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'Targa Strip' departure

flion

Well Known Member
Last winter I was descending into Lake Havasu from the East. Normally I would do a circle to the North to get around to the West side and enter the pattern. In the process, I would reduce throttle and descend leisurely to pattern altitude. This time I was a bit behind the breakfast gang and wanted to give my passenger a bit of excitement, so I pushed the nose down as we crossed the ridge and did a cruise-power descent to the airport.

We got more excitement than we expected. At about 150 KIAS (closing on VNE at that altitude), there was a loud BANG! Did we hit a bird? Engine is still running, controls are working, breath resumed after a few seconds but it may be a while before my butt stops clenching the seat. Nothing really to do but land the plane, so I do and tie down but don't notice anything out of place. It's after breakfast when I am doing my pre-flight that I notice that the 'targa strip' is gone from the canopy.

I've got a tip-up, Sika bonded, and the canopy joint is(was) covered with a fiberglass layup bonded to the front canopy. When I had done the layup, I thought I had roughened the surface well enough and, to be fair, it has stayed on since the first flight in 2008. But then, I normally don't cruise faster than 135 KIAS, even for descents. But it had departed cleanly, fortunately without damaging the aircraft (I looked carefully for where it must have hit the plane, causing that BANG! but found no marks or dents).

Well, the canopy was secure so I could fly it home though there were gaps in the left and right lower rear corners where the plexi and side strips don't quite meet the rear canopy, so it was a bit cold and loud. That turned me into a fair-weather pilot and there hasn't been much fair weather here since then (nice days but colder than I wanted to deal with). It finally got warm enough to do some glass work, so I masked off the layup area.

This time I used a carbide tip in a drill to rough up the bonding area (last time it was 80 grit in a detail sander). For good measure, I used a 3/32" drill to put some holes in the bonding area (and to stop-drill the one crack caused by the departing strip) which I made sure got plenty of attention when I wetted the bonding area. I used three layers of 2" glass tape staggered at 1/2" intervals aft to front to lay up the new strip and it came out beautifully. I'm going to add another strip to the back (butted to the front/top strip and trimmed to match the current back) to give the aft lip some extra stiffness, plus a little reinforcement at the left/right bottom of the strip.

I don't expect to have a problem again but I am making this cautionary tale to emphasize two points. First, you can be more aggressive than you think in preparing a surface for glass. I knew this but at that point in the project I think I was hurrying (it was the last thing to do before the inspection) and when it held through the first 100 hours, I quit worrying about it. That is the second thing - I should have paid more attention to it and looked for separations. It was probably only a little bit near one end of the strip but it would have been enough for the airstream to get under and peel the entire strip off. And so, first sentence of this paragraph notwithstanding, I will be checking this regularly in my pre-flight from now on.
 
I've seen de-bonding of the tiara in a couple of other tip-ups. In one case, it was fixed with a special 3M epoxy designed for plastics combined with a couple of screws while in another case it was just Sika'd in place.

On my slider, also Sika'd, I used that for bonding the fiberglass to the plastic for the tiara (across the windscreen bow) as well as for the rear canopy fairing (carbon fiber, in my case). I used a different primer from Sika for these pieces than I did for bonding to the metal. No issues yet, but it's only been about 450hrs.
 
Epoxy does not stick to plexyglas! Dont relay on this joint!

Hello

I have glued my canopy with Sika. I made many trials to verify a good bond for the front edge. Vans tells tou roughen up the plexy and then laminat fiberglass onto to make a good transition.

All my tests with epoxy/plexy gave a weak joint. If you take a #60 grit sandpaper, you will generate "some" grip, but the joint is still weak.

It is better to laminate your targa strip over the canopy with a release agent (make a few layer of tape onto the canopy to simulate the later needed "glue-space". Finish it up, paint it, and the glue it on with the cleaner/primer/primer/Sika. This connection will hold!
 
If you used Sika to bond the canopy and you have any materials left, you have the solution in hand. The Sika primer is just as effective for epoxy as it is for polyurethane. I have a -7 slider, everything bonded with Sikaflex. I did extensive testing of sample coupons 3 years ago when I bonded my windscreen fairing. Samples prepared with Sika cleaner and primer displayed remarkably better bonding than anything else I tried. Epoxy responds as well to primer as does urethane.
 
Good responses. I've added a couple of pop rivets where it meets the aluminum side skirts, but if it starts to delaminate again I will 'help' it the rest of the way and then reattach with Sika. Since the canopy was done in 2007, the Sika I had is long past expiration but I can afford to get some more for this small job.

(Really didn't expect to end up on the front page... :eek:)
 
When I first did my targa on my tipup, I really roughed up the plexi with 40 grit so rough I never thought it was ever gonna come loose. Several days later after the layup cured, I just tugged on the corner a bit and the whole thing popped right off like it was sitting on release agent or something.

