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Novice attempting to build the toolbox kit

B

BrettShaffer

Member
Hello VAF Community,

I'm a building novice and I've had the itch to build an RV-10 for some time now. I decided to make the plunge into the project by buying the essential tools and equipment to build the Vans toolbox kit. I started with the Cleaveland tool kit for the RV-10 and selected all of the tools that Vans has marked with a double asterisk on their recommended tool page, but I'm somewhat confused by the lack of asterisks around a dimpling mechanism. How would you dimple for rivets without a C-frame or DRDT2? If a dimpler is required, anything else on that list that should be marked with asterisks?

Thank you and looking forward to joining the community.
 
The corners and the lid are dimpled on the toolbox. It's a small enough project that you could get by with the pop-rivet style dimplers but you'd be better off getting the c-frame should you choose to build on.

FWIW, if you buy the kit, there is at least one place the instructions say to use a c-frame vs a squeezer: the tank attach screw dimples. The c-frame can also be used to back rivet some smaller pieces that can be a bit tricky/impossible with a squeezer or rivet gun like the aileron brackets, some nut plates (I just used mine to attach the stall warning nut plates), etc.
 
C-frame

C-Frame vs DRDT is such a personal choice, they leave it up to the builder.
Personally, that applies to quite a few on the list. I recommend new builders work with a Mentor before buying any tools. A few hours will help form a preference.
 
Exactly

Yes, personal choice, especially with the C frame and DRDT.

I had both initially and compared the results across hundreds of practice rivets. I found that they both do a good job but I was able to get more consistent results with the DRDT due to the variability in striking the C frame die. YMMV.

Oh, the DRDT is also almost silent...the ringing from the C frame 20,000+ times gets old!:D
 
Yes, personal choice, especially with the C frame and DRDT.
Click to expand...

I was fortunate to have both a C-frame and DRDT (Chapter tools). I preferred the DRDT for all sheet metal rivet holes, but the C-frame did give ?slightly? crisper dimples, and I used it for most screw dimples. Also, for dimpling nut plates, the c-frame did much better (multiple hits). The pneumatic squeezer also got used in some circumstances.

On a selected basis, I also used a pop rivet dimple die.
 
curious

Could those "crisper dimple be relative to the dies being used, or did you end up creating a sharp break with an excessive hammer strike?
 
Help

BrettShaffer said:
Thanks for the advice!
Follow-up questions:

After removing the cleco fasteners, some of them left circular marks. Is there a way to avoid this or does it matter?

Also, my deburring tool I used for the sheet edges does not fit inside the #40 drilled holes. What's the best way to debur the holes? I have a #40 countersink cutter (below) -- could this work?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter unless you plan to polish. The whole plane will be scuffed before paint. Most likely it was a loose shard from the drill that spun. You will see lots of them after countersinking a hole. If you want to pad the clekos, but some cleko pads or buy a package of paper reinforcements. One package goes a long way and costs almost nothing.

Yes, that cutter will work but just a turn or two with light pressure.
 
BrettShaffer said:
Thanks for the advice!

Follow-up questions:

After removing the cleco fasteners, some of them left circular marks. Is there a way to avoid this or does it matter?
https://i.imgur.com/mOIT432.jpg



Also, my deburring tool I used for the sheet edges does not fit inside the #40 drilled holes. What's the best way to debur the holes? I have a #40 countersink cutter (below) -- could this work?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0235/1929/products/[email protected]?v=1581818802
Click to expand...

The circular marks are normal and don't affect anything unless you plan to polish. You can get rubber boots that go on the end of the cleco if they really bother you but they run about the same cost as a cleco. You'll scuff up the surface worse than that when you go to paint or prime.

You can use a sharp twist drill to deburr the holes. Use something like a 1/4" drill bit and give it a twist by hand to remove the burr. The exact size doesn't matter as long as it's bigger than the hole.

I have the ATS deburr tool and it works well. It's worth the purchase should you start to build the airplane.
 
Excellent, used the countersink #40 for now until I get a better deburring tool for holes.

I successfully match-drilled the #40 holes, dimpled everything, and set a few rivets. I was able to use a pneumatic squeezer for the dimpling and that seemed to work fine. I wasn't able to get the squeezer positioned appropriately for the end plate rivet setting so I went with the bucking bar and rivet gun (first time using these as well).

