Best GPS for under $1000 (portable for panel mounting)

I was going to put a Garmin 196 in the panel or find an upgrade 396 or 496, to complement my Dynon EFIS and Grand Rapids EIS engine monitor. I like the idea I can take it out to program it or what ever, using an Air-gizmo panel mount.


Garmin Aera 500 (spelling is right I guess)?
Small, more of a car like GPS touch interface I gather.
I like the hard buttons on the older Garmin's.
Touch screen might be a pain in the bumps?

The iFly 700 GPS with a big 7" diagonal screen...
May be too big to fit on the panel with ease. It has
cheap yearly updates and uses sectional as a back ground.
http://ifly.adventurepilot.com/

AvMap V is out... I always liked the look, but for some
vauge reason I've been warned away from them?

iPad? I see mention of this around? Whats the word on that?

Garmin 396 or 496 would still be best? Thoughts?


I'd love a fancy integrated system, $2,500, $7,500 or on up, but that is overkill for a RV-7 sport plane day/night VFR, occasional XC. (I am an ATP with no real desire to fly SEL single pilot IFR, did enough as a CFI)

My self imposed limit is $1000, however if there is a quantum leap in performance I'd go to $2000. I don't really care about XM weather capability (fee service right). Nice, but not going to use it.

I had over 1000 hours in my RV-4 with a Garmin 195 mounted right in the middle of the panel... that was a joy and did magic navigation in route.

I can tell you that prices are dropping fast. I just purchased a 696 on ebay for 1475. 496's are now under 1000 and I figure my 396 is only going to be worth about 500.00. There are a bunch of 696's on Ebay at the moment. I would look in that direction. There is a small fraud problem on Ebay with some items. Look at the sellers feedback and location. DO NOT BID ON THE 696 in INDONESIA! Look at their feedback and you can tell pretty fast if its a legit auction.

George

I'll second that

George, I have two 496's...one in my Air Tractor and another in my -10....my first loves, not the 430W that shares panel space in my -10.

Talk about an abundance of information at the push of a button! Just the 'nearest' button, shows nearest Airports (you can add grass strips) FSS, ARTCC and their frequencies, Towns, and so on. Probably as much bang for your buck as you can get. I'll bet that $1,000 buys you one.

Best

I installed a 496 in my panel and recently purchased an iFly, too.

I've only taken a couple of flights with the iFly installed, but I really like it so far. I like being able to see exactly where I am on a sectional chart. The scren resolution on the 496 is great, but it's not the same as seeing the little airplane symbol move over the sectional chart.

As for user interface, I like the Garmin's buttons over the iFly's touch screen. Of course the upside to the touch screen is that when you're done touching it, the whole thing is usable as a map. The total space of the 496 including the buttons is *almost* as much as the iFly, but only about 50% of that real estate is screen with the rest being input buttons.

Realistically, I think a person would get used to either unit and would be happy with either. I also appreciate the $69/yr unlimited updates with the iFly as compared to ~$45/each for just the nav data on the Garmin.

For what it's worth...

$1000

For $1000 you can get an ipad 3g generation 1 with skycharts, and a bendix av80r. Love that combo, works great for me and both get used on trips...with or without the plane. Bendix works great in the car, kids enjoy the ipad and it lets you get weather etc anytime your near a wifi with no monthly fees.

Amazing what is out there at low cost. Moving map on vfr charts is great on ipad, back up panel on bendix is great too. I also have gps on my dynon skyview...so...thats three gps...i am good for vfr i think.

If you are not concerned about weather, consider the 495. It has everything the 496 does except weather.
I LOVE mine!

new I fly available.

I have an I Fly basic unit I bought several weeks ago with the intention of raffling if off for a good cause (our BBQ) however don't think I will do that now. The unit is for sale and you can fill out the original registration with your name. The unit is excellent GPS /map and I just don't need it in my RV9 I have a 396 . I also had a 196 wired in the panel with Gismo and latter upgraded to 396. Caution on that the 196 and 396 and latter have a different plug in for the power and data out . So be careful or you will have to replace the plug and rewire. The I fly is available for $500 ( $50 discount from on line price) It is really a great unit with good screen size and a lot of information easily accessible. The unit its the on line "base" package. [email protected]

My 295 isn't as old as your 195, George, maybe I can hang in there a while longer and watch the prices come down some more.

The new stuff is dazzling. The choices are many and the features much more than needed for basic VFR. The old clunker 295 couples with Navaid, has a quick nearest feature and hasn't lost me yet, so I can hang in there a while longer.

The development of ADS-B is stirring up the market. I believe the products coming are driving Garmin prices down already. When some of these devices are IFR certified with ADS-B, Garmin's virtual lock on that market will be gone.

