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A friendly reminder on ADS-B install

ADS-B Out

I think AOPA and others who supported this ADS-B out requirement for small GA airplanes have not done us a service. What's the benefit for the small GA airplane owner? What's the problem driving this need?

I was at Aviation Show Saturday and I asked ATC from tower, Center/Appr/Depr if there was a benefit to them. They said, "NO" quickly without hesitation. I also asked them if they can tell if we are using ADS-B out and they said, "NO" but we can push another button and check. I asked them what's the consequences after Dec 31, 2019 if we fly within the 30 mile vail without it? They said, "we don't know. I guess someone will figure that out later." They said, "perhaps we will tell you to call a 1-800 number."

Pilots flying production airplanes like C-172 and PA28's will pay $5,000 on a $35,000 airplane. Not worth it. One thing that would lower the cost is if we could use non-WAAS gps receivers, like the older Garmin 430's. Why isn't that good enough for small GA airplanes? What problem are they solving?

I attended the AOPA conference last year and they are really pushing this. To me they are pushing against many of their members.
 
Why do we need a "certified" nav source when flying VFR? Aren't we see and avoid, even with ADS-B?

If that is true, we should be able to use a handheld GPS as our position source.

If you are going to fly IFR, then, and only then, should you have to pay up for a certified GPS source.

That would significantly reduce the cost for most of the fleet that will never fly IFR.
 
It's to ID everything in the sky for the sake of "safety"......;)

Then, other restrictions and fees can easily be applied later......:mad:
 
You don't have to

Why do we need a "certified" nav source when flying VFR? Aren't we see and avoid, even with ADS-B?

You don't have to.
You just will not be able to fly legally, in certain areas come 2020 that you now can fly in.

I have it and enjoy it!
 
According to the March-April 2017 FAA Safety publication:

"As of December 2016, just over 18-percent of the United States GA fleet is ADS-B equipped.

Chris

So does anyone know what fraction of GA aircraft are based in "rule" airspace? Those based outside of mandatory ADSB airspace may just be taking a wait and see approach.
 
No hurry

This (the FAA reminder, not the OP) seems comparable to my wife reminding me that "Christmas is only 10 months away". A lot can change between now and then.

Put me firmly in the "not in a rush" camp. If you think the services provided by having ADSB-IN are worth the current costs, by all means upgrade.

But we have almost THREE years to make the switch. That's a LONG time. Even if prices don't drop drastically, they won't go up, and will most likely drop a fair amount. I don't need an appointment with a certified shop to get it installed, so won't have to worry about a backlog in 2019.

I'm thankful for the early adopters, and have been one myself in other areas, but the cost/benefit analysis doesn't do it for me right now. I don't see much upside to installing early.

Chris
 
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This (the FAA reminder, not the OP) seems comparable to my wife reminding me that "Christmas is only 10 months away". A lot can change between now and then.

Put me firmly in the "not in a rush" camp. If you think the services provided by having ADSB-IN are worth the current costs, by all means upgrade.

But we have almost THREE years to make the switch. That's a LONG time. Even if prices don't drop drastically, they won't go up, and will most likely drop a fair amount. I don't need an appointment with a certified shop to get it installed, so won't have to worry about a backlog in 2019.

I'm thankful for the early adopters, and have been one myself in other areas, but the cost/benefit analysis doesn't do it for me right now. I don't see much upside to installing early.

Chris

A great deal of the cost/benefit analysis comes in with what stage of the build the airplane is in. Converting an existing airplane can obviously be problematic. New builds, such as the way I built mine with full Dynon Skyview equipment, enjoy the advantage of a small increase in cost for full In/Out capability. For me the advantage of having the traffic and weather on the screen was well worth the incremental investment during the initial build. A refurb is obviously a different calculation.
 
So does anyone know what fraction of GA aircraft are based in "rule" airspace? Those based outside of mandatory ADSB airspace may just be taking a wait and see approach.

I do, so for me that is the 100% that counts. :D

If it were not for that, I might have been in the camp that gets the cheapest inbound data (stratux?) and waits until the last minute on outbound realizing that it might affect flight planning (what airports I can go to) after 2020.
 
Checklist

1. No problem waiting until the last moment.
2. You might never need it depending on the airspace you fly in.
3. It's not as expensive as you think. Especially with the rebate and considering we're dealing with experimentals.
4. I'm seeing more traffic (both on the screen and out the window) than before the install.
5. From a safety perspective (traffic and weather), ADSB in/out is a good investment.
6. As long as you have your transponder on, my electronic copilot will help me see and avoid you.
 
rebates status?

Does anyone know, or know where/how to find out, what percentage of the 20,000 rebates have been reserved?
 
You don't have to.
You just will not be able to fly legally, in certain areas come 2020 that you now can fly in.

I have it and enjoy it!
^^^ I completely agree ^^^

You reap the benefits/consequences of your decision, I reap the benefits/consequences of mine.

