Skyview Version 10

Been running the new SV 10 and am very pleased. Despite my being a vocal touch screen hater, I think I will spring for the touchscreen upgrade as well. They've done it right.

Things I really like:

The Six Pack. Although I've been flying Glass Panels for almost 35 years, I'm still not crazy about the vertical tapes. The VSI I found especially hard to use, as the needle jumped around and the numbers were even worse. The analog Six Pack is a superior, more intuitive display - for me at least. Like the difference between a digital watch and an analog one. I think I'll make it my primary display. It fits like an old shoe.

It comes in two flavors - with and without Syn Vis.





I like the Plane Jane better - the Syn Vis is too distracting for me - even using the EFIS display, I usually turn off the Syn Vis most of the time. (If Dynon would add Traffic Info to the non-Syn Vis PFD - as I have on my Wish List - I'd be completely happy.)

A REAL Plus for me, and one not talked about much in their Promo material - or the Handbook - is the new selectable Map Terrain display option.

Here is the original - showing hills, roads, etc - to me it's cluttered and a lof of the callouts are washed out and hard to read.



By pushing Terrain, you get a simplified Map that is bold, easy to read, less cluttered. I like it - a lot - and will use it as my main map display - I don't need to know all that stuff about what's on the ground.



Plus, you retain the TAWS Terrain Awareness and Warning info:



One thing I really like is it's easy to see the little airplane symbol - very hard (for me) on the old display (another item on my submitted Dynon Wish List.)

Here's the whole enchilada for me - the Plain Jane Six Pack and the new Map Display:



Makes me a Happy Camper.

Now, if I could just download the Sectional and IFR Charts from Seattle Avionics without the hassle I'm current having, I could test those features as well.

Bob Bogash
N737G

I see that your CHT bars are a bit out of whack - vertically. Seems this appears on RV-12s updated to SV Version 10. Dynon says they are working on it.

Yes, as I've posted over on the Dynon Forum, that's the case for all three EMS screens. They're acquiring bug reports over there and I'm sure there will be a maintenance release update in time.

Not a biggy for me right now.

Bob Bogash
N737G

Nice pirep,
I've purchased the Seattle avionics charts but can't seem to get them loaded, I found the plates but don't know how to geo ref them.
Your screen shots make me miss the NW flying.
Lee in Az
253VA SLSA

Where's the picture of the Six-Pack, the Moving Map, & the EMS all on the same screen

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the reminder that I should be updating the screen.

John bet me to it I can't quite see the EMS on your display.

I wonder how Dynon are going to keep market share with the ability of having the dual screen Garmin RV12 shortly. As Bill said the other day I just didn't see this coming.

Cheers

Julian 120316

J.Coles said:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the reminder that I should be updating the screen.

John bet me to it I can't quite see the EMS on your display.

I wonder how Dynon are going to keep market share with the ability of having the dual screen Garmin RV12 shortly. As Bill said the other day I just didn't see this coming.

Cheers

Julian 120316

Click to expand...

Dynon has me for life, or for so long as map/data updates are free.

Very impressed

Moving from a certified aircraft to an experimental has put me in a position to do a lot research in the past year. While buying my RV7 I knew that I would have to change out the EFIS eventually (I bought the plane with a 4th Gen BMA). Knowing this I've been looking at Garmin and Dynon very closely and reading everything I can get my hands on regarding both technologies. Coming from the certified aircraft world my first thoughts were, hands down it has to be Garmin. There is absolutely no arguing that Garmin makes great products, however, I must say that I'm very impressed with the Dynon and their attention to detail. I'm going to start building a new panel in the next month or so and I have to say that this is certainly a hard decision. I'll be very interested to read some more PIREPS on the SkyView Touch and the Garmin G3X Touch. Both have excellent features but I have to say the Skyview's ability to use buttons especially during turbulence is huge... We'll have to see.
Thank you so much for the PIREP of the new Skyview software version. Very informative.

Well, of course, the EMS can be popped up, made into three sizes, switched left, right, and center etc. etc. I show it on some screen shots and on others, I hid it to show the feature I wanted most clearly.