We've got an extra 396 that we keep meaning to advertise George - it's yours for $999 (since you set the price)....

Other offers entertained of course.....

Paul

I would reconsider the weatheer option. I have it on my Garmin Aera 596 and I absolutely think it is invaluable. It also will alert you to TFRs that may pop up along your route of flight. RVs can cover some ground so even the best planned flight could be diverted because of a number of things and with the XM subscription, you are covered. HIGHLY recommend. It's like flying without GPS. Yes, you could, but would you really want to these days? The touch screen takes some getting used to but is easily done with a pen or some type of "stylus" device to pin point what you want to select.

If you are dead set against an XM wx subscribtion, I would just go with an iPad 3g. They are plentiful, can be picked up used even cheaper, and if you find it is not right for you there is a larger population to sell it to. You really can't lose. It offers much more than a dedicated aviation GPS when you are not IN the plane. And while I believe there is enough software out there to currently make the iPad the ideal buy, there are serious companies out there developing more and more software and they are collaborating with the FAA to make things "legal". For a portable without weather, it can't be beat.

AOPA had a recent article in AOPA PILOT magazine about the development of software coming for the iPad. VERY promising stuff. I got my iPad as a Christmas present and I thought, "Great, just what I need, another Apple product that will suck you dry buying APPS and such". I have found it hard to imagine life without it. Surf the internet, read books, replaces my paper charts, flight plans, etc etc.

Can you tell I'm an iPad fan?

In my opinion, the good old 196 is still one of the *best* because:

• It's got a good GPS receiver in it that's perfectly capable of getting you from point A to point B.
• It has the Garmin "instrument panel" screen that can get you by in a pinch for a substitute airspeed and turn coordinator if you loose your primary flight instruments.
• It uses commodity AA batteries that you can get anywhere, meaning if you lose ship's power for some reason, you don't have to rely on a proprietary rechargeable battery that you might only have one of. If the batteries go dead in flight, you can easily change them with a fresh set from your flight bag.
• The monochrome LCD screen doesn't fade in bright sunlight... it gets more readable!
• At night the backlight can be turned down to a very soft glow that doesn't mess up your night vision yet you can still read the screen very well.
• It's got real buttons that are easy to operate in turbulence.
• Good used ones are dirt cheap now.

Thanks Gent... That is good info, spooling up on the state-O art of GPS...

I found Youtube has a ton of aviation GPS videos which are informative...
I sat through several and didn't make a dent in the play list.


I checked iPay and see a ton of used 396/496 with all the goodies, some looking barely
used or almost new for well under a grand. A 196 should be cheaper... The 696's used
are about $1700, because the 796's just came out. 796 adds some fancy 3D graphics
for terrain.

Thanks for the tip on the data power cable difference between garmin models.. Thanks
for the tips on the 196 and 395, probably get them cheaper. Garmin has dropped all the
old models but one; they still sells 196's new ($595).

Lots of choices!

Remember when you had to navigate by looking out the Window? Compass & Clock? May
be tune in a VOR or NDB? I remember if you had RNAV DME or LORAN C, it was magic! Ha ha.

gmcjetpilot said:

796 adds some fancy 3D graphics for terrain.

Click to expand...

3D sounds neat. Flew to Leadville today for breakfast. Saw all the terrain perfectly....looking out the window.

Ron Lee said:

3D sounds neat. Flew to Leadville today for breakfast. Saw all the terrain perfectly....looking out the window.

Click to expand...

The cool part............is to see how the terrain mapping matches the actual. Then you'll know, that on a moonless night, inadvertant IMC, or just IFR/IMC...........that you'll have chance, when everything goes against you...

IMO, with all the aircraft that have splatted on our local mountain sides over the years..........I think synthetic vision is just great!!!

L.Adamson

Agreed!

L.Adamson said:

.....IMO, with all the aircraft that have splatted on our local mountain sides over the years..........I think synthetic vision is just great!!!

L.Adamson

Click to expand...

We've also had clouds with rocks in north Georgia. A famous astronaut flew into them in a Cessna 210 not too long ago!

Best,

196

Thanks for the tip on the data power cable difference between garmin models.. Thanks
for the tips on the 196 and 395, probably get them cheaper. Garmin has dropped all the
old models but one; they still sells 196's new ($595).

Click to expand...

My wife was complaining that our 396 wasn't easy for her to read, so bought an almost new 196 w/all accessories for $295 and mounted on her side with a suction cup. She loves it and I now have a backup GPS.

BTW George, do you have any of those T-shirts left over? Sorry..
GREAT to see you back here, try it more often, willya?

pierre smith said:

We've also had clouds with rocks in north Georgia. A famous astronaut flew into them in a Cessna 210 not too long ago! Best,

Click to expand...