:cool:
 
Someone throw this thread a lifeline before it gets locked.

I installed ADSB out/in prior to Osh 2016. Glad I did.
 
The benefits for sport flying is not as great as realized by other users. But, it allows a reduction of IFR enroute separation requirements from 5 miles to 3 miles, provides a much higher update rate than radar so ATC tracking is more accurate, greatly increases the precision of aircraft position for ATC purposes, and eliminates the limitations of radar coverage. For UAT users, it provides real time traffic, weather and NOTAMs information.

It may not be great, but it's not that bad.
 
Ads-b install👍

As a Canadian flying regularly in Florida , decided to install. Chose ESG since I have a Stratus2. No rebate for me. I like having it for traffic. No longer worry about 2020 mandate.
 
The benefits for sport flying is not as great as realized by other users. But, it allows a reduction of IFR enroute separation requirements from 5 miles to 3 miles, provides a much higher update rate than radar so ATC tracking is more accurate, greatly increases the precision of aircraft position for ATC purposes, and eliminates the limitations of radar coverage. For UAT users, it provides real time traffic, weather and NOTAMs information.

It may not be great, but it's not that bad.

All I do is "sport flying," and I use the benefits of the ADS-B system every time I fly - but this is near busy, heavily controlled / policed airspace in a megalopolis that has radar coverage. It will only gets better when more people equip, particularly in areas outside of radar coverage.
 
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I installed ADSB out/in prior to Osh 2016. Glad I did.

After flying into Osh 2016 with ADS-B out/in, I'm not sure whether I liked seeing all those bees buzzing the nest or if it just scared me.

Kind of like the old joke about a forced, off-field landing at night: When you get close to the ground, turn on your landing lights. If you don't like what you see, turn them back off.
 
Basically ADS-B is pushing the cost of collision avoidance equipment off the gummint's shoulders and onto ours.

They can close down costly radar facilities and watch all our little blips move across the screen like they enjoy at a lower cost to them.

:)

Me? I am waiting until I really need it and see what the deal is then. I am also looking into my crystal ball now and guessing that the deadline will be extended... just my guess!

:cool: CJ
 
It's the berries. For all my cross country traveling, and even on local flights, it is another great tool in the box. I love it and am glad I went ahead and did it early.
 
Basically ADS-B is pushing the cost of collision avoidance equipment off the gummint's shoulders and onto ours.

They can close down costly radar facilities and watch all our little blips move across the screen like they enjoy at a lower cost to them.

:)

Me? I am waiting until I really need it and see what the deal is then. I am also looking into my crystal ball now and guessing that the deadline will be extended... just my guess!

:cool: CJ

Maybe someone can clear up the question as to how they can shut down primary radar if in fact that is what would be used to identify unfriendly incoming aircraft. If the unfriendlies don't comply with ADS-B how will the guvmint know who is who?

Cheers, Hans
 
Maybe someone can clear up the question as to how they can shut down primary radar if in fact that is what would be used to identify unfriendly incoming aircraft. If the unfriendlies don't comply with ADS-B how will the guvmint know who is who?

Cheers, Hans
FWIW: There are two different primary radar(s) in the US. The one pilots like us interact the most are the approach radar(s). These normally have a range of about 50Nm, are owned, funded and maintained by the FAA.

The second ones are the long range surveillance radars. These have a normal range of about 200NM, are owned and funded by the DOD. They are typically around the perimeter of the US (and Canada) with some spread out within the US. The radar data is shared between NORAD and the different FAA centers. The FAA maintains these radars with funds received from the DOD.

So when people say the FAA will "eliminate" radars, they are probably talking about the short range approach radars. There is no talk, nor has there ever been talk about eliminating the DOD owned and funded long range surveillance radars. Most are being upgraded even as we speak. The long range surveillance radars are the ones looking out for the "unfriendly incoming aircraft" not the short range approach radars. Typical case of apples and oranges.

:cool:
 
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How many ADS-B installations have been rejected by the FAA, leaving their installer/owners with no choice but to rip it out and switch to a new approved one?
The FAA has reserved the right to change the requirement, and they have changed the requirement. Consider Navworx.
That is not a cheerful thought.
 
This collision would not have happened if the two planes involved would have had ADS-B, Young Eagle Killed

That's conjecture - there's nothing to suggest that ADS-B would have prevented that accident. The best way I can explain how well the TIS-B portion of ADS-B in works is this: "90% of the time, it works every time!"
 
Why do we need a "certified" nav source when flying VFR? Aren't we see and avoid, even with ADS-B?

If that is true, we should be able to use a handheld GPS as our position source.

If you are going to fly IFR, then, and only then, should you have to pay up for a certified GPS source.

That would significantly reduce the cost for most of the fleet that will never fly IFR.

