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Acro or IFR training?

mchargmg

mchargmg

Well Known Member
Hey all,

I wanted to get some recommendations for training for next year. I am weighing whether to get acrobatic training or IFR training first? I eventually want to get both.

My thoughts follow. I am a low time pilot with a VFR equipped 6a. I mainly got it for fun, so I am leaning towards the acro training. I actually joined IAC hoping to get into a few local meets this next year. There are a couple of people locally that do acro. training. The acro training will also take less time than the IFR training.

I can actually get the IFR training covered under the VA, but I would have to do it in a Cessna at a local Air Force base flying club. Ugh.... I have never flown a yoke plane before, I guess I could learn, but I have to admit I am not looking forward to it. I do think the training will make me a better pilot, so I want to do it eventually.

If you have any thoughts fire away.

Geoff
 
Do both!

If the VA is going to pay for your instrument training, jump all over that and then get your commercial. It will take some time but and every now and then you will need to do some fun flying, so find someone who will give you some training in your -6A.

The funny thing about your post is that I have heard people express their concern about flying a stick but never about flying a yoke. (Not to worry, my son has only flown in experimental and antiques and thinks a C172 is something exotic.)
 
Acro and IFR training are very valuable to the "overall pilot". If the VA is paying, go get the IFR in the Cessna. You never now when benefits will get cut! Don't sweat the yoke vs stick. You will adapt instantly, it is really no big deal. That being said, I will probably never own a yoke airplane again, but there is no learning curve to concern yourself with. The acro training and more specifically spin training is very valuable. I have an IFR equipped RV6 and got my IFR rating and commercial certificate in yoke equipped aircraft.


Blue Skies
Bill
 
My vote is for the instrument rating, although truth be told you could do both simultaneously if you have the time. Any way, I did my Instrument through the VA which means it has to be done through a part 141 program. For a low time pilot the main advantage over part 61 is the elimination of the 50 hour cross country prerequisite.
 
My vote would be to do both as well, but if you have to do them one at a time, I would vote for completing the instrument training first. Just my $.02
 
do both, each one can save your life. by far the ifr will be harder and take more time, and in your case no $$$. :D don't pass them up. you will be 10 times the pilot when you are done.
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I did my IFR thru GiBill. By far the way to go. However, you can realistically expect it to take 8-10months. You can't fly your a.. off because there is a monetary limit each month with GiBill so you can only do it so fast. That said, I flew twice a week and it was enough, along with the studying. Consider IFR like getting a masters degree in flying - that's the kind of work ethic you need for it, at least in my case.

So I would recommend that you do the IFR book work with Gi Bill as soon as you can, and while doing it, keep yourself motivated by doing the acro. Use the acro lessons as a reward for finishing a chapter or something IFR.

Oh, as far as yoke and stick, forget it. IFR flying is very little about flying (youre expected to be able to manipulate the controls from VFR training) and all about system management, navigation and communication - ie using and being in the ATC system - kind of like being at work, youre expected to be able to defacto use a computer to get whatever your job is done.
 
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maniago said:
I did my IFR thru GiBill. By far the way to go. However, you can realistically expect it to take 8-10months. You can't fly your a.. off because there is a monetary limit each month with GiBill so you can only do it so fast. That said, I flew twice a week and it was enough, along with the studying. Consider IFR like getting a masters degree in flying - that's the kind of work ethic you need for it, at least in my case.

So I would recommend that you do the IFR book work with Gi Bill as soon as you can, and while doing it, keep yourself motivated by doing the acro. Use the acro lessons as a reward for finishing a chapter or something IFR.
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Huh? When did you geat your rating? I got mine just over a year ago and there was no monthly limit-- just the $10K overall cap using the post 9/11 GI Bill. I did my rating over a 4 month period.
 
Auburntsts said:
Huh? When did you geat your rating? I got mine just over a year ago and there was no monthly limit-- just the $10K overall cap using the post 9/11 GI Bill. I did my rating over a 4 month period.
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I did mine in 2011. Maybe the rules changed, but it was something like $1200/month max, if you wanted to get reimbursed 100%. If you wanted to fork over money, yeah get out your checkbook and supplement yourself.

If its changed, then good for you guys. I also did all my book work tests etc before I flew lesson 1, but I also studied everyday to get it done so I wasn't slacking by any means.
 
