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  #21  
Old 10-04-2017, 07:56 AM
F1Boss's Avatar
F1Boss F1Boss is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 605
Default upgrade kit - that's not all:

"Red 5606 dribbling everywhere."

Make sure you are using the latest upgrade of brake fluid (if you use aircraft stuff - 5606H/Royco 756 @$14/qt?) - or switch to Mobil 1 ATF which meets the specs of the A/C fluid (220C flash point), but is available at your local Wal-Mart (less expensive - $3/qt?, no HAZMAT shipping etc). Also switch to the better O rings - Buna-N/Viton material seems to be about the best at 400F rating.

Get your O-rings here:
https://www.oringsusa.com/index.html
Might keep a spare set of O-rings in the plane. Getting the fluid is easy.

Mobil 1 ATF specs:
https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-tr.../synthetic-atf

Royco specs:
http://anderol.com/deployedfiles/Che...0Datasheet.pdf

Best,
Mark
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:23 AM
9GT's Avatar
9GT 9GT is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
Posts: 1,188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Boss View Post
"Red 5606 dribbling everywhere."

Make sure you are using the latest upgrade of brake fluid (if you use aircraft stuff - 5606H/Royco 756 @$14/qt?) - or switch to Mobil 1 ATF which meets the specs of the A/C fluid (220C flash point), but is available at your local Wal-Mart (less expensive - $3/qt?, no HAZMAT shipping etc). Also switch to the better O rings - Buna-N/Viton material seems to be about the best at 400F rating.

Get your O-rings here:
https://www.oringsusa.com/index.html
Might keep a spare set of O-rings in the plane. Getting the fluid is easy.

Mobil 1 ATF specs:
https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-tr.../synthetic-atf

Royco specs:
http://anderol.com/deployedfiles/Che...0Datasheet.pdf

Best,
Mark
You wouldn't happen to have a part number for the O rings would you Mark?
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Howell, MI

RV-9A: Under Construction
RV-10: N959RV Completed 12/29/2013 SOLD 08/23/2016

"Donor Exempt" but donated through Dec. 2017
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  #23  
Old 10-08-2017, 08:05 PM
maus92 maus92 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whd721 View Post
Gasman,

I think I have assembled my upgrade kit, discs are in hand, bolts here and I have Al 1/8" stock is waiting fabrication. The Arbor Shims arrive tomorrow.

One last question how did you adjust to insert the cotter key back, trim the VA-106 or re-drill the hole?
Let us know how you did. I got the shims from Grainger in a day, but the Rapco disk is B.O. from both east and west ACS (I checked last week and they were in stock: must be a lot of lurkers following this thread )

Question about the shims: do they simply slide onto the axle first / inboard of the wheel?
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2000 RV-8A | O-360, FP, G3X Touch, VP-X, EarthX
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  #24  
Old 10-08-2017, 09:12 PM
gasman gasman is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maus92 View Post
Let us know how you did. I got the shims from Grainger in a day, but the Rapco disk is B.O. from both east and west ACS (I checked last week and they were in stock: must be a lot of lurkers following this thread )

Question about the shims: do they simply slide onto the axle first / inboard of the wheel?
Yes.... but first coat them with bearing grease. After you confirm nothing is rubbing, measure the shim then shave, grind or machine that same amount (thickness) of the shim off the face of the nut.
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  #25  
Old 10-08-2017, 10:34 PM
whd721 whd721 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 204
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Hi Guys,

I must have gotten the last Rapcos. I ordered Rapco 164-09900s and received them in three days.
I installed new brake liners and the discs today. I used teflon pipe dope on the AN fittings, o-ring lube on the piston/o-rings and anti seize on the anchor bolts.

I had to leave before I could bleed the lines and test everything.


Tomorrow.....
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RV9A
Sherwood, Oregon
As Bill Stout (designer of the Ford Trimotor) used to say, “Simplicate and add Lightness”
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  #26  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:42 PM
whd721 whd721 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 204
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In early September, I Discovered the importance of two working brakes in a RV9A. I taxied up to the hold short line, stepped on the brakes and started doing left donuts.
The O-Ring had overheated and assumed a square section, thus dribbling red.
This is my upgrade installation, first brake job, based mostly on this forum in bits and pieces and the Cleveland publications.
I hope others find it helpful.

The Discs:
-The Cleveland upgrade kit is a Cleveland upgrade Kit 199-93 contains every thing you need (I Think) for $ 674 from ACS.
-The Van’s Original Replacement Cleveland disc is a 164-01700 $169 from ACS. The Disc is 0.182” thick new and fails at 0.167” min.
-The upgrade Rapco disc is a 164-09900 $98.50 from ACS. The Disc is 0.295” thick new and fails at 0.275” min.
-The difference between the Cleveland disc and the Rapco disc is 0.295- 0.182= 0.113 ~= to 0.125 for the shim.

