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  #1  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:16 PM
jeffw@sc47's Avatar
jeffw@sc47 jeffw@sc47 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
Posts: 142
Default IO-390 Tbolt & Airflow Performance FM-200

I have had to do modifications to the air intake snorkel to fit to the Airflow Perf throttle body, took a good bit of time but not too difficult.

When I got around to fitting the bottom cowling, that's when things got really difficult. The bottom part of the snorkel at the left side of the bottom cowling's center bulge, under the prop spinner, was contacting the cowling. I made a number of modifications to get the snorkel and cowling to clear so that the cowling could come up to where it properly fit behind the spinner backplate.

As a result, the snorkel ended up getting chocked down too much, and contorted a bit, so that the airflow through it became turbulent to the point where it was pulsating; to the point that it will not work properly and the engine would not run well.

HAS ANYONE! installed the Lycoming IO-390 Tbolt with the Airflow Performance FM-200 fuel injection system on their RV14 and gotten as far as fitting the snorkel to the engine and the cowlings through Page 45-06 instructions?

If no issues and everything went fine - I need to talk to you - PLEASE. I am stumped as to why I am having some big no-fit problems.
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Jeff Warren
Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
1946 Bellanca Cruisair 14-13-2 (71 YRS OLD 8/15/17)
RV14A (N14ZT), Ser#140195
Start 10/11/14
IO-390 Lyc Tbolt / CS Hartzell - Currently FWF Kit
Dues paid 11/11/16 (USA 2/67-2/70)
www.mykitlog.com/jeffw@sc47
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2017, 06:47 PM
schristo@mac.com's Avatar
schristo@mac.com schristo@mac.com is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: WA
Posts: 929
Default Works on my -7

That’s the set up I have on my -7.

The fit is close and I carved out the honeycomb and reinforced the glass to gain some additional clearance.

For the snorkel, I cut it in two and fit each end independently... then rejoined the sections in place. Doing this gave the most flexiblity in getting the best clearance from the cowling.

I also cut off the flange of the snorkel at the throttle body and glassed a clean recess to closely slip fit the throttle body keeping the snorkel close to minimize interference.
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Stephen

RV7 powered by a lycoming thunderbolt IO-390
turning a whirlwind HRT prop

flying with more than 1,650 on the hobbs
Race 771
margarita!
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  #3  
Old 09-27-2017, 07:46 AM
JHartline JHartline is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Carrollton, GA 5GA2
Posts: 154
Default I wish I had a solution...

I'll be at that point before too long. I received a FN-150 versus the 200. Wondering if there is a difference in the dimensions.
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James Hartline
Carrollton, GA 5GA2
RV-14 - Finish and FWF in progress
T-Bolt IO-390
Maule MX7-180
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  #4  
Old 09-27-2017, 08:48 AM
jeffw@sc47's Avatar
jeffw@sc47 jeffw@sc47 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
Posts: 142
Default Recommend you hold off with mods to snorkel right now

I recommend that you hold off a bit with any modification of the snorkel and cowling until I get this partially or wholly figured out; your call. You may not have the same issues I am having as I think that the FM-150 is a throttle body model that is a clone or very similar to the Precision Air (Bendix style) unit.

I am communicating with Van's to see what assistance they can provide. I have checked with another 14A builder who has been flying theirs for around 100 hours - they used the Avstar fuel injection (Bendix style) throttle body and did not need to shorten the snorkel, and it cleared the cowling with some minor sanding on the bottom of the snorkel as well as building up a small area at the filter box area. This need to shorten the snorkel is perplexing as is the need to adjust for clearance to the bottom cowl.

I have checked with Lycoming and they confirm that the oil sump, warn air induction, is identical on the stock 390 and the 390-Tbolt.

The newest possibility suggested is that in the past year or so the vendor supplier of the snorkel may have changed and/or the design of the snorkel that altered the fit and clearances.

I have ordered another snorkel to see if that helps me figure this out.

Stay tuned.
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Jeff Warren
Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
1946 Bellanca Cruisair 14-13-2 (71 YRS OLD 8/15/17)
RV14A (N14ZT), Ser#140195
Start 10/11/14
IO-390 Lyc Tbolt / CS Hartzell - Currently FWF Kit
Dues paid 11/11/16 (USA 2/67-2/70)
www.mykitlog.com/jeffw@sc47

Last edited by jeffw@sc47 : 09-27-2017 at 09:05 AM.
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  #5  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:01 PM
TS Flightlines TS Flightlines is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ridgeland, SC
Posts: 1,863
Default

Jeff----be sure and let us know the outcome---inquiring minds want to know.
Tom
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Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
Proud Vendor for RV1, Donator to VAF
RV7 Tail Kit Completed, Fuse started-Pay as I go Plan
Ridgeland, SC
www.tsflightlines.com
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:42 PM
Ron B. Ron B. is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,094
Default

I have the AvStar on mine and I certainly thought I would have to modify it in order to install . I kept playing around with it and pushing (very small amount) it up against the mount bolts and it was a very tight fit around the starter but there was air visible between all parts.
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RV-10 SOLD
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2017, 05:33 PM
jeffw@sc47's Avatar
jeffw@sc47 jeffw@sc47 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
Posts: 142
Default 9/27/17 Update

In Van's RV-14 kit documentation Section 2-02 it states that the firewall forward kits have been vetted for the Lycoming IO-390-A3B6.

SELECTING AN ENGINE FOR THE RV-14/14A
The RV-14/14A was designed and vetted using the following engines:

Lycoming IO-390-A3B6 Lycoming IO-360-A1D6.

