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iPad in-flight

B

Barnstormer

Member
I'm trying to determine if the iPad 3G model can show aircraft position and movement on the map display in-flight with any of apps available. I understand its value as a preflight tool but am still a little unsure of in-flight abilities. Thanks for your many learned inputs.

Pat
RV6 about to be airborne again
 
foreflight is one program that will do what you are looking for. You will need to pay a subscription for the maps. After the system will work very well if you down load the required maps and proceedures before leaving home.
 
flickroll said:
I use the Foreflight app but am unable to get inflight position. Any ideas on how to fix this? Thanks
Click to expand...

Which model of iPad?

Mine works fine for GPS position in both the car and the airplane.

The 3G models have a built-in GPS which appears to work much better than the one in my 3GS iPhone. You don't have to have the 3G activated, but you do need the upgraded model.

The Wi-Fi only iPad doesn't have GPS, so can't find position in flight. If you "jailbreak" it I understand you can use a bluetooth GPS (I have no experience with this)
 
flyeyes said:
Which model of iPad?

Mine works fine for GPS position in both the car and the airplane.

The 3G models have a built-in GPS which appears to work much better than the one in my 3GS iPhone. You don't have to have the 3G activated, but you do need the upgraded model.

The Wi-Fi only iPad doesn't have GPS, so can't find position in flight. If you "jailbreak" it I understand you can use a bluetooth GPS (I have no experience with this)
Click to expand...

I have the 3G version and have never gotten an inflight position. What settings are you using?
 
flickroll said:
I have the 3G version and have never gotten an inflight position. What settings are you using?
Click to expand...

Make sure you are not in "airplane" mode, which shuts off the GPS.

Normally I leave everything in the default settings. I sometimes turn off WIFI to save the battery, but battery life is so good I rarely bother.

I have bluetooth "off"

Cellular data and data roaming are both "off" although i don't think this is necessary.

Maybe you could try resetting it, and/or loading any software updates from Apple.

Mine gets a fix almost immediately, even inside the house, and works better than the handheld garmin in the car or our Cirrus (which has a metal mesh embedded in the roof for lightning protection).
 
Foreflight

Thanks guys,
I'm familiar with Foreflight. Do the chart downloads cost above the subscription for the program?
Pat
 
iPad in Flight

Skycharts Pro also provides GPS position tracking and charts. It is is only $19.99 and offers less functionality than either WingX or Foreflight, but it does have charts, position, METAR, TAF and course planning. The developer has been quite active at continually improving the application - a real deal in my mind. It also works on your iPhone if you have one.

As far as getting a fix - does it work for you on the ground? I have had no problems in flight as long as I had a GPS fix while not moving at 160 knots! (both iPhone and iPad).

N144SH
 
Skycharts Pro works well for in-flight position on my ipad 3G and is a bargain at $20 with no additional charge for downloading/updating the sectional charts. Ive been told that Foreflight offers a 30-day free trial, so no loss in trying that as well.

erich
 
iPad in flight

i just got back from a fairly long x-country using the iPad with Skycharts Pro. It archives the IFR/VFR maps and all Approaches. I use GPS only without 3G and it tracks great, very easy for me to use. The only problem I can identify is with the iPad itself. As you get much in the 10K and higher altitude range, the pressure sensitive touchpad gets less responsive. You have to really tap quite hard to input, but other than that, all was good. It seems to replace the paper charts very nicely. No experience with the Foreflight app.

John Koonce
N 78 MU
RV 10
 
Anyone know if you can use the GPS signal from an iPhone to feed a WiFi only iPad? Maybe via Bluetooth?
 
Tomasz said:
Nope. This functionality is slotted for iPhone 6
Click to expand...

Seriously though..

There seems to only be one available (the TomTom dock http://store.apple.com/us/product/TY168LL/A ), but we should be seeing some more external, plug-in GPS accessories on the market. The TomTom dock gives the iPod touch GPS capability, but currently there's no similar solution for the iPad.

Here's a good rundown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cADjYg9SfFU

They recommend a 3G-WiFi bridge with GPS as a possible solution, but it's probably not much of a solution for airborne applications.