I think you mean Scott Crossfield, that was weather... he was in and around severe thunder storms, turbulence, icing on a IFR FP at 10,000 and lost control, even broke the plane. Parts were found over a wide area. He lived at the right time to be one of the top test pilots of the 20th century. He was 84.
Wiki Scott_Crossfield Fatal_crash_and_reactions, Factual NTSB Report, Final NTSB report

I find it curious they list ATC as a factor for not keeping him out of weather? I didn't know that was ATC's responsibility.

As far as terrain clearance, if you fly low, below MOCA or MSA or common sense, you can hit things (I've done it and been lucky) ... two examples:

Synthetic 3D is great if you like flying mountain passes down low at night, might be a good thing , but the key is to fly higher than all terrain and obstacle. Daa It's not that hard to do. HOWEVER at night in mountainous terrain, IFR a 3D GPS could be a life saver! Heck we can buy FLIR for GA planes now!

I admit I've done low flying. About 25 yrs ago, pre GPS for GA, flying a Piper over the Columbia river gorge, Eastern Washington state, I decided to dip down below the lip of the gorge. The gorge was wide enough make a 180, so I thought why not. I had checked the sectional chart, looked OK. (wrong) I dropped down and was now below AGL so to speak, flying down the river. Then I saw a cable stretched across the river, JUST AS IT WENT OVER THE TOP OF THE PLANE!! I learned my lesson and was lucky. GPS can't save dumb. That was a dumb thing to do. Would GPS software understand flying BELOW AGL? Fate is the Hunter.

Flying to Oshkosh from SEA, half way some where over Montana or Dakota's I decided to not climb after a fuel stop, stayed at 1000 agl or less, sparsely populated, dropped lower over some crop fields. Weeeee! It was fun but it's dangerous and knew it. Would a 3D GPS save me? I doubt it, if there is some uncharted tower a farmer put up.... Fly low, take your chances. If I want to get my low flying jollys off, err "aborted landing" practice I do it over a runway. I figure that is clear of obstacles.

Scud running is another no-no. I've done it in my backyard, local, "special vfr" where I know the terrain and obstacles, in theory could go IFR if needed. Would a GPS with 3D terrain info help? Solution, don't fly in low VFR WX. Bill Benedict and his son, Van's aircraft, were killed flying low in weather. That was very sad. They hit a 60' tree at about 45', weather was likely IFR. Link. Sobering. RIP.

I wounder if 3D GPS will encourage VFR pilots to fly in low weather. Will 3D synthetic GPS save lives? Clearly REAL TIME weather in cockpit should save lives? but VFR pilots get briefings of LOW VFR going to solid IFR and still launch. I don't need synthetic 3D GPS on my VFR sport plane. If I have to absolutely be there, I'll take a commercial flight or drive.

Anyway back to GPS...the 196, 395, 396, 496 look good enough to me. The 496 has taxi and AOPA info, which is nice, plus XM WX if I get the urge to subscribe. I get lost taxiing, ha ha! May be the 696's will come down in price more? I want to test drive an iFly 700, looks pretty awesome. An iPad might be in my future as a supplement. Clearly stacks of WAC's is old hat. I need to buy a new car first, before a new GPS. However, if you have an old GPS listed above, you don't want, send it to the gmcjetpilot GPS charity fund, your contributions are NOT tax deductible.

gmcjetpilot said:

I wounder if 3D GPS will encourage VFR pilots to fly in low weather. Will 3D synthetic GPS save lives? Clearly REAL TIME weather in cockpit should save lives? but VFR pilots get briefings of LOW VFR going to solid IFR and still launch. I don't need synthetic 3D GPS on my VFR sport plane. If I have to absolutely be there, I'll take a commercial flight or drive.

Click to expand...

There will certainly be that question. On the other hand, I have lots of examples, of where it would have made a difference.

One that comes to mind, happened a few years ago, just on the other side of the mountain from where I live. A first officer was flying the aircraft, which was a fire bomber on a repositioning flight. Instead of filing IFR, they decided to fly under the weather. As they flew across the Great Salt Lake, the captain who was somewhat familiar with the area, was pointing out points of interest, while calling out course and altitude changes. The first officer noticed the depiction of rising terrain ahead........on the Garmin 396 portable GPS. He mentioned this to the captain, but the captain didn't respond. Ten miles later in IMC, they flew straight into the mountainside. Had there been a synthetic 3D representation on the MFD, I truly doubt the pilot would have ignored it, regardless of the captains lack of instructions.

In the meantime, we've had numerous cases of white-out conditions around here, both daytime and night...........which have been the partial cause of numerous CFIT accidents. Also the "black hole" effect, which is from a total absence of ground lighting.

