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Some thoughts on "perfection"

R

rvbldr3170

Active Member
I am one of those guys that is not a perfectionist, and my airplane won't win any awards, but I wanted my airplane to be the best that I could build. When I was doing the final assembly I had a laser level and all that. Well, guess what, I found discrepancies almost everywhere I looked. 1/4" here, 1/2" there, and I obsessed over trying to get the thing perfect.
I have a twist in my left elevator such that with the leading edges of both elevators lined up with the leading edge of the HS the inboard trailing edge of the left elevator is 1-1/4" lower than the right one.
When I rigged the flaps I had to put a 1/2" joggle on the inboard end of the skin so it would sit flush with the fuselage, and the right flap doesn't.
I called the boys at Van's and they said "go fly". So with trepidation I did just that.
Well, guess what, my airplane flew hands off straight and level on the first flight. My point is, don't obsess over minor discrepancies in dimensions. As it has been said many times on this and other forums, these airplanes have been built by over 7,000 people, and I can promise you, every one has at least one thing the builder can point out that is not exactly the way he wanted it to turn out.
 
Thank You!

Being one of those CDO types (OCD, only arranged alphabetically) I get discouraged and will walk away from my project for days when things aren't perfect. I also know I don't have a great finesse for the finishing touches and there is a certain dread to that. Your encouragement means a lot. Thanks for thinking of others with your "confessions".
 
That having been said......

....when it comes to control surfaces, I would be meticulous and cautious in incremental flight test envelope expansion to explore flutter near or past NTE. Even dimensionally identical control surfaces can be improperly balanced, flutter and depart the airplane.
 
A friend bought a finished RV-3. The 1/2 inch plus twist in one aileron bugged him.

He built a new, straight aileron - din't notice any difference in handling or speed. It did look better though...:)
 
Thanks your words mean a lot to me, I too have been OCD'ing over every detail with an eye on fast, its nice to lnow that those "little things that make my plane a true custom - one off" will not impact me as much as I thought they would, in the end, I think it will cost me a few kph, but thats what H.P. is for!
 
I Think you have to use some common sense

A variation in the location of a rivet in a pattern is trivial but for goodness sake don't let anybody tell you that rigging is not important. The people at Van's know the builders are not all the best sheet metal workers in the world and they cut some slack on perfection. How much error you want to allow in the rigging of you creation is on you - not them. They know it will fly and if that satisfies your performance needs everybody is happy. On my airplane everything is rigged to the canopy deck reference plane and the central vertical perpendicular axis.


Bob Axsom
 
OK

This is an attitude matter I quess not a technical one as I had originally thought. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

Bob Axsom
 
"Better is the Enemy of Good Enough"

Couldn't agree more !!

Work out what is a sound and tidy level of workmanship and dont try to make things perfect. It inevitably winds up making the finished job worse as well as being scandalously time consuming.



The quote "Better is the Enemy of Good Enough" is worth a google BTW - learn a bit about Soviet Naval history :)
 
Just don't let "cosmetic perfection" morph into complacency on "system perfection" later on down the road. Van's structure is such that a few minor deviations are usually not a problem but when it comes to systems like fuel, flight controls, and engine, there should be no compromises on quality.
 
Walt said:
Just don't let "cosmetic perfection" morph into complacency on "system perfection" later on down the road. Van's structure is such that a few minor deviations are usually not a problem but when it comes to systems like fuel, flight controls, and engine, there should be no compromises on quality.
Click to expand...

Precisely! "Good enough" is a slippery slope. There are no perfect airplanes, but perfect is just good enough for some parts of airplanes.
 
If "good enough" isn't "good enough", then you haven't defined "good enough" properly.....

I am in the "perfection s unattainable" camp, but also believe that a certain level of quality is required. the greatest failing is that people don't get proper mentoring and oversight to understand what is "good enough" in aviation. It is usually better than what most of us learn for household repairs, but it's not rocket science either.

If you don't know how to rig controls, make good flairs, shim bearings and joints....take the time to find out from someone who knows. That's what Tech Counselors are for. Yes, aviation work is different - but you can learn it if you take the time.

Paul
 
Sometimes we just get lucky.

While I do agree that "good enough" is a slippery slope, I also agree that there is a certain level of competence required when building an airplane.