There have been many discussions over on the Dynon Forum for some time on the EMS display. Some folks (including me) would like to have it as a thin band along the bottom to give more real estate to the PFD and Map. Actually, I'd like to have a few EMS parameters (like RPM or MP) made into widgets that could be displayed on the Map page borders, like some of the Nav params are now.

The more I fly, the more I covet the EMS real estate, and the more I realize I almost never look at that stuff. So, increasingly, I don't display it in flight (I use it Full Screen during start-up and taxi-out.) I've already "thinned out" the params that are shown - especially on the skinny display - as it was way too cluttered. Still is. What I depend upon is the Dynon monitoring and verbal warnings - if there's a problem, the gal tells me and I can pop it up with a button push. If I'm on a long cross-country, I can pop the EMS screen from time to time to just do a How-Goz-It.

One of the great things about Dynon is their keen listening to their customers. Their Forum is terrific since posters interact directly with their people, and even their top execs post from time to time. They speak as OFFICIAL representatives of the company. They are very responsive to inputs and have an ongoing Wish List section on their Forum.

I have submitted my own extensive Wish List to them in writing, and some of my Wishes really came true - along with those from other posters. I have talked with their people at length - even before I bought my RV-12 - and they always give you the time. I once talked with Robert Hamilton - now the President - for maybe an hour on my thoughts about the six pack. Now it's here - I don't know if my discussion had anything to do with it or not.

I have had occasion to use their warranty services with two SV displays and three ADAHRS - replacements come overnight with almost no paperwork requirements and zero hassle. Their Firmware updates are really incredible, with about 6 since I first installed my system, each with terrific new goodies.

I have been to their facility half a dozen times - they always have time for you - even drop-ins. I have even become close personal friends with some of their people.

I too worry as to whether Big G, the 800 lb Gorilla - is out to mash some of the smaller guys. I have some G equipment - I'm not as wired with them as some (most) people seem to be. Well, that's life - there are Ford guys and there are Chevy guys, MS guys and Apple guys - you know what I mean. I've had some issues with some of their gear and have had zero success drilling down into the fortress to actually write to, or talk with someone about anything. Dynon is a great little company with outstanding products and I hope they survive and prosper.

In my direct experience, they are the epitome of what a fine company is to deal with, on every level - a pleasure --- and no, I don't work for them!

Call that three cents worth.

Bob Bogash
N737G

Another Change in Skyview 10.0 worth noting

For IFR Pilots with either GTN's or GNS's Dynon has changed how the HSI works with regards to selecting Sources. Dynon lets the GPS select between Nav or GPS via the CDI Key.

For Example, before 10.0 I had 3 sources for my HSI..
1) Dynon GPS
2) GPS 1 (My GTN 650 GPS)
3) Nav (MY GTN Nav source)

Now I have two sources
1) Dynon GPS
2) GPS 1 or NAV Selectable via the CDI Key on the GPS.

The reason for the change is to make it more clear regarding the automatic switching that the GTN does from GPS to VLOC on ILS approaches. I haven't played with it in full, but do know that you need to now mess with the CDI button more during normal navigation to switch between sources.

Thx

I'm one of the two screen guys. The Garmin announcement initially really enticed me for that reason. I like Dynon the company and the amount of innovation I've see from them is outstanding.

I'll just add my second Dynon screen after the pink slip.

I'm holding out to learn about the Dynon switch panels and how they'll be incorporated into the panel layout. Hopefully they'll be vertical next to the panel and not in the center stack.

Oh and yes - they'll be touch screens.

Bob

Curious: If the needle is erratic on the tape display for VSI, does the six pack display in round style actually dampen the needle? Or is it just larger and therefore looks more steady.
When I did human factors (FAA specialists along for the rides) flight testing for first synthetic vision, we discovered that pilots would "attend" to the VSI needle on the panel without actually looking at it. Their brains were struggling for familiarity and would "cheat" if a backup gauge was anywhere nearby. Covering the instrument would prove the point, as the eye would dart around trying to figure out just how fast the plane was climbing. Vertical tapes take some hours to accommodate to... and probably inversely proportional to how many years you have used analog instruments. Especially if IFR rated...