The Brake Assembly
-Matco Brake liners are 0.186 thick new and 0.100 thick min.
-Use Dow Corning #55 o-ring lube for the piston o-ring.
-Use locktite C5A anti seize for the anchor bolts.
-Use Arbor Shim 0.0620 x 1.25 ID x 1.750 OD PN# 5GA99 from Grainger
-Use Bleeder valve cap PN# 183 00100 from ACS
-O-Ring MS28775-218 $0.49/ea from ACS

INFO
-Parker Hannifin Corp.
1-800-272-7537
-Cleveland Wheel and Brake Product catalog
Pub Number AWBPC0001-20/USA


Tools Used
-Brake Fluid Reservoir vent. 7/16” Wrench.
-My brake fluid drain tube with AN fittings 1/2” & 9/16” Wrenchs.
-Brake assembly Bleed Fitting 1/4” 6 Point box end combination Wrench. Use the six Point end only to tighten and break loose the Bleed fitting. It is tiny.
-VA-106 Axle Nut. 1 1/2” Socket.
Backplate Bolts 7/16” Wrench.

The Procedure
-Remove the brake Assembly and one Wheel using your preferred jacking method.
-Let the air out of the tire.
-I used for wooden stakes and four bar clamps to hold the wheel assembly together, while removing the three bolts holding the wheel and disc together. Replace the disc with the new disc.
-Lube the Axle and install arbor shims and slide the wheel back on. Vans wants 0.032 to 0.094” gap between the disc and U-810 (The inside Main Wheel Fairing support plate). Add or remove shims to achieve the gap.
-Reinstall the Axle Nut and adjust by sanding the inside end to allow the Cotter key to be reinserted.
-Make two 1/8” Al spacer to the shape of the machined surface on the Back Plate.
-Lube the o-ring, piston and cyl with the o-ring lube.
-Lube the Anchor bolts and the anchor bolt holes with the anti seize.
-Use a 3/16” dowel to insert through the top bolt hole, the shim and the back plate. This will hold that assembly in place while starting the lower bolt into the backing plate. The top bolt is then easy to install.
-Bolt torque for Backplates 75-80 inch-lbs.
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RV9A
Sherwood, Oregon
As Bill Stout (designer of the Ford Trimotor) used to say, “Simplicate and add Lightness”
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2017, 08:31 AM
maus92 maus92 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whd721 View Post
In early September, I Discovered the importance of two working brakes in a RV9A. I taxied up to the hold short line, stepped on the brakes and started doing left donuts.
The O-Ring had overheated and assumed a square section, thus dribbling red.
This is my upgrade installation, first brake job, based mostly on this forum in bits and pieces and the Cleveland publications.
I hope others find it helpful.

The Discs:
-The Cleveland upgrade kit is a Cleveland upgrade Kit 199-93 contains every thing you need (I Think) for $ 674 from ACS.
-The Van’s Original Replacement Cleveland disc is a 164-01700 $169 from ACS. The Disc is 0.182” thick new and fails at 0.167” min.
-The upgrade Rapco disc is a 164-09900 $98.50 from ACS. The Disc is 0.295” thick new and fails at 0.275” min.
-The difference between the Cleveland disc and the Rapco disc is 0.295- 0.182= 0.113 ~= to 0.125 for the shim.

The Brake Assembly
-Matco Brake liners are 0.186 thick new and 0.100 thick min.
-Use Dow Corning #55 o-ring lube for the piston o-ring.
-Use locktite C5A anti seize for the anchor bolts.
-Use Arbor Shim 0.0620 x 1.25 ID x 1.750 OD PN# 5GA99 from Grainger
-Use Bleeder valve cap PN# 183 00100 from ACS
-O-Ring MS28775-218 $0.49/ea from ACS

INFO
-Parker Hannifin Corp.
1-800-272-7537
-Cleveland Wheel and Brake Product catalog
Pub Number AWBPC0001-20/USA


Tools Used
-Brake Fluid Reservoir vent. 7/16” Wrench.
-My brake fluid drain tube with AN fittings 1/2” & 9/16” Wrenchs.
-Brake assembly Bleed Fitting 1/4” 6 Point box end combination Wrench. Use the six Point end only to tighten and break loose the Bleed fitting. It is tiny.
-VA-106 Axle Nut. 1 1/2” Socket.
Backplate Bolts 7/16” Wrench.