Now for the endless questions!
- Please provide any general feedback of things you see wrong from the photos.
- Ergonomically, it was hard to figure out the best way to clamp and position the sheet metal in preparation for riveting. Does this set up look reasonable? Any recommendations here
- I have a rivet gauge coming in the mail from Cleaveland tools and understand the basics on how to figure out if the rivet is over- or under-set, but how does that change with a flush rivet? Just measure the shank end diameter?
- I had to move a few cleco fasteners around to fit the bar/rivet gun.. are you supposed to be able to set rivets with clecos in every other spot or is that only for match drilling?
- One of the photos shows the rivet squeezer at the inside corner of the toolbox end piece. The die seems to overlay a bit with the neighboring hole; any problem here? Ways to avoid this?

Images at the link below.

https://imgur.com/a/mR3TMyW
 
BrettShaffer said:
Now for the endless questions!
- Please provide any general feedback of things you see wrong from the photos.
- Ergonomically, it was hard to figure out the best way to clamp and position the sheet metal in preparation for riveting. Does this set up look reasonable? Any recommendations here
- I have a rivet gauge coming in the mail from Cleaveland tools and understand the basics on how to figure out if the rivet is over- or under-set, but how does that change with a flush rivet? Just measure the shank end diameter?
- I had to move a few cleco fasteners around to fit the bar/rivet gun.. are you supposed to be able to set rivets with clecos in every other spot or is that only for match drilling?
- One of the photos shows the rivet squeezer at the inside corner of the toolbox end piece. The die seems to overlay a bit with the neighboring hole; any problem here? Ways to avoid this?

Images at the link below.

https://imgur.com/a/mR3TMyW
Click to expand...

Work holding looks fine. Anything that doesn't damage the part and gets the job done works. There is no correct way to hold the parts. Just ways that are effective or not for your work style.

You have two rivets that appear to be set wrong. They have come out of the dimple. Easy to do if you don't have enough pressure on the gun, too much pressure on the bucking bar, or are using a set with a rubber ring that holds it proud from the work. Good news is you get to practice drilling them out (instructions are in section 5).

Need to be more careful with the bucking bar. Wrap some masking tape around it if needed to avoid those scratches.

It's completely normal to have to move clecos. Rivet spacing isn't consistent across the build. Sometimes you can set the rivet with every other hole, sometimes not. I generally put one in every 3rd hole unless it's fighting me or the instructions say to use more.

As for the rivet checking, flush vs universal you check the shop head the same way. The only difference is that with flush rivets you check the height above the dimple, not the skin. Diameter check is the same for both. In your last pic, you have one that "looks" correct (top rightmost), one that's probably overset (top of the three) and two that are wrong (the ones that aren't flush with the dimple).

When you get your gauges, you want to check to see what they are measuring. There is a minimum diameter, and a min and max height. There is no maximum diameter. Van's has the MIL spec on their site under tech info.

The overlapping set on the corner isn't an issue as long as it doesn't damage the other dimple.
 
Help

Jacob covered it well. Good start.

Those scratches are not a big deal on the tool box but you want to address the cause before building the plane. If it's the female die, grind a flat side. Also helps avoid hitting an adjacent hole. Gorilla tape is your friend. Wrap any tool that might scratch.

The dimples look a bit under dimpled. Hard to tell. That's common with a pneumatic. If you hold a part and look accross, the surface should reflect flat with no wavy imperfections. If you get a c-frame, whack each one hard twice to form a nice crisp dimple. If DRDT, read threads on proper set up.
 
This is such great feedback, great community here! Thanks

I'm going to wait to do any more until I get the gauge in the mail.

Probably a dumb question, but for dimpling: I dimpled twice for each hole--one on the end sheet and one matching on the base before putting the two together. Is this the appropriate way? I shouldn't be dimpling both sheets simultaneously right?
 
BrettShaffer said:
This is such great feedback, great community here! Thanks

I'm going to wait to do any more until I get the gauge in the mail.

Probably a dumb question, but for dimpling: I dimpled twice for each hole--one on the end sheet and one matching on the base before putting the two together. Is this the appropriate way? I shouldn't be dimpling both sheets simultaneously right?
Click to expand...

If you have a set of calipers you can check your shop head before the gauge arrives. If you don?t.. you should. I also use them to setup the squeezer to squeeze +0.050? for 1/8 and +0.040 for 3/32 rivets over the assembled thickness.

And yes you dimple the parts separately. Countersinking is sometimes done on assemblies when the top layer is too thin to support the countersink pilot.
 
Brett,
I was going to find some pictures of my toolbox to show you some bad riveting, but my rivets looked a lot like some of yours! Ha!! I tell you, you will get better. Lots of good tips from here already to help you out.