That said, I look to my own experience and marvel at Danny King's assessment of my skills after he made Smokey's maiden flight:

"Well, somehow all of your screw-ups over 13 years managed to cancel each other out and the plane flies hands-off."

With friends like that ... :D

The moral of the story is that, even with moderate skills and attention to detail, sometimes we just get lucky. I have no other explanation for my success.
 
I've had a thought bouncing around my bee-bee brain but didn't have an appropriate place to expose it. Maybe this is the thread.

I read the forum almost daily since starting my -8 almost a year ago. What troubles me are questions posted that indicate the poster shouldn't be building aircraft. Now sometimes a question only sounds dumb until it is brought into context, but I've read questions that clearly indicate the poster is intoxicated or simply a fool.

This forum is a wonderful place, well managed and invaluable to all builders and buyers of Vans Aircraft. But do we have any responsibility to point out or maybe even discourage an incapable builder?

I know many have had the same thoughts. Maybe even about a thread I started. Then again maybe this isn't the place. Hopefully those with questionable build skills are better pilots and not a danger to anyone.

If this was a forum about basket weaving or gardening it would be different but these people are sharing airspace with innocent people.

Rant over.
 
Blain, I agree somewhat.

We have a builder in our area that looks like his airplane was built with the " if it doesn't fit, get a bigger hammer" theory. I'm not sure that his airplane is airworthy or that he even had it inspected. However, it's flying. I have also been to a flyin, specifically the old, long-gone yearly RV Lakeland flyin, many years ago and saw an RV that was unbelievably shabby. We all wondered if it was a static display because it didn't look like it would hold together long enough to have been flown in.

Question is: do we have the responsibility to question/report others work or do we just fill in the accident investigators?
 
At times I catch myself obsessing over a mark I cant get just right on a 1/32" measurement and I have to tell myself, "It's as close as I can get it!"........ I have been tweaking my canopy frame for a while. After reading a ton of posts and articles on the subject beforehand, I promised myself I would not spend months on this step as some of the nightmares I read about. I have it close to where I want it and I will force myself to move on. I think building this plane is like living your life, you have to compromise at times. Knowing when to compromise and when not to is the key.
 
Blain said:
I've had a thought bouncing around my bee-bee brain but didn't have an appropriate place to expose it. Maybe this is the thread.

I read the forum almost daily since starting my -8 almost a year ago. What troubles me are questions posted that indicate the poster shouldn't be building aircraft. Now sometimes a question only sounds dumb until it is brought into context, but I've read questions that clearly indicate the poster is intoxicated or simply a fool.

This forum is a wonderful place, well managed and invaluable to all builders and buyers of Vans Aircraft. But do we have any responsibility to point out or maybe even discourage an incapable builder?

I know many have had the same thoughts. Maybe even about a thread I started. Then again maybe this isn't the place. Hopefully those with questionable build skills are better pilots and not a danger to anyone.

If this was a forum about basket weaving or gardening it would be different but these people are sharing airspace with innocent people.

Rant over.
Click to expand...

While I understand what you're saying Blain, I think that you are underestimating the capacity for learning - and overestimating how much you can learn about someone from the internet. Remember that we all knew nothing about anything until we were taught (or learned by trial and error). Yes, there are times I read a post which makes me wonder if a person has a clue about what an airplane even looks like. But I see that as a teaching moment, not an opportunity to ostracize.

Are there people who should not build an airplane? Absolutely! But anyone that wants a try needs to be given the chance, and one-on-one mentoring is the way to help them find out if they can do it. As a Tech Counselor, I have seen some positively dreadful work, but that has given me an opportunity to teach, and in almost every case, the builder has turned the project around and made it shone. That is rewarding for everyone.

ANd there have been one or two cases which were bad enough that I knew the person was never going to get there regardless of what we did - but it was self-safing, because I knew they would never get close to finishing. I still gave them instruction and showed them what they needed to do, of course - but I wasn't worried that the airplane would be dangerous, because they'd die of old age before they'd get to the DAR stage.

