Van's Air Force
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PIC Logging question
- Thread starter jwilbur
- Start date
Greg Arehart
Well Known Member
Joe,
I believe that if the two of you are flying a non-light-sport airplane, you must be the PIC (and can/should log the time). If you are in a light sport airplane, then you can log time that you spend as the PIC (i.e., manipulating the controls), even if the other pilot takes off and lands the airplane (presuming s/he is legal to fly light sport). This is my understanding of the regs, perhaps others will have a different take.
Greg
I believe that if the two of you are flying a non-light-sport airplane, you must be the PIC (and can/should log the time). If you are in a light sport airplane, then you can log time that you spend as the PIC (i.e., manipulating the controls), even if the other pilot takes off and lands the airplane (presuming s/he is legal to fly light sport). This is my understanding of the regs, perhaps others will have a different take.
Greg
Which side of the airplane you are seated at makes no difference. If the other party is not legal to be the PIC (no medical but you are flying in an aircraft that requires one in order to act as PIC) then you are the PIC. If you never touched the controls you are still the PIC.
No, no, no.
Assuming you are logging in accordance with FAR part 61:
A private pilot can log as PIC time that time he is the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft he is rated in....
This is one of the most misunderstood regs. The key here is that the FAA has defined the kind of experience they want to see for currency or additional ratings (logging of time, except for these purposes, is not required) and unfortunately called such time "PIC time". But the "time logged as PIC" can have no bearing at all on who is acting as PIC! I can easily quote a situation where three people can legally log time as PIC simultaneously, while clearly only one is THE PIC, the one responsible for the safe and legal operation of the aircraft.
In the cited example the rated pilot is THE PIC the whole time. But FAR 61 only allows him to log the time during which he is the manipulator of he controls. I know it makes no sense. Most of us log the time during which we allow non pilot friends to handle the controls. But this is contrary to the regs.
Sorry.
PS Amazingly, your private pilot friend with the expired medical MAY log, as PIC, the time during which he is the manipulator of the controls. There is no requirement that he be THE PIC to log PIC time!
Assuming you are logging in accordance with FAR part 61:
A private pilot can log as PIC time that time he is the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft he is rated in....
This is one of the most misunderstood regs. The key here is that the FAA has defined the kind of experience they want to see for currency or additional ratings (logging of time, except for these purposes, is not required) and unfortunately called such time "PIC time". But the "time logged as PIC" can have no bearing at all on who is acting as PIC! I can easily quote a situation where three people can legally log time as PIC simultaneously, while clearly only one is THE PIC, the one responsible for the safe and legal operation of the aircraft.
In the cited example the rated pilot is THE PIC the whole time. But FAR 61 only allows him to log the time during which he is the manipulator of he controls. I know it makes no sense. Most of us log the time during which we allow non pilot friends to handle the controls. But this is contrary to the regs.
Sorry.
PS Amazingly, your private pilot friend with the expired medical MAY log, as PIC, the time during which he is the manipulator of the controls. There is no requirement that he be THE PIC to log PIC time!
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I love a good regs debate. 
Before I start let me make it clear that Bob is correct. I was perhaps not complete in my answer so allow me to pose a scenario to clarify.
let's set some ground rules so we have a common frame of reference.
First, let's all assume that Pilot A owns some sort of aircraft that requires the airman, while exercising the privileges of their pilot certificate in that aircraft, to hold a medical certificate.
Second, let's all assume that Pilot B is current and qualified in every way shape and form to exercise PIC authority in the same aircraft.
Third, lets all assume that both pilots have, and are conducting operations requiring a Private Pilot Certificate
Here we go.
Pilot A is appropriately certificated and current but due to life getting in the way is just not able to make it to his AME in time and his medical lapsed.
Pilot A calls Pilot B and asks him to come along on a flight because Pilot A's medical has expired and he is not legal to fly.
FAR 61.2.a.5 says in part that you can't exercise the privileges of your medical certificate if it has expired.
FAR 61.23.a.3(i) says you must have a third class medical certificate in order to exercise the privileges of a Private Pilot certificate.
FAR 1. Section 1, Definitions. Pilot in Command is defined as;
1. The person who has final authority etc.
2. Has been designated as the PIC before or during the flight.
3. Holds an appropriate category, class, and type rating etc.
Question. Who is Pilot in Command?
I say (and I think we all would agree) that in this instance Pilot B is the PIC. Pilot A cannot exercise the privileges of his medical certificate because it has expired. The operation being conducted requires a Private Pilot certificate and in order to exercise those privileges requires a medical which is a round about way of saying Pilot A can't be PIC because he doesn't have a medical.
How to log it.
Here is where, as Bob noted, it gets really muddy
FAR 61.51.e is where this is described.
Bob correctly points out that a Private Pilot can only log PIC time when;
1. He is the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft he is rated for.
2. He is the sole occupant of the aircraft
3. He acts as PIC in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by certification or regulation.
Situations 2 and 3 don't count since Pilot B was not the sole occupant and the aircraft type or operation did not require more than one pilot so that leaves us with sole manipulator.