All good advice

Hi guys,

Thanks for the good advice. I have been studying some on the IFR material. Reminds me of the book studies for PPL, just more so. I like the idea of using the acro as a reward for making some progress in the IFR. I took up GA flying to be fun after all.

On a related, but slightly different topic. How willing are you to use your RV in real IMC conditions? The picture Turbo posted seems awful:) In my current job I get to go TDY a bit, and taking the 6a is infinitely better than commercial air or driving. However relying on VFR conditions limits that to a few times a year realistically. I am hard over that the weather must be unquestionably VFR everywhere in the states I am flying in before I leave the local area in my toy plane:)

I suppose this question is poking at if upgrading the panel to IFR is "worth" it in any sense. I can't believe I just typed that. Nothing in general aviation makes any sense from the financial standpoint.

Let me ask it a different way. If you and your Vans plane are IFR capable, do you think it was "worth it" in terms of satisfaction you gained from getting the rating and upgrading the plane up to those standards?

thanks again

Geoff
 
I have no issues taking my RV into IMC and have done so routinely. I file IFR for all of my X/Cs regardless if the weather is IMC or VMC.
 
If I could only do 1, I'd concentrate on the IFR ticket. But, I'd do everything I could on my own before paying a CFII. I'd get the Gliem or ASA study guide for the written and study my butt off and take all the practice tests I could with a goal of 90% or better. Then, I'd start on the practical test standards and memorize them. Each and every flight task, I'd armchair fly them till I had theory of them memorized. I'd pick the brains of my instrument rated friend until I felt confident I understood each task. Then, and only then, I would Fly with a CFII and try to fly as often as possible.
 
I'm obviously not a Vans guy, but its not the plane so much as the pilot. After all you can fly a Stearman IFR if you have the gear inside it.

The real question is do you want to? Also remember that the airlines as much as we grouse about them are pretty much guaranteed to get you to where you want to go no matter what. Do you want to bust your tail to be somewhere exactly when you have to? That's a recipe for an NTSB accident investigation.

Like you said, flying is for fun. If its not fun, then why are you doing it? Also, as has been said here on VAF many times, you can buy a lot of hotel rooms and rental cars for the price of IFR gear and training up keep.

In the end for me, I like my toys unbent. If I have to go somewhere for work, let work pay for it and if I dont get there or am late via the airlines, everyone gets it.....and they're prob late too. I don't get that understanding if I do the flying.

Just my .02
 
Well that's a decision none of us can make for you. For me, it was about picking up a skill set that would add utility and it has with the added benefit of an insurance premium reduction . Being able to fIle IFR opens up the go-no/go options but'it's not a panacea as there are weather conditions (icing, thunderstorms, etc) that my RV-10 simply isn't equipped to deal with. If I really have to be somewhere TDY no matter what then I go commercial and don't think twice about.
 
N804RV said:
If I could only do 1, I'd concentrate on the IFR ticket. But, I'd do everything I could on my own before paying a CFII. I'd get the Gliem or ASA study guide for the written and study my butt off and take all the practice tests I could with a goal of 90% or better. Then, I'd start on the practical test standards and memorize them. Each and every flight task, I'd armchair fly them till I had theory of them memorized. I'd pick the brains of my instrument rated friend until I felt confident I understood each task. Then, and only then, I would Fly with a CFII and try to fly as often as possible.
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We all understand what you are saying, however if you were the OP, you wouldnt do that. Why? Cause he gets all his training free...cause he volunteered to sacrifice his life for his country. He already "paid" for it. Take all the training you can get. Use it or lose it.
 
mchargmg said:
... If you and your Vans plane are IFR capable, do you think it was "worth it" in terms of satisfaction you gained from getting the rating and upgrading the plane up to those standards?
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I can't discuss the "satisfaction" angle since I do not (yet) have an instument equipped airplane nor the rating, but I can say that I have been in a bad situation WRT IMC and there was a extended pereiod of time that I thought I was going to die. And in that time, I would have gladly paid ANY amount of money to be on the ground safely. After that incident, the financial aspect of being well equipped and trained lost a lot of relevance. If you are limiting your flying to breakfast runs in the local area thats one thing, but if you are going to cross state lines and actually use the airplane to get somewhere, then being instrument equipped and trained is a good thing.