I guess my advice for current iPad WiFi owners is "wait and see". Otherwise, spend the extra $130 and get a 3G iPad :)
 
Ipad at above 10,000'

Masterplumber said:
As you get much in the 10K and higher altitude range, the pressure sensitive touchpad gets less responsive. You have to really tap quite hard to input, but other than that, all was good.
Click to expand...

Anyone else used the ipad at altitude?
 
Bluetooth gps?

Will the ipad work with a bluetooth GPS, I have the Garmin 10X that I used to use with my WM phone. I also have a verizon mifi which would connect via wifi and give the 3G functionality but unfortunately verizon has disabled the mifi internal gps functionality.
Which size of ipad are most of you buying for the flight capability?
 
Wife and I flew to NC last week to a private strip. The identifier was not recognized by our G1000 airport directory, but it was available in ForeFlight on our iPad. We simply flew the little magenta airplane icon towards the little magenta dot, with the help of a couple roads on the ForeFlight VFR chart, and it took us right to it.

iPad + ForeFlight = V. Cool... IMHO

Without the iPad, the moving map of ForeFlight, and the extensive Airport listings of ForeFlight, we would have gone to a different airport and our friends on the ground would have had an extra 30 min. to drive to pick us up.
 
monsoon said:
Wife and I flew to NC last week to a private strip. The identifier was not recognized by our G1000 airport directory, but it was available in ForeFlight on our iPad. We simply flew the little magenta airplane icon towards the little magenta dot, with the help of a couple roads on the ForeFlight VFR chart, and it took us right to it.

iPad + ForeFlight = V. Cool... IMHO

Without the iPad, the moving map of ForeFlight, and the extensive Airport listings of ForeFlight, we would have gone to a different airport and our friends on the ground would have had an extra 30 min. to drive to pick us up.
Click to expand...

Skycharts Pro is just as cool and only costs $19.99/year.
 
Edit - never mind, it was answered earlier in the thread.

What is sunlight visibility like?
 
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uk_figs said:
Which size of ipad are most of you buying for the flight capability?
Click to expand...

The great thing about iTunes is that you can manage memory. For that reason I bought the 16 GB iPad 3G. No issues. I have Foreflight and Skycharts Pro loaded with the maps cached for the western US.

Movies take a lot of memory, so I don't have any loaded. But books do not.
 
breister said:
Is that just for the app, or does it include all U.S. charts and approaches?
Click to expand...

Skycharts includes both. But you have to save them to your iPad. Same
goes for Foreflight.

I like Skycharts for the TCA charts. The one advanage of Skycharts is you can double tap the airport on the chart for info. On Foreflight, you must go to a different tab and them search for the airport unless you have it as a favorite. But other than the TCA charts, I prefer Foreflight overall. The maps
work the same, Foreflight is easier to cache and then discard maps (IMHO)
and the airport info is more like the little Brown books.

I have both. The price of Skycharts is less than the 5 TCA charts I buy
for the west coast (LA, San Diego, SF, Las Vegas and PHX) so it is worth
it for me.
 
On the Foreflight app, I really hate not having the side tabs of the map charts for the terminal area charts. They usually have so much specialized info on the side tabs that you are otherwise missing.
 
GPS with no 3G subscription

As a follow up to my previous question it appears you cannot use an external bluetooth GPS with the ipad unless you jailbreak the device and add the required BT profiles. It does appear however that the ipad +3G GPS does work even if the 3G (and the wifi) is turned off so I could use my Verizon MiFi in wifi mode to connect to the Verizon 3G network for internet access and downloads and get the GPS functionality with Foreflight and the other aviation apps that I have on the iPhone without having to pay for yet another data subscription.
Not as elegant as using the built in 3G but certainly workable.
 
uk_figs said:
As a follow up to my previous question it appears you cannot use an external bluetooth GPS with the ipad unless you jailbreak the device and add the required BT profiles. It does appear however that the ipad +3G GPS does work even if the 3G (and the wifi) is turned off so I could use my Verizon MiFi in wifi mode to connect to the Verizon 3G network for internet access and downloads and get the GPS functionality with Foreflight and the other aviation apps that I have on the iPhone without having to pay for yet another data subscription.
Not as elegant as using the built in 3G but certainly workable.
Click to expand...