Anyway, I just have case after case, of where terrain depiction, and especially synthetic vision would have made the difference. There are many airliners that hit the terrain around here in the 1930's through 40's, as well as a DC-8 in the 70's. Those captains would have loved this "new stuff"!

L.Adamson -- Garmin 696

I test drove the Ifly 700 and just sent it back. They have a way to go, and maybe in their new 6.0 update will clear up some issues. I had glare issues, software update issues as far as TFR updates, the mount is suction which made the screen unreadable due to vibration (and I have a smooth plane). Shane states they are working on some of these issues. The screen (display) needs to be more clear and bright. I also did not like that there was no way to just turn off the IFly without unpluging it. I was relying on TFR data downloaded twice on a flight and it cost me $85 in fuel to skirt around the TFR that was no longer even in place. There is an issue in regards to removing the TFR on the screen after it has been downloaded and expires. They state work is in progress on this issue.

Will might be a nice unit if they can get the bugs out!

Out of honesty, I should mention that I called Ed in customer service and was told I would get a call back in 5 minutes due to a walk-in customer. I left my name and cell #, as of today... I've never heard from Ed.

LifeofReiley said:

I test drove the Ifly 700 and just sent it back. They have a way to go, and maybe in their new 6.0 update will clear up some issues. .....There is an issue in regards to removing the TFR on the screen after it has been downloaded and expires. They state work is in progress on this issue.

Will might be a nice unit if they can get the bugs out! Out of honesty, I should mention that I called Ed in customer service and was told I would get a call back in 5 minutes due to a walk-in customer. I left my name and cell #, as of today... I've never heard from Ed.

Click to expand...

Excellent detailed info... Yep wait and see. I heard about glare and low visibility in daylight. New screen or antiglare, software upgrades... the price stay the same... sounds like it would be a winner.

L.Adamson said:

There will certainly be that question. On the other hand, I have lots of examples, of where it would have made a difference.

The first officer noticed the depiction of rising terrain ahead........on the Garmin 396 portable GPS. He mentioned this to the captain, but the captain didn't respond.

Click to expand...

That is a good point. It sounds like more of a CRM issue than Nav (crew resource management). May be a 3D "synthetic" picture would have convinced the Captain, but the Garmin 396 was telling them the INFO. They or the Captain ignored it. They did not discuss it? Just disregarded it. I hate talking about dead pilots... because I could have done somethings like that.... The F/O should have pressed the captain. I suppose the FO was new may be, assumed the captain knew. Still GPS or not they were VFR into IFR. Too bad. I think I remember that accident... P2 and hit a hill... there was a picture of it on the web.

CRM training came about because of accidents like this. The dynamics of the captain/FO was different in the past, the FO was just a monkey to raise and lower the gear to some captains, not part of the team and a valuable resource.

CFIT accidents. Also the "black hole" effect, which is from a total absence of ground lighting.

Click to expand...

I hear you. If the 3D synthetic display can keep VFR (or IFR) pilots upright better than a AI/DG presentation it will be good. However I don't see it being superior in normal flight when you have wide terrain clearance. The AI and DG are still pretty much the standard. The improvements like EFIS that allows more info on one instrument is a bonus (but can overwhelm pilots). Same with NAV displays, too busy they can distract. Also in VFR pilots should LOOK outside not stare at the PFD EFIS.

As you say, you get into situations where even a diligent VFR or IFR pilot gets SURPRISED by "IFR" conditions, even in VFR weather. Taking off from Sedona Arizona (the one on the mountain plateau) in my old RV-4, clear moonless night, pitch dark, no city lights, I was a startled on takeoff how little (no) visual clues I had. My vacuum AI and DG were out of the plane at the time. An T&B is pathetic in a RV if there is turbulence. Long story short I survived. Same with Lake Front Airport in New Orleans. Take off night over big lake Pontratrain, no moon, might as well be IFR. Lots of accidents over the years with that scenario.

I hear you. Even Pvt pilots get a handful of instrument time... of course they get rusty, don't use it. 3D EFIS or basic 6-Pack or needle-ball-airspeed it will not help, if you lose control or fly into something. Technology can only go so far.

Anyway, I just have case after case, of where terrain depiction, and especially synthetic vision would have made the difference. There are many airliners that hit the terrain around here in the 1930's through 40's, as well as a DC-8 in the 70's. Those captains would have loved this "new stuff"! L.Adamson -- Garmin 696

Click to expand...

