miles) and do it." They did, at no cost ("You paid your taxes, didn't you?")!! They did ask that an A&P do a condition inspection first, which didn't seem unreasonable to me since another pair of fresh eyes is always a good thing. Half a day and I had the pink slip, operating limitations, and repairman's Certificate. Sure am glad I'm in their region!

Wayne 120241/143WM
Click to expand...

I wish the Richmond FSDO was as cooperative. They've told me the simply don't do airworthiness inspections. I guess my tax dollars are supporting inspections at other FSDO offices...
 
Sounds like someone has misinterpreted the rules.
For normal category aircraft, an "original" airworthiness certificate must be issued by a MIDO.

However, an "original" experimental airworthiness certificates may be issued by a FSDO or any DAR holding the proper function codes.
 
yankee-flyer said:
They did ask that an A&P do a condition inspection first,
Click to expand...

They can't legally do that! FAA Order 8130.2G specifically states:

"4102.f.(4)Note: There is no requirement for airframe and powerplant mechanics to
sign off on amateur-built airworthiness inspections. The aircraft builder?s signature on FAA Form 8130-6, block III, attests to the airworthiness of the amateur-built aircraft."
 
yankee-flyer said:
Closest DAR to Dayton Ohio wanted about $600.00 to do the inspection. Checked with the Cincinnati FSDO and they said "We'' be happy to come up (about 70 miles) and do it." They did, at no cost ("You paid your taxes, didn't you?")!! They did ask that an A&P do a condition inspection first, which didn't seem unreasonable to me since another pair of fresh eyes is always a good thing. Half a day and I had the pink slip, operating limitations, and repairman's Certificate. Sure am glad I'm in their region!

Wayne 120241/143WM
Click to expand...

Same with the Columbus FSDO. So far nothing but very cooperative folks.

Bob
 
Airworthiness

If you want to tackle this problem head on, write a complaint to the adminstrator, copy the FSDO or MiDO that started this nonsense, and copy all members of the Congressional Aviation Caucus. Sam Graves and James Inhofe are particularly important. I personally remain polite, but I don't take any of this nonsense from the FAA. THEY WORK FOR ME not the other way around. The experience level in the FAA these days is pathetic. Only a few good knowlegeable inspectors left and they are rapidly retiring.
 
This is something the EAA should be working on to resolve. I hope they are, for this is probably something the AOPA would not be particulary concerned about. And, this is one thing the EAA could do to help show their interest in homebuilders and show us why we need to remain members.
 
EAA

Like they did with AD's. What a sick joke. All the hoopla about AD's is just more of Sir Rodneys smoke and mirrors.
 
DAR

The local FSDO got the boot from the Seattle MIDO, who now will oversee all the original certifications of aircraft. I have been a DAR for the FSDO for 3 years, now no longerneeded. Unfortunately, the MIDO can't service the requests,doesn't have the amateur built DAR's in house to issue. I am in the process of applying to be a MIDO DAR to be able to continue to issue certificates of airworthiness, but the process starts all over from the beginning. Don't get me started on the FAA, I couldtell you stories...... at any rate, let me know if I can assist in builders obtaining a certificate of airworthiness.

Regards,

Gary Brown (503) 269-3907
[email protected]
 
garymail said:
The local FSDO got the boot from the Seattle MIDO, who now will oversee all the original certifications of aircraft. I have been a DAR for the FSDO for 3 years, now no longerneeded. Unfortunately, the MIDO can't service the requests,doesn't have the amateur built DAR's in house to issue. I am in the process of applying to be a MIDO DAR to be able to continue to issue certificates of airworthiness, but the process starts all over from the beginning. Don't get me started on the FAA, I couldtell you stories...... at any rate, let me know if I can assist in builders obtaining a certificate of airworthiness.

Regards,

Gary Brown (503) 269-3907
[email protected]
Click to expand...

Gary, don't totally give up yet.
I also have been struggling with issues related to the power struggle that the Seattle MIDO is having with the Portland FSDO.

Take a look at FAA Order 8130.2G Section 2 (I Think) The section related to general airworthiness. It has some verbiage that does giving the MIDO supreme authority on all First Time certifications. Apparently, because of them not being happy with some certifications that that have been done by some DAR's operating under the Portland FSDO, the MIDO has played their card to exercised this authority.
At the end of the related section in the order, their is a paragraph titled exceptions. If people applying for certification with the MIDO quote this paragraph, it might get you permission to do their inspection.
 
"I am in the process of applying to be a MIDO DAR to be able to continue to issue certificates of airworthiness, but the process starts all over from the beginning. Don't get me started on the FAA, I could tell you stories..."

We should swap stories over a few beers someday, Gary - I could tell YOU a few stories too! You mean a DAR isn't a DAR isn't a DAR in the eyes of the FAA. Great Kuggily Muggily.

The head of the local (KPWT) EAA chapter told me a few days ago that he just had the FAA do the inspection - took a while but he was in no rush.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
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