Another option and much cheaper is to use your Iphone (if you have one) to tether instead of Verizon MiFi. It is a farily simple operation, it cost only a one time charge of $20 for the app (MyWi) and that turns your iphone as a wireless device. It is very slick and works great.
 
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Jailbroken?

Does that app require a jailbroken iphone?
Problem I have with the AT&T iPhone tether is that you give up the unlimited data plan when you switch to tethering and are moved to the new tiered pricing and you are still on AT&T network which in my experience has limited 3G outside of major towns and cities and even the edge coverage seems to suffer from unstable performance. I would be at my lake place with 2 bars on edge and get absolutely glacial internet performance.
My experience so far with the mifi and Verizon has been excellent wherever I have been and as we can fly the RV anywhere (small fields with limited internet access) I should have good coverage one way or another for any of my devices.
I found a hack on the web to replace the AT&T 3G card in the ipad with the guts of the verizon mifi but I am not ready for that kind of effort.
 
uk_figs said:
As a follow up to my previous question it appears you cannot use an external bluetooth GPS with the ipad unless you jailbreak the device and add the required BT profiles. It does appear however that the ipad +3G GPS does work even if the 3G (and the wifi) is turned off so I could use my Verizon MiFi in wifi mode to connect to the Verizon 3G network for internet access and downloads and get the GPS functionality with Foreflight and the other aviation apps that I have on the iPhone without having to pay for yet another data subscription.
Not as elegant as using the built in 3G but certainly workable.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct. Once you have downloaded the charts from the internet, all you need to do is go fly...the GPS on the IPad will take over. You do need a 3g IPad but you are correct again that is does not have to be turned on. The big advantage of SkyChartsPro to me is that its $20/year...Foreflight higher.
 
iPad in flight

I recently tried using my 16 gb iPad 3G in flight in our airliner cockpit.
As we taxied out, I had it sitting beside me on top of my flight case, with the VFR sectional displayed and zoomed to the terminal area level at CVG.
It showed 5 meter accuracy, and showed us paralleling the runway as we taxied on the parallel taxiway. After takeoff it was displaying our GS, track and GPS altitude very accurately until about 8000 ft. Then it basically quit. It found itself once more at about FL 180 briefly, then quit for good.
I bought the 3G version specifically for what I thought would be gps capability.
It appears to me that you still need cellular coverage to make the agps work.
Maybe it will work better in the RV8 at lower altitudes.
 
breister said:
...What is sunlight visibility like?
Click to expand...
DSC06461.jpg


From this thread

Apparently it doesn't bother a lot of people but it was too frustrating for me. On the other hand I have no problem with the Dynon D10A or Garmin 496.

In my testing in an RV-6 GPS was solid all the time.
 
jthocker said:
It appears to me that you still need cellular coverage to make the agps work. Maybe it will work better in the RV8 at lower altitudes.
Click to expand...

Jon I have had similar results with my iPad in my RV-8. On the ground and at low altitudes (if within cell coverage) the GPS works great. Higher up I never have had it work. It is somewhat of a disappointment...I have other moving maps in the aircraft so it's not essential, but it would be nice to have this work just in case it is needed.
 
Some Data

Thanks to the folks who responded to my iPad at altitude questions. I went ahead and bought one and have flown two 250NM segments at 12,500 and 13,500 with no problems. (using Foreflight software)

The GPS does not acquire satellites quickly if you pull the ipad out and turn it on while you are already moving. I was able to get the GPS working in flight by setting the iPad on the glareshield and waiting. It took 5 or so minutes up there to acquire a signal. Once locked on it did not loose the signal for the duration of either flight.

It seemed to work better to use the built in map application to get the GPS to acquire a signal and subsequently to open up Foreflight after the GPS is navigating. Note that there will be no background with the map application since there is no WiFi or 3G at altitude, only the little blue dot.