All the Air transport planes for decades have had GPWS (Ground Prox Warning Systems). At first they were crude. They were based on airspeed, altitude, VSI, radar altimeter, plane configuration... They often gave false alarms. In one case in south America the crew got a warning and the voice recorder recorded, "shut up gringo" and they hit the cumulus granite cloud. It would have saved an accident like the Eastern L1011 in the Everglades, which was CFIT, descended while the crew was distracted. (I think this is the accident that motivated GPWS). Then GPS became common, now there is Advanced GPWS, which does predictive terrain avoidance, based on GPS and terrain data. Most jets don't show you this data on the PFD, but you get a big old aural warning, PULL UP TERRAIN! Jets have color radar (doppler so it can see wind shear), which can be used to paint terrain. All these would have saved many accidents like you are thinking of. So it's good that GA is getting better technology. However my point is the PILOT, training, currency, decision making is probably more critical than the best GPS you can buy.

It's like airbags in cars save lives, but if you drive drunk or stupid you still get killed or kill others. The human factor is there with flying and technology will not save us alone.

TCAS.. traffic collision avoidance system, came about because of the Cerritos Ca, midair between a Air Mexican airliner and a Piper, I believe. I am sure it has saved lives.... HOWEVER it has caused accidents. In South America a fancy Business Jet and Boeing hit. The Boeing went down. It was in part ATC's fault but the business jet crew forgot or was confused about how to turn on the TCAS. In another case, over Europe, a DHL 757 freighter and Russian passenger Airliner hit midair and both crashed, due to the Russian crew initially responding improperly to their TCAS commands. It is possible the TCAS systems of the planes gave improper or conflicting commands. TCAS commands climb or descend. TCAS is assuming the conflict aircraft is going to stay on the current vector. If it does something radically different (responding to it's own TCAS warning) there could be a problem. ATC was at fault as well.... TCAS software and training was updated.


A lot of the JET accidents of the 60's and 70's was from training, the fact they did not have flight simulators... plus they did not know what they were doing... You do stuff in simulators you would be crazy to do intentionally in the plane... It's like Single Engine work in Twins... there were lots of accidents from "simulated engine failures"... Same with SPINS in single engine planes... thus the Pvt Pilot syllabus makes it optional. They were killing more people practicing spins than in normal flying. The emphasis is stall awareness and spin avoidance. I still took students up in an acrobat with chutes if they wanted to. They all did it.

Many FAR's, rules and aviation technologies we have and use were born from accidents. It's too bad they don't lower the price. Regardless if you do any flying, not having a good GPS with at least some basic airspace and terrain warning info is silly... the price of the older Gramins are cheap. Even my 195 gets the job done with obstacle and airspace warnings. It saved me once or twice from flying into restricted areas. Now with TFR's it's even easier to "make the news"...

"An amateur built plane called an "R Vee" was forced to land by military jets when it wandered too close to the golf course the President was playing at. The pilot is now being questioned by CIA. Sources say the pilot is talking, said something about not buying latest GPS or Nav update for his old GPS... It could be code for something or the pilot is a dumb*** cheapskate for not buying the newest GPS technology with current nav data." Ha ha.

How are the Garmins for TFR updates? Just do it the old fashion way, check before flying on the web and make a note.

gmcjetpilot said:

Synthetic 3D is great if you like flying mountain passes down low at night, might be a good thing , but the key is to fly higher than all terrain and obstacle. Daa It's not that hard to do.

Click to expand...

Perhaps comments like this come from pilots who do not normally fly in areas with mountains like those near where I live.

The mountain two miles from my house is 11,750 feet high. The local sectional shows the maximum elevation figures adjacent to my home airport as 12,100. Clearing all terrain by 1000 feet would require flying at 13,100 MSL or higher, which would require oxygen. And even if you cruise higher than all the terrain and obstacles, you still have to weave your way around all those pesky mountains during climbout and approach.

In some situations, flying higher than all terrain and obstacles IS hard to do.

iFly 700 GPS

George,
I have had an iFly for a couple months now. They have had a few issues I think due to software and database changes in preparation to bring out their latest version 6.0. I signed up as a beta tester and the last two weeks there have been a bunch of changes. The latest beta version, everything works as expected. Download METARS, TAFS, Winds, geo-referenced approach charts, etc. Right now the iFly can get the ADS-B weather and traffic if you have a Skyradar antenna (about $950, I don't have am waiting for the Dynon solution). 6.0 Should be released in the next week or so. I am very satisfied with all the software aspects of it.
On the iFly forum, they did address a complaint about an expired TFR that continued to show on the charts. Walter, the company president said the problem was the government data did not specify an expiration date on that particular TFR and they were looking into it.
The flight planning function is good, it is neat to see your airplane track across sectionals, enroute, terminal and approach plates. The screen is small. Zoom is your friend. You can see an entire plate or read it. Not both. The screen is too dark for a bright sunny day and sunglasses if you want it on your RV panel. It does have a problem with glare but no more so than an IPad. For that reason I do not have mine mounted on the panel but leave it lying between the seats and pick it up if I want to use it.
For me, flight planning and maps are handled by my Skyview displays. I wanted a complete set of VFR/IFR charts and plates in a compact box. It beats a stack of WACs completely.