The GPS source associated with ADS-B has nothing to do with VFR or IFR. ADS-B requires an installed WAAS GPS source. This is because on a portable, you have to input your aircraft?s N-number correctly. If you?re off by just one digit, then the ID in your flight plan won?t match up with the ID transmitted by your portable unit. This applies to VFR flight as well. A high number of call sign mismatch incidents happen for this very reason. Especially when portable units are moved from aircraft to aircraft.

To answer your question on "certified" equipment, you do not need to install certified equipment on experimental type certificated aircraft but the equipment must meet the performance requirements of Technical Standard
Order (TSO)-C166b or TSO-C154c for ADS-B and the associated TSO for GPS to be in compliance with 14 CFR 91.225/7.
 
EAA Webinar Reminder

Tonight at 7pm CST " Equipping for ADS-B 2020 - One Pilot's Odyssey"
 
I don't think the prices will go down at all from now on, if anything they may creep back up. Supply vs. demand. The last couple of years, the demand was not there, the prices were a bit high and the looming deadline was still far off.

Now that we're 33 months away from a bunch of airplanes being grounded overnight, the demand is increasing. The prices won't have to go down because the demand will only increase. If I had the smarts required, I would rent a hangar, open my own avionics shop and do nothing but ADS-B installs for the next three years then close up shop.

My personal beef with the whole process is for the requirement to still equip and maintain a Mode C transponder when wanting to fly in controlled airspace or anywhere else it is required.

What am I gaining by having two separate sources of radar identification?? Mode C will now be the backup in case the ADS-B system goes down??

Shouldn't we have the option to just not carry Mode C and not fly into non ADS-B equipped airspace??
 
I don't think the prices will go down at all from now on, if anything they may creep back up. Supply vs. demand. The last couple of years, the demand was not there, the prices were a bit high and the looming deadline was still far off.

I'm not so sure. Just because demand will go up doesn't mean that supply (and new market entrants / competition) won't go up even more. There is no inherent scarcity in ADS-B transmitters like there is in some commodities like oil - ramping up production is certainly not hard, and as more companies have time to meet the TSO and add competitors to the market, I doubt prices will rise. Especially in the EAB arena where we may have the option to install units that meet the standard without being certified.

Demand for large screen TV's has skyrocketed over the last 5 years, and yet prices have plummeted. (Actually demand went up because prices fell, but goes to show that both can happen together).

Where I CAN see increased prices is in the installation shops as the deadline approaches. There IS a limited amount of labor supply. Good thing I can do my own :)

Now, I could certainly be wrong (I have a scrap heap of parts that proves it's happened before), and if I were building my panel today, I'd probably save myself later trouble and install ADSB-OUT now. But for right now, I have the benefits of ADS-B weather, and some traffic.

There may be an infinitesimal chance that I collide with a plane in mid-air that I would have been notified of with full ADSB-Out, but even being notified of a target doesn't mean you won't hit it. The current price tag of reducing this risk just doesn't do it for me. Not when I could do a year's worth of flying, or install an autopilot, for the same cost.

Chris

PS - I agree that even if not the stated intention, having every airplane in the sky identified will be way too sweet of a revenue stream for the tax man to pass up. It's only a matter of time. There won't be much sympathy for us "rich" airplane owners.
 
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Shouldn't we have the option to just not carry Mode C and not fly into non ADS-B equipped airspace??

First, that would be a pretty confining limitation, as rule airspace is a small percentage of geographical US, not including above 10K, which you can't easily get to without flying through non-rule airspace. Further, I don't see radar going away for a long time, even in rule airspace. How would ATC identify aircraft with inoperative equipment or aircraft not equipped with ADSB? The terminal-based rule airspace is flooded with commercial, passenger carrying traffic and the liability it carries. ATC cannot realistically rely solely upon rule compliance in order to provide traffic separation. While ADS-b will be the primary means of separation, I can assure you that some one or some thing will be using radar to cross-check with ADS-b and identify aircraft or UAS' not shown on ADS-b screens. Further, it is highly unlikely that all rule airspace will move to ADS-b over traditional radar in 2020. It will be a slow transition. Therefore, much rule airspace will still use traditional radar for some time.

Larry
 
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Shouldn't we have the option to just not carry Mode C and not fly into non ADS-B equipped airspace??

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but you have exactly that option. ADS-B is only required if you want to fly in ADS-B airspaces. You can fly in the vast majority of the USA without ADS-B (or a transponder). There is no requirement for enroute ADS-B below 10K'.
 
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but you have exactly that option. ADS-B is only required if you want to fly in ADS-B airspaces. You can fly in the vast majority of the USA without ADS-B (or a transponder). There is no requirement for enroute ADS-B below 10K'.

He is referring to the opposite case; ONLY installing adsb-out and NOT a mode C transponder.

Chris
 
The transponder is to make the airlines safe. They all carry transponder-based collision avoidance systems. That's their backup if, say, GPS goes down.
The FAA's future vision is that you will carry and maintain a transponder solely for this purpose.
 
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