Pilot B was the PIC for the entire flight but could only log the time he manipulated the controls. I do stand by my original answer that it doesn't matter if Pilot B was in the left seat or right seat (let's leave out the Bonanza throw over yoke debate for another thread), Pilot B was PIC.
Before I start let me make it clear that Bob is correct. I was perhaps not complete in my answer so allow me to pose a scenario to clarify.
let's set some ground rules so we have a common frame of reference.
First, let's all assume that Pilot A owns some sort of aircraft that requires the airman, while exercising the privileges of their pilot certificate in that aircraft, to hold a medical certificate.
Second, let's all assume that Pilot B is current and qualified in every way shape and form to exercise PIC authority in the same aircraft.
Third, lets all assume that both pilots have, and are conducting operations requiring a Private Pilot Certificate
Here we go.
Pilot A is appropriately certificated and current but due to life getting in the way is just not able to make it to his AME in time and his medical lapsed.
Pilot A calls Pilot B and asks him to come along on a flight because Pilot A's medical has expired and he is not legal to fly.
FAR 61.2.a.5 says in part that you can't exercise the privileges of your medical certificate if it has expired.
FAR 61.23.a.3(i) says you must have a third class medical certificate in order to exercise the privileges of a Private Pilot certificate.
FAR 1. Section 1, Definitions. Pilot in Command is defined as;
1. The person who has final authority etc.
2. Has been designated as the PIC before or during the flight.
3. Holds an appropriate category, class, and type rating etc.
Question. Who is Pilot in Command?
I say (and I think we all would agree) that in this instance Pilot B is the PIC. Pilot A cannot exercise the privileges of his medical certificate because it has expired. The operation being conducted requires a Private Pilot certificate and in order to exercise those privileges requires a medical which is a round about way of saying Pilot A can't be PIC because he doesn't have a medical.
How to log it.
Here is where, as Bob noted, it gets really muddy
FAR 61.51.e is where this is described.
Bob correctly points out that a Private Pilot can only log PIC time when;
1. He is the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft he is rated for.
2. He is the sole occupant of the aircraft
3. He acts as PIC in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by certification or regulation.
Situations 2 and 3 don't count since Pilot B was not the sole occupant and the aircraft type or operation did not require more than one pilot so that leaves us with sole manipulator.
Pilot B was the PIC for the entire flight but could only log the time he manipulated the controls. I do stand by my original answer that it doesn't matter if Pilot B was in the left seat or right seat (let's leave out the Bonanza throw over yoke debate for another thread), Pilot B was PIC.
Andy Hill
Well Known Member
Similar debates crop up in the UK from time to time. Whilst the rules clearly are written differently, the dilemma remains
The above posts miss, IMHO, the missing link... which is "How legal is it, in a single pilot type aircraft, for the PIC to allow the passenger to manipulate the controls?". Our rules are fairly silent on it as well, but the rules are written as if allowing the passenger to fly the aircraft does not happen.
Clearly allowing a passenger to try flying at 3000' is rather different to them doing the takeoff and landing. I suspect it comes under the area of "do not ask the question if you might not like the answer!".
This got even more confusing after a recent accident report [ Link ] where the "authorities" added some opinions / statements that do not seem written in law:
Bottom line to the OP is I think he should log all the time as PIC, and the non-medical second occupant is a passenger, cannot log the time. Who is handling the controls is between the 2 of you, and were anything to occur that might cause questions to be asked (FAA, Insurance) I would keep it vague until legal advice had been received. As seems to have happened in the above accident (both pilots denying they were PIC!).
It might be that US rules/regs are totally different, but given the OPs question and the replies, it does seem similarly "vague"
The above posts miss, IMHO, the missing link... which is "How legal is it, in a single pilot type aircraft, for the PIC to allow the passenger to manipulate the controls?". Our rules are fairly silent on it as well, but the rules are written as if allowing the passenger to fly the aircraft does not happen.
Clearly allowing a passenger to try flying at 3000' is rather different to them doing the takeoff and landing. I suspect it comes under the area of "do not ask the question if you might not like the answer!".
This got even more confusing after a recent accident report [ Link ] where the "authorities" added some opinions / statements that do not seem written in law:
Bottom line to the OP is I think he should log all the time as PIC, and the non-medical second occupant is a passenger, cannot log the time. Who is handling the controls is between the 2 of you, and were anything to occur that might cause questions to be asked (FAA, Insurance) I would keep it vague until legal advice had been received. As seems to have happened in the above accident (both pilots denying they were PIC!).
It might be that US rules/regs are totally different, but given the OPs question and the replies, it does seem similarly "vague"
Agreed. (with Sam). Doesn't matter who sits where. In fact, I know of one case where, after an accident, the court held that the pilot in the back seat was the PIC.
And here's another crazy example: 3 pilots, A, B, and C. Pilot A owns the aircraft, and B and C agree that he will be the final authority, responsible for the legal operation, e.g., the PIC. Pilot A sits in one control seat, and B in the other. Pilot A allows pilot B to fly the aircraft while under the hood. The weather is VMC, so pilot A will act as the required safety pilot. Meanwhile, pilot C is also a CFII. He sits in the back seat where he can see the instruments, and he coaches and instructs pilot B on instrument flying.