As far as using it in an airline cockpit....GPS units do not receive well within the heated windows found there.
 
Chuck, I agree about the airline cockpit and the heated windows. From past experience I wasn't expecting much and am not too disappointed about that. I am encouraged about your experience though. I'm looking forward to trying it in the other "8"' now.
 
For another point of reference, I tried my Garmin 496 in the cockpit of an Airbus from Denver to LAX. No signal, AT ALL. Opened the side window after parking in LA and had a signal within 30 seconds. I don't know if it's the heated windows or some other coating or UV or RF filter or whatever, but it really doesn't allow GPS signals.

It's too bad because I'd love to have some of the information available in an iPad or even the 496. We made an emergency landing in KRKS last weekend and I would have loved to have had some of the AOPA-type info.

Rod

jthocker said:
Chuck, I agree about the airline cockpit and the heated windows. From past experience I wasn't expecting much and am not too disappointed about that. I am encouraged about your experience though. I'm looking forward to trying it in the other "8"' now.
Click to expand...
 
Note that there will be no background with the map application since there is no WiFi or 3G at altitude, only the little blue dot.
Click to expand...

Do you have a paid subscription and if so, have you made sure to download the VFR and IFR charts? You should be able to see the "blue dot" superimposed over the chart of your choice while in flight. If you don't download the charts ahead of time all you will get is the blue dot after you lose wifi and 3G coverage.
 
"It's too bad because I'd love to have some of the information available in an iPad or even the 496. We made an emergency landing in KRKS last weekend and I would have loved to have had some of the AOPA-type info."

Rod
I know the Garmin 296 will work in cockpit of A340 in flight and on ground. Terry Lutz, who visits this site, has used one and found it to work well.
PM me if you need more info.
John
 
iPad on the airlines

A few more quick data points about the iPad on a commercial flight:

1) I have made several attempts to use the iPad in the passenger cabin of an airliner with no success in acquiring a gps fix. Every other handheld gps device I have ever tried in an airline cabin has worked fine (496, tomtom, GpsIII Pilot, etc.). By the way, in the post 911 era, it's a good idea to ask permission before doing this.

2) using Delta's GoGo inflight internet access, the map shows our position at Atlanta no matter what part of the country I an flying over. Given that the gps is unable to acquire a fix, this should come as no surprise.

Too bad pilots are such a small segment of the iPad market. This thing could be a really useful tool in the cockpit if the gps was up to modern standards. For now, I'll let my wife use the iPad for watching movies in the plane. I'll stick with the 430 and 496 for moving maps, and the kindle for showing approach plates, which I think it does better, anyway.
 
For those that are having problems acquiring GPS position in the air with the iPad, note that you are running into the Achilles heel of assisted GPS (A-GPS)--at least for aviation.

A-GPS allows the iPad to very quickly acquire its position and lock on to the GPS satellites using 3G or Wi-Fi geo-location services. In addition to quicker acquisition of the GPS satellites, it also eliminates the need for any fancy algorithm to determine its initial position. Think how long it takes the GNS-430 or an aviation handheld to acquire the GPS satellites. After the initial position is found, and the iPad locks on to the GPS satellites, the actual GPS signals are then used for position.

When you go for a flight you probably do not have any application running that is using the GPS. When you then fire up an application that tries to use the GPS, since you are in the air and can't lock on to any cell phone towers, A-GPS can't get its initial position and can't determine what GPS satellites to look for. It tries for a while and then gives up. Also note that if no application require position services, the GPS engine shuts down.

On your next flight try this; while on the ground, start any application that utilizes the iPad GPS engine (Foreflight, Maps, etc) and leave it running. As long as the GPS engine continues to be active, you will not lose position. I noticed this on my first flight with the iPad when at altitude I fired it up and could not get a position. Since I use the iPad primarily for charts in the air, this was not an issue but since then, I make sure to activate Foreflight while on the ground. Since then, I have had no issues getting position from the iPad.
 
