VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-9/9A
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-12-2019, 09:49 AM
Pat Hatch's Avatar
Pat Hatch Pat Hatch is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Posts: 840
Default Flap Position Indication at Night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderson View Post
Not having done it, is it easy to see the flaps at night?
The answer is no, unless you use a flashlight or if you have a light of some sort illuminating the flaps from the cockpit. This is the single best reason for having a flap position indicator, in my opinion. If you never fly at night or never fly IFR, then you probably don't need it. The RV-10/RV-14 guys, because of the reflex position, probably have further justification for having the gauge.
__________________
Pat Hatch
RV-4 (Gone to RV heaven)
RV-6 (N44PH - Flying)
RV-7 (Sold)
RV-8 (Helped build Bob Lund's airplane)
www.phaviation.com Trim Relay Boards/Flap Actuators
www.pathatch.com/blog (Photography)
Track Me

Last edited by Pat Hatch : 01-12-2019 at 10:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-12-2019, 11:09 AM
JonJay's Avatar
JonJay JonJay is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,064
Default

For those that are considering,.... RV Flaps are not a precision tool. Mike Seager teaches a two step approach, flaps half when abeam the threshold, full on base. My home field is a tight short field. I typically dump all of my flaps when I am abeam and make a "short approach".
If you need an indicator to do this, or even need to "see" what is going on your not in touch with your airplane.

So, I am definitely in the camp of the KISS principle when it comes to the flaps. However, people like gadgets and will justify their use. Nobody wants to be accused of putting something in that wasn't necessary or useful.
I simply don't find flap operation, as designed by Vans, to be an area of concern under any circumstance that I have encountered.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.

RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-22-2019, 04:18 PM
Dan Langhout's Avatar
Dan Langhout Dan Langhout is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL USA
Posts: 467
Default Flap Positioning for IFR Approach

So - when I built my RV-7, I didn't bother to install any sort of flap position sensor or controller. Looking outside at the flaps has worked just fine for VFR flight. Fast forward 4 years, and I am now working on my IFR ticket. My instructor and I worked out that 90 knots seems like a good approach speed - but to get good stability with the pitch and power settings requires just a bit of flap. Problem is the repeat-ability of the "one-a-thousand, two-a-thousand, three-a-thousand" method of flap deployment. I have a piece of masking tape on the flap at the moment to help me get a handle on it, but of course that wouldn't work at night. Was really considering a position sensor to read out on my Dynon Skyview. I don't think I want the extra complexity of a full blown flap position controller.
__________________
Dan Langhout
2019 =VAF= Dues PAID . . . . .
RV-7 N528DP slow build
First Flight July 26th, 2014
401 hours and counting . . . .
Now based at Moontown (3M5)
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:58 PM
JonJay's Avatar
JonJay JonJay is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,064
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Langhout View Post
So - when I built my RV-7, I didn't bother to install any sort of flap position sensor or controller. Looking outside at the flaps has worked just fine for VFR flight. Fast forward 4 years, and I am now working on my IFR ticket. My instructor and I worked out that 90 knots seems like a good approach speed - but to get good stability with the pitch and power settings requires just a bit of flap. Problem is the repeat-ability of the "one-a-thousand, two-a-thousand, three-a-thousand" method of flap deployment. I have a piece of masking tape on the flap at the moment to help me get a handle on it, but of course that wouldn't work at night. Was really considering a position sensor to read out on my Dynon Skyview. I don't think I want the extra complexity of a full blown flap position controller.
I would amend my previous statement and add if it reduces your workload....
I would speak with folks who regularly fly RVís IFR and see.....
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.

RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:23 PM
N941WR's Avatar
N941WR N941WR is online now
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 11,904
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
For those that are considering,.... RV Flaps are not a precision tool. Mike Seager teaches a two step approach, flaps half when abeam the threshold, full on base. My home field is a tight short field. I typically dump all of my flaps when I am abeam and make a "short approach".
If you need an indicator to do this, or even need to "see" what is going on your not in touch with your airplane.