WRT the GI Bill, jump on that as soon as possible. The time just FLIES by once you get out, and mine lapsed before I knew what was happening. Don't make the same mistake.

As for aerobatic instruction, the more, the better. However, I don't think you need to jump in to a formal school right off the bat. Fly with someone who knows what they are doing and ease into it with some "simple" envelope expansion maneuvers. The "practical" side of aerobatic instruction is learning stall/spin behavior and recognizing the proper way out of unusual attitudes. That's stuff you can work on locally. You can go learn inverted flat spins and perfectly round loops from Sean Tucker once you get the instrument ticket.
 
I also say get both types of instruction! There's nothing like a 30 min local Acro flight just like there is something very satisfying (and fun!) about launching into an overcast on a XC and popping out of the clouds at your destination. I've also had a blast with local 1000 OVC flights keeping up on proficiency. With both types of flying get the right instruction and slowly and safely expand your proficiency.
 
Toobuilder said:
As for aerobatic instruction, the more, the better. However, I don't think you need to jump in to a formal school right off the bat.
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Ah here's something you could consider. Commercial. You don't need IFR to get to commercial. So you might be able to get GiBill to pay for you to learn the commercial maneuvers, which though not acro, they are very useful and fun, and make you a better stick and rudder pilot. Kinda like very poormans acro, but with an emphasis on precision.

Not knowing the current rules obviously, I'm not sure if you can start IFR before you finish commercial - I know you couldn't when I was training IFR. But if you can, might be something to consider. I never finished commercial because I need more hours just burning gas in the system and I felt that was a waste of my GB. But I loved the maneuvers, and I'll finish it after I finish building.
 
maniago said:
Ah here's something you could consider. Commercial. You don't need IFR to get to commercial. So you might be able to get GiBill to pay for you to learn the commercial maneuvers, which though not acro, they are very useful and fun, and make you a better stick and rudder pilot. Kinda like very poormans acro, but with an emphasis on precision.

Not knowing the current rules obviously, I'm not sure if you can start IFR before you finish commercial - I know you couldn't when I was training IFR. But if you can, might be something to consider. I never finished commercial because I need more hours just burning gas in the system and I felt that was a waste of my GB. But I loved the maneuvers, and I'll finish it after I finish building.
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Yeah, the GI Bill program is actually for a Commercial Instrument but the VA does not mandate in which order you pursue the ratings, nor are there any prohibitions from getting the IR and stopping there -- I did because I had no desire to get my commercial and even if I had, I pretty much used up my funding because I was renting a late model G1000 equipped C- 172SP and I was flying with one of the school 's chief CFIIs who garnered a higher hourly rate.even though I took my checkride at the min 35 hours,

Also, to go the GI Bill route, because of the commercial focus you have to get a Class II physical. Probably not an issue but something to remember especially if your medical is coming due around the time you want to start training.
 
You don't need commercial for IFR, most people do the Instrument rating first. The commercial certificate has limitations if you don't have an Instrument rating.
 
crabandy said:
You don't need commercial for IFR, most people do the Instrument rating first. The commercial certificate has limitations if you don't have an Instrument rating.
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I was confused too. Some of the above posts were referring to GI bill rules, which provide funding only for work-related training.
 
I'd suggest a slight change to Ken's suggestion (practice on your own first): Get some instruction (whether from a cfii or a good ifr pilot friend) FIRST, then go practice on your own. Just to make sure you're not practicing bad habits which will need to be unlearned later.
 
BobTurner said:
I was confused too. Some of the above posts were referring to GI bill rules, which provide funding only for work-related training.
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Absolutely. Our discussion was on the GI Bill since this was the route the OP was contemplating taking to obtain his IR. As Bob said, the VA will only fund higher ratings that are considered vocational in nature unless the flight training is part of a 4 yr degree program. The VA does not consider the IR by itself to be vocational. This is why the commercial rating became part the discussion as it relates to the funding piece and not as to how the ratings relate to each other as described in post 20.
 
Geoff

RVs are very IFR capable and you should not be concerned. Like any airplane not capable of known icing, that is your biggest watch out for weather. As with any flying, stay within you capabilities for weather.

Last year I started acro in my 8 and love every minute I can get in the air. I definitely suggest acro. It not only greatly enhances your stick skills, it will make you even more jealous of the ducks and geese.
 
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