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  #11  
Old 02-27-2018, 11:17 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Bavafa View Post
I am just dealing with this and it has not been fun. I tried swapping washers method and it was no good, it would put an uneasy preload on the aileron bracket and still had very minimum clearance. The rivets are not the easiest to remove, there is practically no way to push the shaft out so it has to be drilled all the way thru. The first really unhappy feeling during my build on the 14A.
Standard rivet removal techniques work fine in this situation (drilling under sized and driving out with a pin punch) but may require supporting the bracket with the mass of a heavy bucking bar.

Because of the clearance issue a few builders have had, the documentation is being changed to specify flush rivets in the two mentioned locations.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2018, 12:10 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Standard rivet removal techniques work fine in this situation (drilling under sized and driving out with a pin punch) but may require supporting the bracket with the mass of a heavy bucking bar.

Because of the clearance issue a few builders have had, the documentation is being changed to specify flush rivets in the two mentioned locations.
Considering that there is about 1/2" rivet shaft inside the hole, I tried all methods I knew how to get the shaft out, including using a modified C-clamp with a dimple die set, using a dimple die set with the rivet gun and backed by a heavy bucking bar and nut on the other side. No matter how high I raised the air pressure on the gun, the shaft would not budge any. The only choice was to drill it out.
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  #13  
Old 02-27-2018, 12:46 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Bavafa View Post
Considering that there is about 1/2" rivet shaft inside the hole, I tried all methods I knew how to get the shaft out, including using a modified C-clamp with a dimple die set, using a dimple die set with the rivet gun and backed by a heavy bucking bar and nut on the other side. No matter how high I raised the air pressure on the gun, the shaft would not budge any. The only choice was to drill it out.
There are numerous skills related to aircraft construction and maint. that do require learning.
Not being successful, does not always mean it is not possible.
Section 5 of the manual has tips on rivet removal... including long rivets in thick material. The S.B that has instructions for the hinge bracket installation has tips as well.
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  #14  
Old 02-27-2018, 01:22 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
There are numerous skills related to aircraft construction and maint. that do require learning.
Not being successful, does not always mean it is not possible.
Section 5 of the manual has tips on rivet removal... including long rivets in thick material. The S.B that has instructions for the hinge bracket installation has tips as well.
Scott,
I will review section 5 again and if you know of a method to accomplish this task other than what I have already tried, please let me and other know here. It would be a very valuable information to have.
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  #15  
Old 02-27-2018, 02:04 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Drilling the head off of a rivet and then trying to drive it out with a punch or other tool (regardless of the force applied, I.E., rivet gun, etc.) is problematic because the force you are applying is actually trying to further swell the rivet. Just like when it was originally installed. The situation is even worse when it is a long rivet through thick material because it just increases the friction that resists the rivet from sliding out.

If you instead drill off the head as usual, and then drill an undersized hole down the center of the rivet (#40 in the case of an 1/8" rivet) and stop about 1/16" shy of drilling the full dept of the hole, you have a hole that you can drive at the bottom of with a pin punch of appropriate size.

With this process you are stretching the length of the rivet instead of compressing it. The stretching process actually reduces the diameter of the rivet enabling it to more easily slide out of the hole.
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  #16  
Old 02-27-2018, 03:10 PM
Tom Martin Tom Martin is offline
 
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Scott describes the only reliable way to drill out any rivet where there is some length to the rivet. The only requirement is that you drill down through the centre of the rivet. This can prove problematic if the rivet is in an awkward location. Take your time getting things square. If you have problem with that, make a little drilling jig. A chunk of aluminum or hardwood with a end that is exactly 90 degrees. Drill a hole through this small jig and use it as a guide to keep the drill going straight through the part. A piece of a hardwood broom handle for example. The options are endless but the point is that you have to drill through the centre of the rivet to the depth described by Scott. After a few thousand rivets you will no longer need drilling jigs as your eye and hand will "see" and feel, the correct 90 degrees.
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  #17  
Old 02-27-2018, 03:37 PM
mc607 mc607 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post

Because of the clearance issue a few builders have had, the documentation is being changed to specify flush rivets in the two mentioned locations.
Thanks Scott, for following through on this.

Todd
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2018, 06:58 PM
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HAL Pilot HAL Pilot is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
This ever happening in a venue where someone has taken all of Van's plans sheets and publicly posted them without permission and made them accessible by anyone; with Van's having zero control of the content, is rather doubtful.
Scott

I have the Paper trail from Vans and DR giving me the OK to do this. If you wish I can send it to you.