George,

Over the past ten years across four projects the old 196 remains my favorite. My lustful eyes fell upon the Lowrance 1000 but they're now orphans. The newer contraptions are nice with color, features, and eye candy - and with enough difficulty learning to use them swiftly and surely by a stressed pilot to swoon a geek.

GPS devices more than anything else in your panel change quicker than your underwear. What's today's darling is tomorrow's cast off. My suggestion for you is to install whatever you choose in such a manner that substituting something else won't mean a complete panel rebuild, sort of a modular concept.

I really think my next build will use a 196 (I hope Garmin doesn't abandon this one for a while) for flight plans to drive the autopilot, then set aside acreage for a large screen cheap something for pretty maps, geo-referenced charts, big board ticker crawl, etc., something I can throw away seasonally with little financial concern.

Geo, I'm with you on the terrain. Fly the numbers if you can't see. It's IFR and you're supposed to have a certified GPS box if you filed /G. Not an iPiddle.

John Siebold
Boise, ID

TThurston said:

In some situations, flying higher than all terrain and obstacles IS hard to do.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Either equip to fly high or stay away from terrain. Saying you need 3D to fly in the mountains in fog or snow means that you failed as a pilot.

Many GPS units have terrain alerts which can help but if you are flying in risky conditions in the mountains, Darwin is waiting for you.

If you want 3D terrain go for it, but don't use it as a substitute for good judgment.

Ron Lee said:

Wrong. Either equip to fly high or stay away from terrain. Saying you need 3D to fly in the mountains in fog or snow means that you failed as a pilot.

Many GPS units have terrain alerts which can help but if you are flying in risky conditions in the mountains, Darwin is waiting for you.

If you want 3D terrain go for it, but don't use it as a substitute for good judgment.

Click to expand...

Good judgement, doesn't always work...

This is another "true" example. A pilot was flying IFR at night, cross country, to an area and airport that he was very familiar with. Since his home airport does not have an ILS, he cancelled IFR as he was over the lights of the city.

Unfortunately, being a dark night, a low lying cloud suddenly obscured the ground lights against a quickly rising backdrop of terrain. He became disoriented and flew low level over subdivisions located on the mountain bench........before slamming into terrain. This location is within a few miles of where TThurston lives.

Once again....... 3D synthetic vision, could easily make a difference. I'm very happy that it's now in existence. We use to average three CFITs every year, around this mountainous country.

I really DO, have many more examples.

L.Adamson

Garmin Aera 510

I mounted an Aera 510 in an air gizmo dock. I like the touch screen and weather.

agirard7a said:

I mounted an Aera 510 in an air gizmo dock. I like the touch screen and weather.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the pretty picture... I like it. I will put the Aera back on the list. Like the wood panel, real veneer I assume? Purdy The Aera's (why did they spell it like that) is so news I have not heard much. As some one said it has more screen the the legacy Gramin because it's all screen at least then the soft keys hide. Glad to see some one with out a $20,000 panel.

What kind of wood?
How much of a panel extension did you put?

TThurston said:

Perhaps comments like this come from pilots who do not normally fly in areas with mountains like those near where I live.

The mountain two miles from my house is 11,750 feet high. The local sectional shows the maximum elevation figures adjacent to my home airport as 12,100. Clearing all terrain by 1000 feet would require flying at 13,100 MSL or higher, which would require oxygen. And even if you cruise higher than all the terrain and obstacles, you still have to weave your way around all those pesky mountains during climbout and approach.

In some situations, flying higher than all terrain and obstacles IS hard to do.

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I hear you. I was being sarcastic, sorry...and have done my share of mountain flying... I have an ORIGINAL Sparky J. Imeson Mountain flying VHS tape and several mountain airstrip guides. (I just found out he passed in a plane crash in 2009, yes mountain flying) ... As a CFI in Seattle and 135 freight dog, I flew across and through the Cascades, not as high as your mountain pass. My favorite trip was flying into Johnson Creek, ID ... Every RV'er should go there once. I was going to stay for a day, I stayed three. I have been over Mount Baker, Rainier, circled Saint Helens many times. I use to take a trip from Seattle to Phoenix in the RV-4 a few times a year, when my dad was alive, fly over the pass, past Mt Shasta, I'd cut over and across the Sierra Nevadas. If I had a good tailwind I'd make Truckee (Tahoe) and get fuel at 5900'. Kind of nice not having to descend or climb much for a fuel stop. I love landing at mountain strips, but I'd never think about doing at night or poor visibility for fun. Just me. Day time only for me.