The Procedure
-Remove the brake Assembly and one Wheel using your preferred jacking method.
-Let the air out of the tire.
-I used for wooden stakes and four bar clamps to hold the wheel assembly together, while removing the three bolts holding the wheel and disc together. Replace the disc with the new disc.
-Lube the Axle and install arbor shims and slide the wheel back on. Vans wants 0.032 to 0.094” gap between the disc and U-810 (The inside Main Wheel Fairing support plate). Add or remove shims to achieve the gap.
-Reinstall the Axle Nut and adjust by sanding the inside end to allow the Cotter key to be reinserted.
-Make two 1/8” Al spacer to the shape of the machined surface on the Back Plate.
-Lube the o-ring, piston and cyl with the o-ring lube.
-Lube the Anchor bolts and the anchor bolt holes with the anti seize.
-Use a 3/16” dowel to insert through the top bolt hole, the shim and the back plate. This will hold that assembly in place while starting the lower bolt into the backing plate. The top bolt is then easy to install.
-Bolt torque for Backplates 75-80 inch-lbs.
I performed the Vitron O-ring upgrade after blowing out the right main brake a couple years ago - no problems since. I rebuilt the master cylinders last year because one was leaking significantly. The rebuild kit replaces the internal spring which eliminated my need for external return spring mod. The rebuild also replaces the shaft, which apparently is a wear item. Mine had a noticeable wear area that you could feel, which I think was causing the leak. Unfortunately another very small leak has developed, so I'm considering replacing the master cylinders with Grove units at some point. And I'm going to look the the geometry of the setup once again.

I currently have the right main off to replace the tire, and I was hoping to do the brake discs at the same time, but unfortunately ACS is out-of-stock on the fatter disc. I'm going to call them today to get an ETA on the parts. I did notice that the brake disc has a hint of bluing on the body which I'll attribute to heat - not sure about that though. I'll try to get a photo that shows the discoloration.The tires come from Wilkerson tomorrow. I have another set enroute from Desser, ETA Friday.

Did you fabricate a brake caliper shim? Some people mention an ~1/8 spacer between the cylinder and the back plate.

You are using the Matco pads vs. Rapco? Reason? I have both; the Matcos are noticeably thinner. Rapcos are currently installed and still have life. (I repack the bearings and reline the brakes at every annual / CI because its cheap and easy insurance, mainly because I'm a heavy brake user.)
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2000 RV-8A | O-360, FP, G3X Touch, VP-X, EarthX
Eastern Shore | KESN

Last edited by maus92 : 10-10-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:44 AM
whd721 whd721 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 204
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I did not use the Vitron o-rings because I could never find a specific spec for a correct Vitron o-ring. Lots of posters recommend them, but no PN#, brand or spec. The stock o-rings are about $1 per pair ( plus $8 for shipping). I put them back in and plan to change at every annual.

I use the Matco liners because ACS sent them when I tried to order replacement liners for the stock Clevelands. I did that early before I had started to dig into brake upgrades.

I looked up the Matco rebuild kit on ACS. They did not show a replacement shaft is there a different kit number for that?

I built the two shims from 1/8" aluminum stock, match drilled them to the back plate, rough cut on my band saw then used a belt sander to grind to shape. The top curve of the belt sander is the only way I could see to grind the inside curve that matches the disc curve.

The Cleveland parts list for the 199-93 upgrade shows that the only difference in the stock brakes I received from Vans and the upgrade are the thicker disc and the ~ 1/8" shim. The Cleveland kit is $674 from ACS, the Rapco discs are $200 plus scrap Aluminum and My time, I went for cheaper.
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RV9A
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As Bill Stout (designer of the Ford Trimotor) used to say, “Simplicate and add Lightness”
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:13 PM
maus92 maus92 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whd721 View Post
I did not use the Vitron o-rings because I could never find a specific spec for a correct Vitron o-ring. Lots of posters recommend them, but no PN#, brand or spec. The stock o-rings are about $1 per pair ( plus $8 for shipping). I put them back in and plan to change at every annual.

I use the Matco liners because ACS sent them when I tried to order replacement liners for the stock Clevelands. I did that early before I had started to dig into brake upgrades.

I looked up the Matco rebuild kit on ACS. They did not show a replacement shaft is there a different kit number for that?

I built the two shims from 1/8" aluminum stock, match drilled them to the back plate, rough cut on my band saw then used a belt sander to grind to shape. The top curve of the belt sander is the only way I could see to grind the inside curve that matches the disc curve.

The Cleveland parts list for the 199-93 upgrade shows that the only difference in the stock brakes I received from Vans and the upgrade are the thicker disc and the ~ 1/8" shim. The Cleveland kit is $674 from ACS, the Rapco discs are $200 plus scrap Aluminum and My time, I went for cheaper.
The replacement shaft came directly from Matco. I pulled this part number from the invoice: MCMC4F-1 - SHAFT; MC-4F. Not part of the rebuild kit - I remembered incorrectly; I purchased it separately.

http://www.matcomfg.com/SHAFTMC4F-idv-3079-46.html

The Viton O-rings came from O-Rings USA www.oringsusa.com . The part number (really a description) from the invoice: AS568 Viton® 75 Black

10 x -218 V75 (1-1/4 ID X 1-1/2 OD X 1/8 W) (1) = $4.10 The leading 10 is the quantity I ordered. So 218 V75 is the size, and $0.41 each. I got the info somewhere on this site back in 2014. The price went up 5 cents since then.

The brake discs are going to be drop shipped directly from Rapco - 10 to 14 days. Ugh.
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2000 RV-8A | O-360, FP, G3X Touch, VP-X, EarthX
Eastern Shore | KESN

Last edited by maus92 : 10-10-2017 at 11:03 PM.
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