The IO-390 engine is comparatively new and is found almost exclusively in the experimental market. It has not had the need or time to mutate into the bewildering variety of versions that older Lycoming designs have achieved. The version Van's Aircraft sells – the IO-390A3B6 – is configured with a standard Lycoming sump, Bendix-style injection, Slick magnetos and a forward mounted propeller governor.

The RV-14 Powerplant Kit will work well with aircraft engines which are:

- Four-cylinder - Horizontally opposed - Horizontally inducted - Fuel injected - Angle valve - Normally aspirated
- Equipped with a forward mounted propeller governor. See Figure 1.
- Equipped with a standard Lycoming style oil sump.
- Rated between 200-220 horsepower.

Some IO-360s have been removed from aerobatic airplanes and are equipped with different sumps and induction systems.

Van's Aircraft has not investigated the installation of any such engine. It is recommend that builders contemplating installing one of these engines in an RV-14/14A perform serious research before purchasing.

There are several companies building Lycoming “clones” – engines similar to, but not identical to, the Lycoming. These engines can come in almost any configuration the buyer wishes. Van’s Aircraft has not investigated which, if any, of the many available versions might work in the RV-14/14A.
The only engine that Van’s Aircraft currently sells that meets the RV-14 engine criteria is the IO-390-A3B6.


I had not made a particular note of these disclaimers. I based my decision to go with the Tbolt and the option for the AFP FM-200 fuel injection on Van's and Lycoming's 2016 SnF published flyers that I believed included these selections. It was not completely apparent to me in reviewing the sales flyers that these issues might occur.

In Vans' defense, they do a super job in the R&D, design, manufacturing, and customer support of some very sophisticated aircraft kits. Their achilles heel, as the kits get more and more user friendly, is that us customer builders come to expect that all of the pieces will go together perfectly and with no problems. The lesson here is that if you deviate in the slightest way from the provided parts and the instructions - you are experimenting. It is an EXPERIMENTAL airplane, and you tend to forget that because the kit, especially the 14, is so incredibly advanced.

So, at this point here is what I believe has caused my issues and what else I know now.

Lycoming has told me that the Thunderbolt is precisely the same engine that are the standard engines that Van's supports; it is tweeked on the inside via a bit more attention to assembly, fit and balance, and offered in a few more exterior paint schemes. The exterior dimensions and arrangements are the same. Engine is not the cause of problems.

I think now, before I can confirm this after I get a new snorkel and refit it to an AvStar throttle body, that I did not fit it first using a AvStar unit to observe and record the position of the snorkel relative to the engine and particularly - the starter. I may have let the snorkel drop down a bit too far below the starter and too close to the cowling. This has become apparent as a few responses by VAF members and folks at Van's report that the clearance to the starter is very close.

I should have the replacement snorkel by early next week and be able to make this test fit.
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Jeff Warren
Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
1946 Bellanca Cruisair 14-13-2 (71 YRS OLD 8/15/17)
RV14A (N14ZT), Ser#140195
Start 10/11/14
IO-390 Lyc Tbolt / CS Hartzell - Currently FWF Kit
Dues paid 11/11/16 (USA 2/67-2/70)
www.mykitlog.com/jeffw@sc47

Last edited by jeffw@sc47 : 09-27-2017 at 05:42 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-27-2017, 05:52 PM
Tom023 Tom023 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 180
Default

Keep us updated Jeff, I have the same combination arriving next month.
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RV14A #83
Wings, empennage and fuselage completed
Finish kit in progress
IO-390 Thunderbolt ordered
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2017, 10:34 AM
jeffw@sc47's Avatar
jeffw@sc47 jeffw@sc47 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
Posts: 142
Default Update

Just remounted the lower cowling after fitting a new snorkel to the filter box and the Bendix throttle body that I acquired (same as the Precision Air or the AFP FM-150). The Bendix unit is 5 1/2" long; so without a body unit a block of wood or hard foam block could be a substitute.

All appears to fit nicely. Viewed the lower cowling to snorkel clearances with a snake video inspection camera and the clearances are about 1/2” at the nearest points.

The key to fitting these is now a lot clearer. By attaching the Bendix throttle body and then fitting the snorkel to it and making the first fits to the filter frame and clecoing that together; and getting the clearance between the top of the snorkel and the starter as close as possible (about 3/32” - 1/8”).

There is a small area on the back side of the snorkel near the filter frame where it slightly touches the intake manifold pipe to cylinder #2 that will be a minor adjustment, probably cut a small divot out of the snorkel and a re-glass to fit to clear.

Next then - to cut off the snorkel flange that attaches to the Bendix throttle body and glass in the 3 1/2” diameter x 1.25” long fiberglas pipe that will align and connect to the Airflow Performance FM-200.

The FM-200 is 6” long, plus you have to install an adapter piece that is 3/4” thick (plus two gaskets each side) between the FM-200 and the oil sump induction inlet. So you’re dealing with the throttle body that is 1 1/4”+ longer overall.

Now that I have the snorkel-to-filter frame attachment well set (temporarily with clecos) and some good documented dimensions and pics of the snorkel fitting to the throttle body, the fitting to the FM-200 should end up with good clearances to the cowling. This what I lacked having when I did the initial snorkel modifications and fitting.
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Jeff Warren
Simpsonville, SC (SC47)
1946 Bellanca Cruisair 14-13-2 (71 YRS OLD 8/15/17)
RV14A (N14ZT), Ser#140195
Start 10/11/14
IO-390 Lyc Tbolt / CS Hartzell - Currently FWF Kit
Dues paid 11/11/16 (USA 2/67-2/70)
www.mykitlog.com/jeffw@sc47
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2017, 11:34 AM
Av8rRob's Avatar
Av8rRob Av8rRob is online now
 
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Posts: 161
Default

Any chance posting photos of the problem and your solution?
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Rv-14 Fuse
Paid nov 2016
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