For pleasure night over mountains is not my plan A. If I do, it's pseudo IFR procedures, fly airways. I know MEA's are high and O2 at night would be a must... thus why I don't do it. Of course you lose your engine over the mountains at night (or day)... "Never found..." might be your epitaph. May be the new generation of ELT's will help them find the wreck and your body before the critters get it. It took a hiker to find Steve Fossett's plane crash site a year later. He was not around...

I don't take mountain flying lightly, and if you think 3D synthetic vision helps you go for it. I am sure it would, but most people don't live in the mountains. Personally my worries in mountain passes are down drafts, density altitude, short runways, obstacles, on and on. GPS can't compensate for this. Not getting lost is key, and GPS is a must have, the 3D stuff is cool! The ubiquitous 50' obstacles in the manuals are quaint when looking at mountain strips; Evergreens at the edge of some strips are 100' or 150' tall!

My point is I'M NOT going to fly low vis or night time through a mountain pass as a rule ever! That is my personal rule at least. I mountain fly for fun. I want to see it. Looking out the windscreen is good enough for me. I have gotten confused in mountain passes using pilotage alone before GPS. I DO LOVE GPS! Many people have met greif in Stevens or Snoqualmie pass, missing the turn and going into a blind cannon...it's worse of course when "scud running" the pass. May be 3D vision would save the day? For one it's illegal and two, it's dumb in my humble opinion. I don't mean to offend you. I just am very chicken o) or conservative around mountains. Lots of respect for the big rocks in the sky. I can see 3D is good for low visibility around terrain. I WANT IT... I just don't want to pay for it. I don't think I will use it. May be when the price is lower I'll get a 796.

I also don't fly near mountain when the winds aloft are more than 25 knots. Flying a PA34-200T (Seneca II) from Seattle to Spoken at night at 10,000, IFR, icing I was literal hanging on my straps; anything not tied down was on the ceiling of the cockpit for what seemed like forever, like you see in the space station, floating. The VSI was pegged and altitude unwinding. Then I was slammed up, the other way. I never pooed in my britches since I was about 2 yrs old, but this would have been the time for involuntary release. I AM AFRAID OF DEM-DAR MOUNTAINS! I like to go over them at 35,000 feet.

L.Adamson said:

Good judgement, doesn't always work...

This is another "true" example. A pilot was flying IFR at night, cross country, to an area and airport that he was very familiar with. Since his home airport does not have an ILS, he cancelled IFR as he was over the lights of the city.

Unfortunately, being a dark night, a low lying cloud suddenly obscured the ground lights against a quickly rising backdrop of terrain. He became disoriented and flew low level over subdivisions located on the mountain bench........before slamming into terrain. This location is within a few miles of where TThurston lives.

Once again....... 3D synthetic vision, could easily make a difference. I'm very happy that it's now in existence. We use to average three CFITs every year, around this mountainous country.

I really DO, have many more examples.

L.Adamson

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Please I don't want you to think, I think its a BAD thing to have... I am only talking about my needs... but I see your point... If this happens, as you say, inadvertent VFR into IFR at night, accidentally around hills ... I'd first say don't do that!

If you do fly VFR into IFR, fly the airplane with the flight instruments, using basic situational awareness (from a basic GPS); turn away from the terrain, normally a 180 degree turn is needed or turn towards the airport (left or right might make a life or death difference, but if you are IFR that close to rock clouds???). The 3D synthetic display may make it easier, agree. "Situational awareness" is still needed. I think the 3D thing would help, but a good color GPS with terrain mapping would be almost as good. Often the "missed approach" on instruments is a climbing turn back to the airport or IAF (initial approach fix).... It's a very scary proposition having a VFR pilot go IFR day or night, not to mention rising terrain in one or more directions nearby... It makes my testicles recoil thinking about it.

In my biased but some what factual based opinion, most, more than 50% of average private pilots will kill them self with inadvertent VFR into IFR, even with EFIS and a fancy Nav display. Just the existance of gadgets in the panel does not mean they can use them. EFIS will not keep pilots from getting vertigo or losing control. An autopilot wing leveler may save a VFR pilot more than "3D synthetic vision".... Either way practice under the hood with a safety pilot several times a year, and best just avoid that VFR pilot in IFR scenario. IFR attitude instrument flying is a skill, and no amount of DISPLAY will give that to a pilot, who does not possess that skill. I worry it will make people bold... like a display is magic and equivalent to an IFR rating.

Statistically the chance of a VFR pilot surviving VFR into IFR, by accident, terrain or no terrain, is fairly low. I doubt a GPS will save them... unless coupled to a wing leveler. RV's are fast devils and unusual attitude will wind the airspeed up fast. At that point your 3D synthetic visions display will be irrelevant if you are out of control. I did some test what RV's do in unusual attitudes... not good, but RV's handle well. RV's can't be certified for stability alone.

