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  #11  
Old 11-26-2017, 05:47 PM
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rongawer rongawer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9 View Post
To make things more complicated, if you use a non-WAAS IFR GPS, you cannot file an alternate airport with only RNAV approaches. You will need a different method of navigation (ie, VOR). So you may be able to buy the GPS cheaper, but will also need to buy a NAV radio.

Chris
I’d like to know what your legal reference is for that. There’s nothing in the FAR’s limiting performing RNAV approaches with a non-WAAS GPS unit. You just cannot do the LPV portion. Here’s a little extra info.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...AV_QFSheet.pdf

While having a WAAS approach GPS is great, it’s not required. There are definitely alternate airport requirements, but nothing that limits you to the type of equipment you have.
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- RV12, N975G, SN 120840, Build in progress...finishing up.
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  #12  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:04 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer View Post
I’d like to know what your legal reference is for that. There’s nothing in the FAR’s limiting performing RNAV approaches with a non-WAAS GPS unit. You just cannot do the LPV portion. Here’s a little extra info.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...AV_QFSheet.pdf

While having a WAAS approach GPS is great, it’s not required. There are definitely alternate airport requirements, but nothing that limits you to the type of equipment you have.
The last time I looked, TSO 129 boxes were only allowed to be used under ifr if alternate navigation (VOR, or maybe NDB(!)) was on-board, and could be used for an instrument approach at either the destination or the alternate (if required). The regulatory reference is buried in FAR 1.1 (definitions), where it says RNAV rules are what the faa says they are in various publications like the AIM. While normally not regulatory, this FAR reference makes the AIM, for RNAV approaches, “regulatory by reference”.
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:12 PM
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rongawer rongawer is offline
 
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Originally Posted by aerovin View Post
The coded IFR database is critical to flying RNAV GPS SIAPs as they were designed. You can build your own and fly them VFR but the training value to replicate flying one out of a database is pretty limited.
I disagree. Assuming you have a current navigation database in your VFR GPS unit, if you want to load the approach waypoints in a VFR navigator and fly the route, it will be the exact same route as provided by an IFR TSO’d unit. You can get very good training this way.
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- RV12, N975G, SN 120840, Build in progress...finishing up.
- BE58, N1975G, stimulating the economy one flight at a time.
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:22 PM
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rongawer rongawer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
The last time I looked, TSO 129 boxes were only allowed to be used under ifr if alternate navigation (VOR, or maybe NDB(!)) was on-board, and could be used for an instrument approach at either the destination or the alternate (if required). The regulatory reference is buried in FAR 1.1 (definitions), where it says RNAV rules are what the faa says they are in various publications like the AIM. While normally not regulatory, this FAR reference makes the AIM, for RNAV approaches, “regulatory by reference”.
Bob, I think you’re trying to refer to the AIM, section 1–1-17 regarding IFR navigation, but you’re really getting off topic. There’s nothing in the AIM or FAR’s that require specific equipment for an alternate approach. You should check out the reference I provided from the FAA.

Paul was asking about whether he could create and fly a procedure in a VFR navigator, and the answer yes - you can. Just not legally under IFR conditions.
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- RV12, N975G, SN 120840, Build in progress...finishing up.
- BE58, N1975G, stimulating the economy one flight at a time.
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  #15  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:32 PM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
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Check out AC-105A, paragraph 9.5.1 which specifically states:

For flight planning purposes, TSO-C129( ) and TSO-C196( ) equipped users
(GPS users) whose navigation systems have fault detection and exclusion
(FDE) capability, who perform a preflight RAIM prediction at the airport
where the RNAV (GPS) approach will be flown, and have proper knowledge
and any required training and/or approval to conduct a GPS-based IAP, may
file based on a GPS-based IAP at either the destination or the alternate airport,
but not at both locations.

Further, my original caution had nothing to do with whether or not he could use a non-waas gps to practice RNAV approaches in VMC - I was suggesting that a non-waas GPS may not be that cost effective considering another NAV source would still be required. That is straight from AIM 1-1-17 2(a)2, as you suggested:

Aircraft using un-augmented GPS for navigation under IFR must be equipped with an alternate approved and operational means of navigation suitable for navigating the proposed route of flight.

Chris
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Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 11-26-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:46 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Ron,
The AIM reference is 1-1-17, subsection 2(a)(2) and 2(a)(3), regarding the availability of non-gps equipment. Of course none of that applies for practice done in vfr conditions.
IMHO setting up a vfr gps box for practice in vmc is of limited value. Once set up, you read the approach chart and follow the needles, like any other approach. 90% of the learning curve is getting the box set up properly. And since they’re all different, doing this on a vfr box is of limited value - unless the button pushing resembles that if a TSO’d box that the pilot intends to transition to.
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  #17  
Old 11-26-2017, 07:01 PM
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pstraub pstraub is offline
 
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Thanks to all for the very informative comments. Like I said, there is a great depth of knowledge out there and I had a feeling there were not any simple answers, but I am taking it all in. Maybe I just need to keep it light and use what I have for practice and/or an emergency.

If I get up the nerve to build an RV-14, then obviously I will need to step up the panel because that is clearly a very IFR capable platform (nothing against the RV-12, I love it and it exceeds its stated mission profile). I really love this discussion and all the different ideas and angles!!
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  #18  
Old 11-26-2017, 10:44 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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Don’t feel bad, Paul. I’m a CFII that has never flown anything but a six pack approach. The prohibitive cost of an IFR GPS with a data base subscription always put me off.
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  #19  
Old 11-26-2017, 11:56 PM
aerovin aerovin is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer View Post
I disagree. Assuming you have a current navigation database in your VFR GPS unit, if you want to load the approach waypoints in a VFR navigator and fly the route, it will be the exact same route as provided by an IFR TSO’d unit. You can get very good training this way.
Yes, your ground track will be the same.

The mechanics of loading the approach with the attendant transition options, the activation of the approach using the correct sequence of button pushing, the changes of modes from enroute to terminal to approach, enabling vertical navigation, the sequencing into the missed approach segment, the changes of scaling of the CDI, the holding pattern entries: not so much.

I guess it depends on what stage of IFR flight the pilot is training for.
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