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  #1  
Old 09-19-2017, 07:36 AM
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Default Aileron weight?

Question: does anyone know what an aileron weighs for an RV-8? Does anyone know how much the aileron counter weights weigh?
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Matt Giordano Sr. and Jr.
RV-8 - N861MM
Wilmington, DE

Last edited by flyenforfun : 09-22-2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Added a word
  #2  
Old 09-19-2017, 11:29 AM
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Default RV-8 Aileron weight of Counterweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyenforfun View Post
Question: does anyone know what an aileron weighs for an RV-8? Does anyone know how much the aileron counter weights weigh?
3.4 pounds for one of the aileron counterweights.

I have the parts to build both ailerons at home. Just grabbed two weights out of the garage and weighted them on my digital scale. Weight of both divided by two is listed above.
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  #3  
Old 09-19-2017, 11:36 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
3.4 pounds for one of the aileron counterweights.

I have the parts to build both ailerons at home. Just grabbed two weights out of the garage and weighted them on my digital scale. Weight of both divided by two is listed above.
Ok thanks. I'm wondering if the weight might have something to do with my heavy wing. I'm debating removing them and weighing them.
Thanks again.
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Matt Giordano Sr. and Jr.
RV-8 - N861MM
Wilmington, DE
  #4  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:16 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyenforfun View Post
Ok thanks. I'm wondering if the weight might have something to do with my heavy wing. I'm debating removing them and weighing them.
Thanks again.
Most unlikely. In the past 20-years, many of the heavy wing RVs have had either improper formed trailing edge on the aileron or the aileron not being aligned correctly. Some guys have replaced the steel A-406/7-L/R and others have slotted it so that the ailerons are part of the correct airfoil shape. Line up the stick so the ailerons are in level flight then go stand in front of the airplane sighting along the bottom wing skin. The Ailerons should not be hanging down in the slipstream.

Scott may know more of what the factory has seen. I am reporting what I have seen.
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NC25 RV-6
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Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
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  #5  
Old 09-19-2017, 01:12 PM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyenforfun View Post
Ok thanks. I'm wondering if the weight might have something to do with my heavy wing. I'm debating removing them and weighing them.
Thanks again.
As other have posted - not your problem.

I've worked serveral RVs with a heavy wing. It has never been caused by aileron trailing edge issues (so any squeezing is just treating the symptom, not the problem).

I've posted on this in the past, as have others, but here is the short version:
- Do not rely on the bell crank gig, it just gets you in the ball park.
- Defer wing tip install until after the wings are on and all other control surfaces are perfectly rigged. The wingtip trailing edge can be moved up/down an inch so doing this before everything else is done yields unwanted results.
- Get the flaps rigged. Are they really fully up? Go look at other well built RVs to see what "fully up" looks like.
- Now adjust the aileron pushrods so that both aileron trailing edges line up with the flap trailing edge. I also use the wing template that was stenciled on my old RV-8A slow build crate to verify the ailerons are really in trail.
- With the ailerons locked into trail, now go look for the leading offenders of a heavy wing - the aileron brackets. Is the gap between the top of the ailieron and wing skin the same across the aileron - and the same with the other aileron? Use a straight edge across the wing and aileron to measure the trailing edge gap with the straight edge. It is the same across the aileron and the same as the other aileron?
If any of the above measurements fail (and it is not because you have a twist in a flap or aileron), it is time to rehang the aileron. I think Van's still sells the non-drilled aileraon brackets for this purpose. If you have a good welder they can fill the hole and you can re-drill but the no hole brackets are cheap.

After all this is done, then and only then fit the wing tip.

Carl
  #6  
Old 09-19-2017, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
As other have posted - not your problem.

I've worked serveral RVs with a heavy wing. It has never been caused by aileron trailing edge issues (so any squeezing is just treating the symptom, not the problem).

I've posted on this in the past, as have others, but here is the short version:
- Do not rely on the bell crank gig, it just gets you in the ball park.
- Defer wing tip install until after the wings are on and all other control surfaces are perfectly rigged. The wingtip trailing edge can be moved up/down an inch so doing this before everything else is done yields unwanted results.
- Get the flaps rigged. Are they really fully up? Go look at other well built RVs to see what "fully up" looks like.
- Now adjust the aileron pushrods so that both aileron trailing edges line up with the flap trailing edge. I also use the wing template that was stenciled on my old RV-8A slow build crate to verify the ailerons are really in trail.
- With the ailerons locked into trail, now go look for the leading offenders of a heavy wing - the aileron brackets. Is the gap between the top of the ailieron and wing skin the same across the aileron - and the same with the other aileron? Use a straight edge across the wing and aileron to measure the trailing edge gap with the straight edge. It is the same across the aileron and the same as the other aileron?
If any of the above measurements fail (and it is not because you have a twist in a flap or aileron), it is time to rehang the aileron. I think Van's still sells the non-drilled aileraon brackets for this purpose. If you have a good welder they can fill the hole and you can re-drill but the no hole brackets are cheap.

After all this is done, then and only then fit the wing tip.

Carl
If you search this website under heavy wings you will find this problem exist multiple times and all of these things squeezing trailing edges, raising and lowering hinges, raising and lowering wingtips and flaps, they are all Band-Aids don't completely work most of the time. I think the root cause has not been found most people give up and just live with the defect. I'm trying to think outside the box a little bit and start looking at other things to try to find a more complete solution. I wanted to look at the counter weights that go in the aileron as a possible problem area. I build them along time ago and I don't quite remember if I weighed them or if i was supposed to weigh them. At any rate I have to take the Left aileron off for another reason I thought I would weigh it while it was off.
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RV-8 - N861MM
Wilmington, DE
  #7  
Old 09-19-2017, 05:13 PM
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So are you saying this way is better than the way the plans have you line up the aileron trailing edge with the tooling holes in the wing rib? and bell crank jig to adjust push rod to lock in this position?
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  #8  
Old 09-19-2017, 06:32 PM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bret View Post
So are you saying this way is better than the way the plans have you line up the aileron trailing edge with the tooling holes in the wing rib? and bell crank jig to adjust push rod to lock in this position?
Great way to get things in the ball park. Once done, then do what I said to check your work and to look for the other issues that tend to ruin your day.

Carl
  #9  
Old 09-19-2017, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bret View Post
So are you saying this way is better than the way the plans have you line up the aileron trailing edge with the tooling holes in the wing rib? and bell crank jig to adjust push rod to lock in this position?
No not at all I am saying I have done all that and it hasn't worked so I am trying to explore other options
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Matt Giordano Sr. and Jr.
RV-8 - N861MM
Wilmington, DE
  #10  
Old 09-19-2017, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
Great way to get things in the ball park. Once done, then do what I said to check your work and to look for the other issues that tend to ruin your day.

Carl
I will I will re-check what I have already checked twice before I am determined to find the key to this problem.it reminds me of back in the days when I used to work in the car dealership cars would come in with a rough idle running a little lean, so what is the first thing you do? You richen the mixture right? It makes sense so you do that and the problem doesn't go away so then what do you do? You increase the idle to overcome the rough idle because of the pour mixture . Although sometimes that would work or partially the real problem was that you had a vacuum leak if you find the vacuum leak setting the mixture correctly will be no problem . Do you see what I'm saying? We are turning up the idol because we can't find the vacuum leak . I WANT FIND THAT VACUME LEAK! ( metaphorically speaking )
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RV-8 - N861MM
Wilmington, DE
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