With that said if you fly in and around mountainous terrain, day or night, a good GPS with color terrain plan view mapping would be a good thing. The fancy 3D display is even better. I am sure we agree, just saying it differently, pilot judgment is still more important in avoiding those dangerous situations.

Panel

gmcjetpilot said:

Thanks for the pretty picture... I like it. I will put the Aera back on the list. Like the wood panel, real veneer I assume? Purdy The Aera's (why did they spell it like that) is so news I have not heard much. As some one said it has more screen the the legacy Gramin because it's all screen at least then the soft keys hide. Glad to see some one with out a $20,000 panel.

What kind of wood?
How much of a panel extension did you put?

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Thanks, Mahogany paper backed self adhesive veneer. Holding up well so far.
No extension. Panel is about 5k.

gmcjetpilot said:

The Aera's (why did they spell it like that) is so news I have not heard much. As some one said it has more screen the the legacy Gramin because it's all screen at least then the soft keys hide.

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FYI- the soft keys on the Aera do not hide. The display is much larger than the display on a 430 though. BUT... In bright sunlight it becomes almost unreadable, and it's worse with sunglasses. On overcast days it's perfect. If they could come out with one that had a brighter screen I would upgrade in a heartbeat.

Snowflake said:

FYI- the soft keys on the Aera do not hide. The display is much larger than the display on a 430 though. BUT... In bright sunlight it becomes almost unreadable, and it's worse with sunglasses. On overcast days it's perfect. If they could come out with one that had a brighter screen I would upgrade in a heartbeat.

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Thanks... I think that is a theme with the touch screens.... I am sure in a Cessna with built in aluminum overgast, mounted on yoke or side RAM mount it's fine ....

agirard7a said:

Thanks, Mahogany paper backed self adhesive veneer. Holding up well so far. No extension. Panel is about 5k.

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$5K... you are my hero! Nice work... what's going in the big square hole? Dynon, Grand Rapids.... G1000? ha ha.

I just used a 196 to bring a Stinson across the country from North Carolina to Washington State. Fantastic little device. I had to give it back to the plane's seller when I got home and I'm thinking about replacing it with another 196. I have several years using the 296 in the Beavers through the mountainous terrain of coastal British Columbia and those were great as well, though I certainly had more use for the terrain mapping features in the Beaver (where we would routinely go through small passes to hop from one safe inlet to another) than I would in a land plane. Flying through the mountains at night in a VFR, single engine plane? No thanks, I'll leave that to the owls. I'd rather just use good judgment than rely on technology to save my life.

Aera display size cf GPSMAP 196/296/396/495/496.
I have both Aera (I agree ++ - why did they spell it thus) and 495.
Aera has black background soft keys permanently displayed on right of screen.
If measure screen size of 495 etc, and cscreen size not including black soft key area of Aera, exactly same size.
So display viewable size no different comparing the 2.
John
PS I prefer the 495 to the Aera - prefer the multple buttons always available.

gmcjetpilot said:

Thanks... I think that is a theme with the touch screens.... I am sure in a Cessna with built in aluminum overgast, mounted on yoke or side RAM mount it's fine ....

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It is. When I use it in my parent's Cessna 150, no problems whatsoever. In fact, I suspect if I ever find a more suitable GPS for the RV i'll probably give it to them to replace their old Garmin G100.

Flyfalcons said:

Flying through the mountains at night in a VFR, single engine plane? No thanks, I'll leave that to the owls. I'd rather just use good judgment than rely on technology to save my life.

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Since I'm at 4670' to start with, I suppose I'm already in a mountainous area, considering peaks rise to 12000-13000'+ msl in just a few miles. Never hurts to have an electronic representation of quickly rising terrain, shoud the unexpected happen. The unexpected hasn't happened to me, but for others it has. You never know. Synthetic vision is just another tool, that wasn't available in the past. It could easily be a life saver for you and your passengers. You won't know, until it really becomes extremely useful.... during those few seconds, that seemed to have bitten so many pilots of the past.

L.Adamson

Right, that's kind of why I avoid those situations in the first place. I'm certainly no stranger to mountain flying and minimizing my exposure to night flying in mountainous areas VFR keeps me away from getting bitten. Our Commanders have G600s with synth and it looks nice but I wouldn't use it as a crutch to fly bolder than I would otherwise.

tkatc said:

I got my iPad as a Christmas present... I have found it hard to imagine life without it... Can you tell I'm an iPad fan?

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tkatc, can you tell us what aviation apps you're using with it and which you've tried and found not ready for prime time?

Also, have you found an app that gives real time wx while airborne, do you use the 3G capability for wx or do you just bag wx on the iPad once airborne?