Paul
 
Marilyn bought an RV-4 so she could keep an eye on me while I get my RV-8 up to speed. :rolleyes:
If I had known how nice the -4 flies, I might never have built the -8.
Anyway, I think it was a show plane when new, it has a nice interior and is covered with lots of flood primer and thick paint. The build quality is not spectacular, but it is sturdy and well built.
Over the years, it has picked up a few dings and age lines. Now it's getting on-going maintenance. The ailerons have been backed into hangar pillars so I got replacement ailerons from VANs, and some 'matching paint' from the local automotive paint store.
So this thread is appropriate for me. The RV-4 is in service, it's not perfect. The aileron replacement therapy should help with the roll trim, I'll certainly feel better because the old ones 'oil can' a little when gently squeezed near the damage/repaired area.
It won't be posible for me to match this up "to perfection" but I'm confident it will be better than it is currently, and hopefully "excellent" in operation. :)
 
Talking about perfection, while I was in the navy we made repairs that were "not so perfect" due to time restraints. They were always airworthy, but we didn't always have the luxury of making it look pretty.
Now fast forward 20 years to my current project. After much searching I finally found a guy to weld up my canopy frame. (Supposed to be this hot-shot aluminum welder). Well, my dog could have done a better job. It's structurally sound but looks terrible. So I'm thinking about grinding down the welds and finding someone else that can tig weld some beautiful beads, even though most of it will be hidden from view.
 
Flutter bug...

WSBuilder said:
....when it comes to control surfaces, I would be meticulous and cautious in incremental flight test envelope expansion to explore flutter near or past NTE. Even dimensionally identical control surfaces can be improperly balanced, flutter and depart the airplane.
Click to expand...

Bill,
Agreed, up to a point. Having flown 239 different individual RV's in the past 25 years (as of today) not a one was perfect. In fact, My two personal RV's and Harmon Rocket all have/had dings and dents in the control surfaces. Hangar rash happens, as do building imperfections. My HR2 with a stock RV4 empenage easily achieved 230KIAS in a descent, well beyond RV4 VNE with nary a burble. However, I digress...

While commuting back from F16 Guard duty several years ago in my RV4 I was descending around some Thunderstorms above 13K at VNE and encountered what I then considered to be flutter. I wrote an article about it and Van and I exchanged emails for quite awhile on the subject. Turns out my issue was a slightly loose trim tab, way more critical on an RV than imperfections. This doesn't excuse shoddy workmanship or downright crooked surfaces. However, I think you will find the airplanes much more forgiving throughout the flight envelope than you perceive...

V/R
Smokey

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=18256
Flutter Topic on this thread a few moons ago...

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
Vans Article
 
To expand on what Blain & Paul were discussing;
I took VAN's Sheet Metal Class in the 1980's when it was held in VAN's home hanger in North Plains. Art Chard was teaching and Ken Scott was 'in' the class.
There were other students in that class...I never would have thought could even conceive of building a plane; a retired school teacher husband & wife team come to mind, and others.
As the course advanced from day-to-day, I was quite pleasantly suprised at how well and quickly these 'unlikely builders' picked up the craft.
You never know who is going to turn into a builder.
 
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Whenever something isn't perfect on my plane, and is just a cosmetic issue, I just remember all the imperfect spam cans I've flown over the years...airworthy yes but perfect heck no
 
+1 to Paul's Comments

It's easy, once you've learned to build an airplane, to look down your nose at others who haven't yet learned or don't understand what an undertaking it is. However, remember that: 1) you were once them, 2) only a small percentage make it to the finish line, and most importantly 3) we should all be FREE to pursue our own happiness, even if it includes embarking upon this crazy voyage. My $0.02.
 
Early in the construction of my 9A, I decided the HS mounts weren't "good enough" and made another set, perfectly. After a year or so, I looked at the offending parts and wondered why I scrapped them. About that time I helped our local A&P change out a similar part in a Tomahawk. It had a habit of cracking and had to be changed every 2000 hours. I looked at it--it had deep scratches, a notch where something had been ground out, and it looked like it had been sheared with concrete dies. I keep it, and the 9A HS mounts, in a case to show the difference between our airplanes, and those "professionally" built. It has changed a lot of opinions on "homebuilts."