Skyview V10 Review

Hello Bob,

Thank you for the excellent review of Skyview Version 10.

I checked out both the new Skyview and Garmin GX3 touch systems at Sun n Fun this week. I really like them both. At this time, I think these are the two finalists for my panel. It will be a hard choice to make when the time comes.

Like you, I'm a big fan of the Skyview's six-pack layout option. Maybe a stupid question, but I was wondering - if you run the synthetic vision behind the six-pack display configuration, will the tops of the terrain turn read should I be flying at too low of an altitude to warn me of a potential obstacle ahead? Otherwise it's just a pretty - and not very helpful - picture

(FYI - All of the images I have seen so far showing the six-pack/synthetic vision background look like what you've shown).

Thanks for the info!

I like the 6 pack option! Never having flown behind a glass panel, a more familiar cockpit environment has to be a safety plus, certainly while I'm in the early stages of flying my RV-12. Besides, I think dials and needles are quicker to interpret than numbers. I much prefer analogue watches to digital, and I don't seem to be alone there. The best thing is that the new Dynon software gives you a choice. Well done Dynon! What's the betting that Garmin will soon copy the idea.

flightlogic said:

Curious: If the needle is erratic on the tape display for VSI, does the six pack display in round style actually dampen the needle? Or is it just larger and therefore looks more steady.
When I did human factors (FAA specialists along for the rides) flight testing for

Click to expand...

The VSI needle on the Six Pack is "a little" jerky - I'll have to fly with it some more - but appears to me to be better damped than the tape.

If you look at the two right tapes - you'll see there is a lot going on. The Altimeter tape plus an Altitude Bug plus a Six Second trend indicator magenta bar that is expanding and contracting. (Also an MDA Bug if you're setting MDA.) The Altitude tape's problem - if you even want to call it a "problem", is that it only shows a small slice of the altitude spectrum, +/- 200 units - vs the analog dial which shows a full 1000 ft.

Immediately adjacent to the Altitude tape is the VSI tape. It has a Bug, plus a needle with the digital readout. Those numbers keep changing and are distracting for me. If you set up the screen with three displays, including the EMS, the VSI truncates further, and the digital display is now a readout on the top or bottom of the tape. The VSI is now just a thin sliver. When I flight trained with Mike Seager, I had to get rid of the EMS or Map screens - I couldn't use the VSI at all while truncated.

As mentioned earlier, that needle is too sensitive for my taste. To make level flight easier - in turns especially, I tried setting the VS Bug to Zero. Then I could center the needle on the Bug. I found that wouldn't work because as soon as you changed the Altitude Bug, the VS bug would immediately jump to your preset VS value (500 fpm is the default.) I frequently change the Altitude Bug, so I could never keep the VSI Bug centered at Zero. I could preset it in the Setup to Zero, but then I couldn't easily use the Autopilot to change altitudes, unless I changed both Altitude AND VSI every time I wanted to make an Altitude change.

Of all the EFIS tape advantages and drawbacks, I found the VSI problem to be the most nettlesome. I NEED the VSI to make good turns, because the seat of my old pants isn't good enough. I do a lot of airwork and practicing. All of this work is done in a very mountainous area. I strive to get a good sight picture so I can make medium and steep turns, at all speeds, without climbing or diving and without looking at the VSI. The mountains make it impossible to get a good sight picture because I can't put the spinner on the horizon for at least half the turn, because there is no horizon! So, I depend on glances at the VSI to help me maintain level flight during the turn. The jittering needle and numbers flashing back and forth, especially on the truncated three screen display setting, are not conducive to a "quick glance." The analog round dial VSI IS much more amenable to those quick glances. With the Altimeter, which seems to run very smoothly, right above the VSI, the combination allows a much quicker, much easier information acquisition process. YMMV.