So, I am definitely in the camp of the KISS principle when it comes to the flaps. However, people like gadgets and will justify their use. Nobody wants to be accused of putting something in that wasn't necessary or useful.
I simply don't find flap operation, as designed by Vans, to be an area of concern under any circumstance that I have encountered.
I am 100% in this camp with the RV-9, especially fixed pitch RV-9's and -9A's!

IFR is a different story and you need to fit in the system, when doing an approach IFR.

Because of the high lift Roncz airfoil and long wing on the -9, its landing speeds are much different than the short wing RV.

My recommendation, regardless of crosswinds in the -9 is to put out all the flaps abeam the numbers, trim it for 60 knots when heavy and 55 knots when light. Then fly the entire pattern at that speed.

This gives the -9 pilot the ability to fly a VERY stabilized approach while flying well above the stall speed.

It also means you only need two flap setting, all the up or all the way down.

For short and/or soft fields, I lower the flaps to match the down aileron, which works out very well.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:07 AM
airguy's Avatar
airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 4,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
I am 100% in this camp with the RV-9, especially fixed pitch RV-9's and -9A's!

IFR is a different story and you need to fit in the system, when doing an approach IFR.

Because of the high lift Roncz airfoil and long wing on the -9, its landing speeds are much different than the short wing RV.

My recommendation, regardless of crosswinds in the -9 is to put out all the flaps abeam the numbers, trim it for 60 knots when heavy and 55 knots when light. Then fly the entire pattern at that speed.

This gives the -9 pilot the ability to fly a VERY stabilized approach while flying well above the stall speed.

It also means you only need two flap setting, all the up or all the way down.

For short and/or soft fields, I lower the flaps to match the down aileron, which works out very well.
The "all flaps out abeam the numbers" idea works pretty well for low-traffic airports, but trying to fit in with a fair bit of business traffic at a busier airport makes it a little more interesting. I fly my 9A into work frequently and there is a rush of King Airs and Lears coming in right around the same time I typically arrive at the non-towered field. It's not unusual for me to pass abeam the numbers at 130 KIAS and then throw out the anchor to fit in with the other traffic. The constant speed prop makes an excellent airbrake and it's not hard to slow it down for even a tight turn to short final. Preferred technique? Certainly not - but it can be done.

IFR approaches are pretty stable in the 9A at 90 knots, and it does like about 10 degrees of flaps for that. I use the Showplanes flap positioning system, three bumps down of the momentary switch (on the stick) for 10/20/full on the flaps, and then flip the switch up for full retract and stop. It makes go-arounds so simple - power up, nose up, flaps up - just about that fast and you don't have to worry about counting seconds for the flap extension/retraction, much less take your eyes off the panel to visually check them.
__________________
Greg Niehues - PPSEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2019 dues paid
N16GN flying 380hrs and counting! Built an off-plan 9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-23-2019, 10:56 AM
flightlogic's Avatar
flightlogic flightlogic is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 1,507
Default

Hey Greg, I got a question for you... (and yes... there are dumb questions, we all know that)
To make use of slowing with your CS prop, do you pull the pitch back or shove it in? I don't have that prop, but have been teaching the new owner how to best use his Hartzell.
And for those who don't use a flap indicator... I used a protractor and found 10 degrees. There is a sharpie mark on the flap itself. I can see that mark day or night looking over my shoulder. The mean time between failure was calculated at 36,000 hours. By then the rain will have taken it's toll.
__________________
"Kindness is never a bad plan."

Work bio: Avionics tech support; ATP rated in planes and Helicopter Instructor law enforcement tactical radio systems. Blessed to fly my RV9A to work every week.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:16 PM
airguy's Avatar
airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 4,468
Default

I haven't bothered with shoving the prop to full RPM, though it would increase the drag due to more engine braking. I've found that my normal 2500 rpm cruise setting with closed throttle is quite sufficient. I use 2700 rpm for takeoff but generally not for touch-and-goes or landings as the additional energy is simply not needed unless I'm loaded to the gills or at high density altitude. With any decent amount of forward energy already available the engine at 2500 rpm will make it jump right back off the ground again for a rejected landing or go-around.
__________________
Greg Niehues - PPSEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2019 dues paid
N16GN flying 380hrs and counting! Built an off-plan 9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:10 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.