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  #1  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:03 PM
JDRhodes JDRhodes is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Taylorsville, GA
Posts: 748
Default Grumman AA1A vs. RV-12

I really like the RV-12 concept. At the local airport yesterday, I found myself looking at a Grumman / American AA1A 2 seat Trainer / Lynx and couldnít help but compare the two aircraft.

The most obvious difference is that the AA1 does not qualify as an LSA due to its MGTW of 1500 lbs. and itís stall speed of 51 kts. The RV-12, of course was specifically designed to meet these requirements.

Other comparisons; AA1A vs. RV-12:
Engine: Lyc O-235 (108HP) vs. Rotax 912 (100HP)
Useful Load (typical): 493 vs. 580 lbs.
Wingspan: 25.5 vs. 26.9 feet
Usable Fuel: 24 vs. 20 gal
Full Fuel Payload: 349 vs. 460 lbs
Wing Loading: 12.6 vs. 10.4 lbs/ sq ft
Power Loading: 15 vs. 13.2 lbs /hp
Cabin Width: 41 vs. 43 inches
Cabin height: 45 vs. 41 inches
Baggage area capacity: 100 vs. 50 lbs.
Fuel location: wings vs. fuselage
Canopy Operation: slider (can be opened in flight) vs. tipper
Control System: yoke vs. stick
Cruise Speed: 132 mph vs 131 mph
Range with reserve: 350 miles vs. 458 miles
Fuel Consumption: 5.7 gph vs. 4.7 gph
Rate of Climb: 765 Ft / Min. vs. 900 Ft / Min.
Takeoff Roll: 700 Ft vs. 700 Ft.
Landing Roll: 395 Ft. vs. 525 Ft.

As you can see, the RV-12 is a LITTLE better in most categories. Arguably, a lot better in rate of climb. And Ė itís an LSA and has removable wings. But, where does the little Grumman shine?
Purchase Price: $20,000 vs. $70,000 - $80,000
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RV-9, 7 - going fast
BC-12D - going slow
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:09 PM
aerovin aerovin is offline
 
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Location: Lincoln, CA
Posts: 136
Default

Of course, there is also 35+ years old and engine of unknown history and old avionics vs. brand new.
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:33 PM
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Bill_H Bill_H is offline
 
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Location: Peel, AR
Posts: 1,767
Default

I love the sporty handling (for a commercial plane) of the AA1A (have time in them) and the sliding canopy. Should be cheap to maintain, but remember - you can't do the work yourself. And just imagine the bureaucratic headaches if you wanted to replace the instruments with Skyview or something similar.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:43 PM
aerhed aerhed is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Big Sandy, WY
Posts: 2,567
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RV12 AA1A
Construction
Riveted / Glued
Designer
VANS / Northrop
Cool
Yes / Not so much

Although..... a 160hp yankme with a tailwheel kit goes pretty darn good.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:53 PM
yankee-flyer yankee-flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 838
Wink Yankee Take-off

I owned/flew an AA-1 (original, S/N 0038) Yankee for 13 years and 775 hours before building the -12. It's a great, fun airplane to fly; in fact, my primary reason for choosing the -12 was that in the air its control forces are very much like the Yankee.
BUT: whoever told you that it will get off the ground in 700 feet, climb at 765 fpm, and land in 395 feet was smoking something REALLY good. Flying from the same airport, with the same load (me plus fuel) the -12 is off the ground in about 1/3 the space, has 50%-75% better climb rate, and lands a WHOLE lot shorter. The only way you'll stop a Yankee in 395 feet is if there's a BIG hole at 394 feet!
The Yankee's BOOK pattern speeds are 85 mph on downwind and crosswind, slowing to 80 on final and keeping that airspeed until you passed the numbers. If you slowed much below 80, you'd better be real close to the ground. My personal limits in the summer were a minimum paved field length of 2000 feet (2500 with obstacles) and 3000 grass. Like I said, I'm conservative, but I never bent the airplane!
Another point; the O-235 doesn't like 100 LL and running hot. In 775 hours I re-built one cylinder twice and two others once.
But flying with the canopy open an inch or so was nice. Maximum in-flight opening was 13 inches and there was a LOT of buffet (and a lot more drag) at that point. Still, I wish the -12 had a slider option!!
The only comparative negative I've found is that the -12 bounces around in turbulence a lot more. Lower wing loading, higher aspect ratio, and a different airfoil all make for a much sharper-edged gust response..

Wayne 120214/143WM (Ex AA-1 99DR)
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:54 PM
JDRhodes JDRhodes is offline
 
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Location: Taylorsville, GA
Posts: 748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerovin View Post
Of course, there is also 35+ years old and engine of unknown history and old avionics vs. brand new.
You could do a LOT of engine, airframe and avionics work with the $50K price delta.
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RV-9, 7 - going fast
BC-12D - going slow
jrhodes@v1salesmgt.com
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  #7  
Old 11-04-2011, 01:19 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,366
Default Gotta go along with Yankee-Flyer!

The Grumman AA1A is a ground lover. The AA1B might be a little better due to the flat bottom airfoil, but still nowhere near the RV-12.
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Specializing in Amateur-Built and Light-Sport Aircraft
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
North Texas (8TA5)
RV-6 Flying since 1993, 172hp O-320, 3-Blade Catto (since 2003)Sold
Legend Cub purchased 12/2017
FRIEND of the RV-1
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2011, 01:30 PM
JDRhodes JDRhodes is offline
 
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Location: Taylorsville, GA
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angle of climb is important, too. The Yankee's (lower) best rate of climb is probably 10-15 mph faster than the -12's. So you're covering a lot more ground AND not climbing as fast. That makes a big difference when you're trying to get over the trees on the hill that's a mile away. And yes -the AA1 B and C's are a lot better.

Yankee's still cool, though. It's the first airplane my Dad had when I was a kid. He canabalized the engine for his Long EZ project. Which was flown for 20 years and sold for the RV-9 project. So the Grumman is kind of the grandaddy of what we're flying now.
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2011, 02:52 PM
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bigbill25 bigbill25 is offline
 
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Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRhodes View Post
And Ė itís an LSA and has removable wings.
Interesting that the original Jim Bede-designed prototype had folding wings. And, being a Bede design, it essentially is a certified kit plane

--Bill
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  #10  
Old 11-04-2011, 03:00 PM
aerhed aerhed is offline
 
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Location: Big Sandy, WY
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OOPs! Tha's right its a Bede. Northrop birthed the jerky series (PA28). How could I forget that with a piece of well casing for a spar?
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