The Airspeed indicator, I think, also benefits from reversion to the days of steam. Instead of a small slice, I get the whole picture. And, at a glance. Just like that analog wristwatch, I don't even have to read the numbers, just glance at the needle and your brain automatically integrates the information without any 1)read the number, 2) analyze what it says, 3) figure out its meaning. (Did you even notice how many clocks and watches don't even have any numbers on their faces - and yet you can tell the time quickly and with great precision.) Since this airplane (RV-12) likes 60 kts for an approach speed, it helps greatly that 60 kts is right at the 3 o'clock position. Just set the pointer horizontally at 3 o'clock and you're there. Don't read anything!!!

In one of my previous lives, I was the Flight Deck Engineering Manager for the development of the 757 and 767 airplanes. We were plowing new ground and developing EFIS concepts and symbology that now seem commonplace. I spent literally years of my life discussing and thrashing out all of this stuff, and making hundreds (thousands) of simulator flights in which all these things were tried out and tested and evaluated by engineers, test pilots, airline pilots, FAA pilots. So, none of this tape/digital/round dial/analog stuff is new to me. And it would take books to document all the give and take and decisions that were made. More space than this Forum.

I was always a fan of Analog, but those were the days of Pulsar digital watches, etc and all things digital. So, I lost a lot of my battles. But, I feel, won them in the end, as Boeing's flight decks evolved into using a lot more Analog stuff as time went by. You can see a lot of the evolution in Slyview, with the Round Dials. The mistake people made then was confusing Digital Electronics with Digital Readouts. Digital Electronics allows us the enormous flexibility to put any sort of display we want on an electronic screen. Digital readouts may look sexy, but in the end, I think the human brain responds better to analog displays. Or at least mine does.

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" Maybe a stupid question, but I was wondering - if you run the synthetic vision behind the six-pack display configuration, will the tops of the terrain turn read should I be flying at too low of an altitude to warn me of a potential obstacle ahead? Otherwise it's just a pretty - and not very helpful - picture

(FYI - All of the images I have seen so far showing the six-pack/synthetic vision background look like what you've shown)."

Answer:

I'm pretty sure the Syn Vis will show the high terrain behind the six-pack just as it does in the EFIS display mode. Next flight out, I'll point the ship at the mountains and take a screen shot to verify.

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When all is said and done, it will be different strokes for different folks. That is the REAL beauty of digital electronics. Want to change the green band on your oil temperature gauge? No problem! Want to change the flap speed on your Airspeed indicator? No problem! Don't send them in to the shop. Just reprogram them.

So it is with the Six Pack. Like the EFIS display with tapes and SynVis? No problem! Prefer steam gauges? No problem! What Dynon has given us is a system with ENORMOUS flexibility. As with the EMS screens - pick anything you want round, linear, vertical, horizontal, big, small - show them, don't show them, put 'em wherever you want. I don't know how you could possible beat this system. When I demo this to folks, I tell them it does everything but make my breakfast - and I'm only half kidding.

Bob Bogash
N737G

Jimbot said:

if you run the synthetic vision behind the six-pack display configuration, will the tops of the terrain turn read should I be flying at too low of an altitude to warn me of a potential obstacle ahead? Otherwise it's just a pretty - and not very helpful - picture

Click to expand...

It does not turn red, however it is still useful. You have the horizon line indicated on the PFD. If there is any synthetic terrain above that line...

The terrain does turn yellow and red on the map, however. Don't quote me, but I believe yellow is within 1000', red 500'. All normal caveats about terrain avoidance apply.

Jon nailed it.

Bob

I just updated my -10 to the new revision. The six pack looks great, but to tell the truth ...

I asked Dynon before ordering my system if they had a six pack. All my hours in power and gliders have been the old round gages and I was worried about transitioning in a brand new aircraft. I had tried to land a -12 with a Skyview from the copilot seat and turned it back over to the pilot on downwind because I couldn't really find the ASI or rate of climb.

Spent a couple of hours just before the first flight sitting behind the screens mentally flying, playing with the buttons. Turned out to be no big deal! Felt almost completely comfortable by the second flight. Now I don't even think about it, just use it

Interesting that the screens you show have been standard issue on AFS for 4-5 years. Obviously there is a fair degree of information exchange occurring between them since AFS was acquired which is good for both companies.