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iPad

First flights with iPad the last two days, KMWC-3D2 and return, max altitude 4500 ft. Locked on position rapidly if using maps and cellular data before TO. Didn't lock position on return flight until cellular data turned on, even though no 3G. GS accurate on trip up, totally off on return. Our GS was about 148 and iPad indicated anything from 45 to 282 kts. Alignment of the airplane symbol with track was excellent and made heading control easy for casual navigation. Ability to quickly and easily get METARs before TO and access charts in the air is wonderful. Initial impression is that it's a nice adjunct to navigation and terrific for charts (and weather on ground only). I don't think it's remotely adequate as sole source for IFR navigation. YMMV!
 
Ipad at 18k

chuckwn said:
Thanks to the folks who responded to my iPad at altitude questions. I went ahead and bought one and have flown two 250NM segments at 12,500 and 13,500 with no problems. (using Foreflight software)

.
Click to expand...
I am wondering what happens to the iPad up at 17.5k or the occasional density altitude of 20k+ in the summer. Temperature would not be a problem up there. If internal cooling is the issue, the GPS and WiFi could be turned off to help.
I was ready to go shopping when I caught the 10k limit in the spec.
 
Ipad GPS

Flew a bit with the Ipad. Wasn't very accurate on the GPS functions. Just got an external plug in GPS from Bad ELF.com. ($100.00) No jailbreaking required, approved by Apple. The GPS unit has a mini USP plug so you can run a cord to feed ships power to tablet in flight (GPS is power hungry). I'll fly it over the weekend and report back.

Wastah
 
I used my IPAD (GS without data subscription) on my last flight from CA to Atlanta and back and it worked without any issues. GPS locked each time in a matter of seconds and GS was always accurate as the GS reported on my 430. Track was accurate but nothing that I would want to use as a sole source for IFR of course. The altitude was often off but the fact that I was checking against my altimeter which is based on barometric pressure, I was not surprised to see that. I flew the majority of the way at 14K and there was never any issues with GPS.
As for the heat, it is rather sensitive and I have had it shut down in the past. I found it more sensitive when sitting on the ground and before taking off. If you take care to keep it cool while on the ground, typically does not get hot enough to shut down while enroute. Of course the maps and charts are very nice and easily accessible in any format one chooses to. And the new version that shows fuel prices are just so great. It makes long trips so much easier to plan.
The battery seems to last around 5-6 hours with the GPS but I had it connected to the external power (cigarette lighter) and there was no issue there during my long flight back.
 
Bavafa said:
The altitude was often off but the fact that I was checking against my altimeter which is based on barometric pressure, I was not surprised to see that. I flew the majority of the way at 14K and there was never any issues with GPS.
Click to expand...

There will be times with my Garmin 696, XM weather, and the GPS's panel page, that I'll set the latest altimeter setting from XM weather ........and the panel page's GPS driven altimeter & the airplanes altimeter (steam gauge) will exactly follow each other. These days with WAAS, I figure the GPS version is probably the most accurate..........more of the time.

L.Adamson
 
ours ok @ fl250

We use an ipad with 3g on every flight in the mid 20s. Never had a problem unless we lay in on the floor. GPS doesn't pick up there, but on our lap or in hands is wonderful. We are going to get a second one and go totally paperless in the cockpit. GPS is usually within 5M. GS and altitude is right on. We are using Foreflight and are very happy. YMMV.
 
ipad

I am surprised that your GPS accuracy is not better than 5 miles. I am running an ipad with foreflight, and the accuracy is usually 5 to 10 meters. On the sectional chart it seems to be dead on, the best I can tell from looking out the window. I love everything about this combination.
 
Kent is correct

5M shows up on the screen as 5 meters. Sorry for the delay in response. I was using my ipad @ FL250!! :D

Seriously.
 
Nexrad weather on Ipad?

I think I am the last person on Earth that has never owned an Apple product, so please excuse my ignorance.

Are there any apps for the Ipad that update Nexrad, Metars, Tafs, etc while in flight like XM weather? I believe that Skycharts, Foreflight etc, only allow you to download current weather before departure. I would assume you would need the 3G model....

Thanks in advance!

Jon D.
 
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