A careful reading of part 61 shows that all three pilots can log the time as PIC time. Only A need have a medical.
As to comparison to UK rules, I am clueless. But the US logging rules are quite clear, while who is actually THE PIC is often determined by the courts, only after an accident. CFIs are often presumed to be the PIC but that need not be true. In fact, by law, designated examiners giving flight tests are not the PIC.
There is no specific FAR banning PICs from allowing non pilots to manipulate the controls. Of course if something goes wrong the FAA will claim you were 'careless and reckless', which is in the FARs.
And here's another crazy example: 3 pilots, A, B, and C. Pilot A owns the aircraft, and B and C agree that he will be the final authority, responsible for the legal operation, e.g., the PIC. Pilot A sits in one control seat, and B in the other. Pilot A allows pilot B to fly the aircraft while under the hood. The weather is VMC, so pilot A will act as the required safety pilot. Meanwhile, pilot C is also a CFII. He sits in the back seat where he can see the instruments, and he coaches and instructs pilot B on instrument flying.
A careful reading of part 61 shows that all three pilots can log the time as PIC time. Only A need have a medical.
As to comparison to UK rules, I am clueless. But the US logging rules are quite clear, while who is actually THE PIC is often determined by the courts, only after an accident. CFIs are often presumed to be the PIC but that need not be true. In fact, by law, designated examiners giving flight tests are not the PIC.
There is no specific FAR banning PICs from allowing non pilots to manipulate the controls. Of course if something goes wrong the FAA will claim you were 'careless and reckless', which is in the FARs.
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This is pretty much exactly the scenario. The regs stated seem clear on the surface, but still, there are situations that don't seem to make sense if applied exactly as stated. For example, I have taken children for rides and allow them to handle the controls for a while. It seems unreasonable to me to not log that time as PIC. Granted, this is very different from the situation I'm asking about, but to me at least, it illustrates an implicit ambiguity in the stated regs. Based on a strict interpretation, in this example you could have a 60 minute flight with only 30 minutes logged by anyone (if the kid flew for 30 mins, for example). Can the FAA have intended this?
FAA probably doesn't intend for the kid to be flying at all!
But in all honesty, I think we're over-thinking it. If one is the only one qualified to act as a PIC on the aircraft, they log the PIC time. Sure they didn't manipulate the flight controls the whole time, but guess what...flip on the autopilot and you're not manipulating the flight controls either!I was about to jump on this one, quoting 14 CFR 91.109 and 61.195 (which references 91.109). These rules say that flight instruction must be provided in an aircraft with dual controls or, in certain situations, a single throw-over control yoke. Clearly the intent is that the flight instructor is the one who has access to the second set of controls, so I wouldn't push my luck on this one by giving dual instruction from the back seat (with no controls), even though I don't see the regs explicitly stating that the dual controls are to be available to the instructor vs. some passenger or other pilot!
To the original poster: I agree with Bob. In the scenario you pose, you can't log the time PIC, even though you'll be acting PIC for the flight. ACTING PIC and LOGGING PIC are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Don't connect them AT ALL. There are specific rules for acting PIC, and specific rules for logging PIC toward a new certificate, rating, or recency of experience. And as Bob mentioned, there are situations where you may be acting PIC but not able to log it**, and vice versa.
If your friend were not a certificated pilot and rated in the airplane, then he may not log the time even if he is sole manipulator of the controls. In this case, one might argue that you can't log the time either (since you weren't manipulating the controls), but I think most agree that at least ONE person may log PIC time for a given flight, and in this example, the only person who could would be the acting PIC (you).
If, in your scenario, your friend was also under the hood, he'd be able to log PIC time for the entire time he was manipulating the controls, and you'd be able to log PIC time for the part of the time he was under the hood. This is true only if you agreed before the flight began that you would be acting PIC.
Fun stuff! ;-)
[** Of course you may log anything you want. Log your driving time to and from the airport. Log the number of flowers you see along the way. But we're talking logging things that may be counted toward a new rating, certificate, or recency of experience.]
Actually the FARs are pretty clear on this. They do not say you must constantly manipulate the controls. It says "sole", e.g., no one else may manipulate the controls, for you to log it. So as long as you turn on the autopilot, and no one else touches the controls, you are the sole manipulator. Same as if your plane was in perfect trim.
Carried to its logical extreme, if you are a private pilot, rated in the aircraft, getting some dual, you should only log PIC time for the 95% of the time you are manipulating the controls, subtracting out the 5% when the cfi was 'helping' or demonstrating. I don't know of anyone who actually goes into such detail.
Here is a related question, whose answer I do not know. Every year I get a questionaire from the insurance company. They ask for "PIC time". Do they mean time logged as PIC in accordance with part 61; or do they mean the total time I have been acting as PIC?
(I have always included student solo time in the PIC total, even though when I got my private student pilots were specifically not allowed to log solo time as 'logged PIC" (the rules have since changed).)
(I have always included student solo time in the PIC total, even though when I got my private student pilots were specifically not allowed to log solo time as 'logged PIC" (the rules have since changed).)