In the early days Dynon traded on being the cheapest. Those days are gone and they are now delivering a quality product.

If only they could deliver the software for their hardware a little faster. For some it doesn't matter as building takes time, but for others it can be a little frustrating to not quite have everything you need.

AFS is not available - at least to U.S. customers who are building as an E-LSA.

As we must "build per Plan", the Dynon product was selected by Vans and thus our only choice. A GREAT choice, IMHO.

I'm amazed that you don't feel they deliver their software "fast enough." I have been updating the Firmware non-stop since I first fired up - the latest update was the longest wait, and it certainly was worth it.

The EFIS marketplace seems, to me, to have been overcrowded for some time now - considering the market size. Nevertheless, the players want and need to differentiate themselves from their competitors. The homogenization may well occur in time, but that will be a loss for the user base, as the innovation will dry up. As it has in so many other technology areas, which have devolved into "commodity" products.

I relish the current dynamic situation.

Bob Bogash
N737G

NASA515 said:

I'm amazed that you don't feel they deliver their software "fast enough." I have been updating the Firmware non-stop since I first fired up - the latest update was the longest wait, and it certainly was worth it.

Click to expand...

I agree. The updates seem reasonably paced, especially considering the regression testing that they must surely be doing to ensure that new features aren't causing unintended issues with older code.

There is a fundamental rule in software development: you can have it fast, cheap, or good, and you only get to pick two of those.

This update from 7.1 to 10 did not work out so well for me. Two issues that I had to deal with on a one hour flight after the update were:

- Audible "Caution" warning from the SkyView girl every 10 seconds or so when the autopilot was engaged. However, I could not determine what the lady was cautioning me about as everything worked as it should. Never had that issue with 7.1
- I noticed a lot of ghost ADS-B warnings when close to a mountain (we have a few here in Southern Arizona). The first one made my heart stop for a second as a collision warning was issued out of the blue with a target right on my altitude and at my location. I immediately started evasive maneuvers but couldn't see a threat although it followed me around on the map. Magically it disappeared when I got more distance to the mountains and reappeared when approaching them again. I only experienced something like that once with 7.1 before. With 10 it was easily repeatable very unnerving). Maybe a coincidence caused by the radar station processing an echo from the mountain...

The 6-pack was something I dearly wanted before starting flying in the -12. I thought it was hard for me to adapt but turned out to be a piece o' cake. It's nicely done though the 6-pack gets pretty small with all 3 screens turned on at the same time.

MacPara said:

This update from 7.1 to 10 did not work out so well for me. Two issues that I had to deal with on a one hour flight after the update were:

- Audible "Caution" warning from the SkyView girl every 10 seconds or so when the autopilot was engaged. However, I could not determine what the lady was cautioning me about as everything worked as it should. Never had that issue with 7.1
- I noticed a lot of ghost ADS-B warnings when close to a mountain (we have a few here in Southern Arizona). The first one made my heart stop for a second as a collision warning was issued out of the blue with a target right on my altitude and at my location. I immediately started evasive maneuvers but couldn't see a threat although it followed me around on the map. Magically it disappeared when I got more distance to the mountains and reappeared when approaching them again. I only experienced something like that once with 7.1 before. With 10 it was easily repeatable very unnerving). Maybe a coincidence caused by the radar station processing an echo from the mountain...

The 6-pack was something I dearly wanted before starting flying in the -12. I thought it was hard for me to adapt but turned out to be a piece o' cake. It's nicely done though the 6-pack gets pretty small with all 3 screens turned on at the same time.

Click to expand...

I wonder if you are seeing an echo of yourself being transmitted back to the ads-b due to delays or like you said issues with mountain reflectivity?

Reminds me of the early TCAS units - they had similar issues - it seemed like someone was following you or on top of you and it was just that unit having issues processing the transponder data in space and time I think.

Black and white screens.

Since I added version 10 I get a black screen. Pushing buttons 1, 2, and 5 results in a white screen. Pushing the buttons again results in a normal screen. Dynon recognizes the problem and will release version 10.1 soon to correct.

How many out there have this problem?

Doug Dahl