Bob
 
Well, I must say switching from the RV-4 (measuring, jigging, measuring, drilling, cutting etc) to the Onex (all holes pilot drilled, all angles machined, laser cut parts) is like going from one world to another. With the RV-4 every single hole could go wrong, every cut could be off, every line-up could be twisted, and the drawings are terrible and not even to scale - any scale. With the Onex no holes can go wrong they are all pre-made with precision CNC and the same goes for all the cuts and angles, and therefore nothing can twist or warp, the drawings are first class. I guess it's the same difference between the -4 and the newer generation RVs.

The new, modern kits ARE perfection as far as I can see, digital precision by CNC machines. If you follow the process, do things in the right order, very little can go wrong.

With the new generation kits, the most important skill you need is to follow instructions. With the the RV-4 you need a whole set of skills, and only the most skillful will ever have a chance of reaching the perfection of the pre-punched kits. Is this precision needed? Probably not, but the average quality of finished pre-punched airplanes are on a different level, and dangerously poor quality airplanes don't even exist.
 
I was thinking along the same lines as Paul. An RV - at least to completion - is fairly "self-safing" as far as the build goes. Although I guess items could be missed during a DAR inspection, I would like to think gross, airworthy questionable items would not be.

I am a first time builder - just drove from Ga to Md today to attend an EAA workshop this weekend. The past week or so has been spent using my new tools and practicing with some scrap sheet/angle (practice kits just arrived) and I already see improvement and feel much more comfortable with several of the techniques.

I think more important than a build aptitude is attitude - to see things through, keep your chin up during the inevitable setbacks, know when to seek the opinion/advice/help from your tech counsellor, and know how to receive and improve from constructive criticism - at least this is what I'm telling myself! After all, a large part of my desire to build comes from all the learning that I will be doing along the way.
 
ppilotmike said:
It's easy, once you've learned to build an airplane, to look down your nose at others who haven't yet learned or don't understand what an undertaking it is. However, remember that: 1) you were once them, 2) only a small percentage make it to the finish line, and most importantly 3) we should all be FREE to pursue our own happiness, even if it includes embarking upon this crazy voyage. My $0.02.
Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail (rivet) on the head. I didn't consider those points. I've been building something since I was 5. OK, maybe 10 but the point is anyone can learn and not everyone has had the opportunities I've had. Probably one of those time that I should have kept the opinion to myself.

Just today I was talking with a repeat offender about gear alignment. I spent most of a weekend looking for a 1/16". He puts a builders square to it and drills in 10 minutes. One of those cases of obsessing over an insignificant detail.
 
Only 12 hours in the air and already I'm wondering why I fussed over and remade so many parts of my plane. I did waste a lot of time fussing over insignificant details.
I rarely hit the bulls eye but that doesn't stop me from aiming. When I started the build I figured I would aim for an outstanding build and that way I would end up with a better than average build.
 
Andy!
That's the ticket! Aim high and keep at it. You expressed the way my build turned out perfectly.
My plane has a few smiley rivets and other defects.
I have flown it about 2.5 hours now, and it seems to fly perfectly! No heavy wing and stalls straight ahead if I keep the ball in the center. :D
Building the flush lighting kit into the (old style) wing tips; what a time consumer!
Now I would build faster and accept the compromise of external tip lights. Instead I would talk about the savings in weight.;)
Keep it as light as possible.
 
crabandy said:
Only 12 hours in the air and already I'm wondering why I fussed over and remade so many parts of my plane. I did waste a lot of time fussing over insignificant details.
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The trick is knowing what is insignificant. Some things don't matter much, some things are better if done better, and some things have near zero room for error.

I rarely hit the bulls eye but that doesn't stop me from aiming. When I started the build I figured I would aim for an outstanding build and that way I would end up with a better than average build.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
DanH said:
The trick is knowing what is insignificant. Some things don't matter much, some things are better if done better, and some things have near zero room for error.

Well said.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Being an engineer I always try to find out how things work. So, I spend way too much time figuring out what is significant and what is pure aesthetics. And when I find significant stuff, I always have to get to the bottom of it, get the details right. In the end I think I know pretty much what is significant and what is not. Does it help getting the airplane together faster? Not a single bit :D

It's fun and interesting though, but it's also the main reason I have put my RV-4 on hold and are building a Onex. I just have to have an airplane flying fast :)
 
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