Get a couple pieces of scrap al and drill, dimple, and rivet them together. The best thing I did was visit a couple builders and watch them do a rivet and then let me try with them watching. I learned more in 10 min than I did screwing up my toolbox. I keep it only to remember how it was when I started and now I have a plane ready for DAR inspection. It is not perfect, but it is nice!
 
The Mil-Spec about riveting can be found on Van's Aircraft site. Go to Support, then Tech Q&A then look for MIL-R-47196A. It's definitely worth reading and Jacoby's advice about checking your gage is spot on.

I use a Harbor Freight digital caliper to check the rivets rather than a gage.

Dave
 
Ok, so gauge received and I made some adjustments to my bucking/riveting. MIL spec was very helpful. It's quite hard to figure out how to hold the bar steady but I guess that will come with experience.

Feedback requested on the following:
- Dimpling: I tried grabbing a video of what the dimples looked like with a reflection of a straight object. It seems like the reflection is not excessively warped either way, but looking for confirmation that this is what it should look like:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TWZqnnCZ4MtjCUwVA
- While securing with rivets, the two sheets started to become somewhat divergent, especially when I removed that corner cleco to get better access for riveting (see photo). Somewhere I read to start from the middle and work outward; any problem with what I'm seeing here prior to riveting?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NJmcWsNkRFNdFgbk6
- Pneumatic squeezer riveting with flat set: Photo of shop and factory heads. The gauge seems to show these as measuring appropriately. What can I do to prevent the circular marks on the top of the rivet?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/x9sZFvA2JAC16zVSA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CnmiyrDR1PTkZhdX6
 
I cant figure out the picture with the hinge. Is the hinge dimpled on the inside where you are setting it?
 
Back in 2006 EAA chapter 306 in Charlotte, NC hosted a builder's workshop. As part of that workshop, the students all built a Van's toolbox. A couple of days after the class, I received this picture from attendee Bill Wilson. Bill figured out how Van's must have determined the proper size of the box:


(click to enlarge)
 
Build Class encouragement

I'll offer another thought that I didn't see posted in this thread...

While I know that it may be challenging given the times in which we are living to find an in-person building class or a very knowledgeable mentor who can spend a lot of time with you, I would encourage you to patiently wait as long as necessary to take/find one before going too much further, and certainly before starting an RV-10. Most of your very normal questions/issues/challenges would be addressed by taking such a class. In the grand scheme of things, spending $200 on a class and waiting as long as it takes for classes to start opening up again, I think it it would be well worth it before dumping $120K+ into a plane that you, family, and friends might one day fly in. A one-day build class at Synergy Air was all it took for me to feel confident enough to start and it saved me lots of anxiety and $$$ for replacement parts once I did start!

Good luck with your toolbox, and, hopefully soon, an RV-10!
 
Questions

BrettShaffer said:
Ok, so gauge received and I made some adjustments to my bucking/riveting. MIL spec was very helpful. It's quite hard to figure out how to hold the bar steady but I guess that will come with experience.

Feedback requested on the following:
- Dimpling: I tried grabbing a video of what the dimples looked like with a reflection of a straight object. It seems like the reflection is not excessively warped either way, but looking for confirmation that this is what it should look like:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TWZqnnCZ4MtjCUwVA
- While securing with rivets, the two sheets started to become somewhat divergent, especially when I removed that corner cleco to get better access for riveting (see photo). Somewhere I read to start from the middle and work outward; any problem with what I'm seeing here prior to riveting?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NJmcWsNkRFNdFgbk6
- Pneumatic squeezer riveting with flat set: Photo of shop and factory heads. The gauge seems to show these as measuring appropriately. What can I do to prevent the circular marks on the top of the rivet?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/x9sZFvA2JAC16zVSA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CnmiyrDR1PTkZhdX6
Click to expand...

I agree with finding a Mentor. Questions go away pretty quick.
Dimples look fine in a close up. The reflection test means hold a panel so the dimpled surface is reflecting like a mirror. Best done with the dimple voids up. Look accross at the surface reflection. It shouldn't have imperfections in the reflection. Under dimpled holes show up as a distorted reflection around the hole.

Lock that part down. Either with a cleko or rivet. The more it diverges, the harder to set that last rivet. Buy some automotive windshield washer rubber hose. 1 foot of the two smallest diametee will last forever. Cut a doughnut slughtly thicker than the protruding rivet shank. When you set the rivet, the rubber hose will force the part into place till the rivet holds. Then remove the hose and finish setting.

Pin hole in every rivet is a identifier of type of rivet. It belongs. Also makes a nice punch mark to drill out a rivet later.
 
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