My initial attempt was to try to have a "digital support page" living at vans or VAF and run both by support and users like a WIKI. Vans does not want to do this for legal reasons and I think DR has too much on his Plate.

The problem with the way its done now is if a person buys a thumb drive everything is current the day its shipped, but as revisions and SBs are made it gets harder to keep it up to date. So depending on how long your build is you end up spending more time looking for changes as you get to new parts of the plans.

The Most current Files live in a folder at Vans that is copied onto a thumb drive when needed. Why not skip the thumb drive altogether and have everything online accessible. This cost and cash revenue can be an upgrade that builders can pay for, or just be built into the kit cost.

In a perfect system the "factory" info can reside on a non changeable or non delete-able layer and users can add info on a layer above the factory layer. This gives the factory a free user base that proofreads the plans to enable faster and less labor intense support and plans maintenance. Plus some of the easier answers can be generated by users vs. Support. If support answers go straight to where the issue was happening on the plans page then future builders will never have to ask that question because its already living right where it answers their questions. Thereby hopefully completely eliminating the same question from having to be answered over and over.

There can be a digital divide between users and the company with the Layer idea and appropriate verbiage from some lawyer types thrown in to differentiate the two. In effect this is what is going on with Vans and VAF. This concept just moves it to a visual reference so that builders don't have to search every thread on VAF to see if there is an issue at a particular page/step. As that's what I was doing and I don't have enough brain cells to remember to go back to a certain thread two chapters from now. So I went trough every RV14 thread and put it where it makes sense on the plans. This way I can just see what everyone has said as I get to a page. So In effect it takes Vans wonderfully in-depth plans and adds all the great discussions from VAF right where they are needed. By making it a virtual WIKI users are able to add observations or new threads as they see them being made for particular pages instead of just me.

The Only problem right now with Me making this dropbox account is if I get hit by a car tomorrow and am no longer around there is no continuity to keep this alive. VAF can be sold off to a buyer, but a dropbox account can disappear if only one person "Owns it" because no one would know who to contact to take over for me.

I don't want to take any money from Vans or DR. I am trying to go from a text based system to one that upgrades to visual help. If Vans wants cash from users using my dropbox folder Idea I have no issue with forwarding it from users.

I just ordered a thumb drive because Its easier than trying to update my older CD plans I purchased.

As far as vans having control of the content you have a point there. I will try to take the new thumb drive plans and convert the PDF's to read only but be able to have user input on top. That way no nefarious changes can be made to the instructions. I still use my paper build instructions either way because I add construction notes to them and use a Tablet to help with the VAF topics on each page.
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Last edited by HAL Pilot : 02-28-2018 at 07:00 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-10-2018, 03:54 PM
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bkervaski bkervaski is offline
 
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Quickbuild wings ... I didn't have any clearance issues when I test fit but after I torqued the bolts down I have this issue. I did grind a bit off the top of the two bottom rivets and got it to clear (barely) but it's so close that surely any paint in this area will just grind right off and I only have about 1/16th of manufactured head remaining so apprehensive about grinding any further.

I can probably get the bottom two rivets out per the revised SB (hopefully) but where I'm stuck is how to get a hole countersunk, I can't find an angle to do it manually and neither of my drills with or without the cage will orient flush here.

Any suggestions or advice? (thanks)
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Last edited by bkervaski : 05-10-2018 at 03:58 PM.
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  #20  
Old 05-10-2018, 04:15 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkervaski View Post
Quickbuild wings ... I didn't have any clearance issues when I test fit but after I torqued the bolts down I have this issue. I did grind a bit off the top of the two bottom rivets and got it to clear (barely) but it's so close that surely any paint in this area will just grind right off and I only have about 1/16th of manufactured head remaining so apprehensive about grinding any further.

I can probably get the bottom two rivets out per the revised SB (hopefully) but where I'm stuck is how to get a hole countersunk, I can't find an angle to do it manually and neither of my drills with or without the cage will orient flush here.

Any suggestions or advice? (thanks)
All cutting tools (countersinks, deburring cutters, threaded drill bits, etc.) are 1/4-28 thread so any tool that any of them fit, can take any of the cutting tools.
With care, countersinking can be done without a cage. That gives you the option of using a deburring tool extension in a drill or using an angle drill.
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