Needless to say that made me realize that I was never gonna trust the epoxy alone to hole that thing on so I drilled and countersunk for every other screw around the rear frame to actually go thru the targa.

I also added pop rivets to the sides down at the bottom as well for belt and suspenders...

Still going strong!

kvt6u.jpg
 
Confused?

I just finished bonding my canopy with Sika and it went great. I understand the "targa" to be the area between canopy and back window joint. I have 2006 plans and don't see anything that goes over this area? Is this where your "targa" strip is similar to the slider stripe at the windscreen bow up front? You do not mean the fiberglass fairing that is layed up at the front of the canopy and on skin of the canopy frame? This fairing is bonded to the aluminum and the plexi with epoxy . This will hold right? Thanks for the answer in advance.PS have 7a TU.
 
Is it worth to rough up the plexy?

Hello

I do not think it is good to rough up the plexy with #60 or #40 ... you just will create a starting point to crack. In the description about the cutting of the canopy, there it is written to not move the canopy while the edges are still unfinished from the "big cut". Because the scratches are starting points for cracks ... and then, when you start to do the fairing up front or make a targa strip ... you make it rough again!? Does not make sense to me!

I made my transition fairing up front with fiberglas, but I took it of, grind and cut it to fit. Then glued it on with Cleaner/Primer/Primer/Sika 295 UV. I'm not yet ready to fly, but soon. My bonding test have shown this will hold up and will get damaged if it should come apart.
 
I just finished bonding my canopy with Sika and it went great. I understand the "targa" to be the area between canopy and back window joint. I have 2006 plans and don't see anything that goes over this area? Is this where your "targa" strip is similar to the slider stripe at the windscreen bow up front? You do not mean the fiberglass fairing that is layed up at the front of the canopy and on skin of the canopy frame? This fairing is bonded to the aluminum and the plexi with epoxy . This will hold right? Thanks for the answer in advance.PS have 7a TU.

The targa is not in the plans and is totally optional. Not to be confuse with the front faired in area.
 
When I did my canopy, I used Sika for the front fairing. Yes, the 'targa' goes over the joint between the forward and aft canopy and is totally optional ... but makes the joint look much nicer and helps keep out wind and water.
 
Found this thread and I have a related question, it seams that epoxy does not stick to plexi very well? what if, you took the Sikaflex cleaner and primer, let it dry, then applied your wet layups of fiberglass on this primer area? The primer appears to get a good bite into the plexi?
 
Found this thread and I have a related question, it seams that epoxy does not stick to plexi very well? what if, you took the Sikaflex cleaner and primer, let it dry, then applied your wet layups of fiberglass on this primer area? The primer appears to get a good bite into the plexi?

Epoxy sticks to acrylic very well, but it does require proper surface preparation.

A lot of people that have thought that they did good surface prep..... didn't.
 
I know I had good prep and it still peeled right off. Epoxy works great for the front fairing, Targa strip....not so much!

Go with some screws and never worry about it again.
 
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Epoxy sticks to acrylic very well, but it does require proper surface preparation.

A lot of people that have thought that they did good surface prep..... didn't.

I spoke with West about this. They said that the adhesion of their regular expoxy to acrylic is poor. They have another structural type epoxy that they recommend for applications like this. It was expensive though.

I ordered a special two part urethane adhesive which was specified for acrylic to bond my targa strip. I also put in 6 pull rivets just in case; mostly due to reading this very thread.

Larry
 
Why not sikaflex the targa strip to the canopy?
Mold the targa strip in place over plastic wrap. Once cured remove, prep, and sikaflex it in place.
 
Why not sikaflex the targa strip to the canopy?
Mold the targa strip in place over plastic wrap. Once cured remove, prep, and sikaflex it in place.

Most likely would hold great but may not look so hot.

My understanding is that Sika requires a pretty good gap between the two parts being bonded or in other words thin glue joints are not as strong. I may be incorrect as I have never used the stuff but I think that is what I have read here in the past.

If that is true, one may not like the look of it when used with a Targa.
 
I have a slider and did the metal skirt with Sika, it is holding very well but takes up space, My question is can we eliminate this step and just do the primer, I believe the primer chemically etches and bonds into to plexi, then can we use regular west epoxy and fabric, glass or carbon on this primer surface? From the what's your day job thread, there has got to be a chemist on here somewhere..................
 
You could get away with a 1/16" inch application of sikaflex. Use the sika to fillet the front of the targa and make a nice transition from the canopy to the strip - and sika paints well.
 
I believe the primer chemically etches and bonds into to plexi,

self-etching primer refers to it's ability to etch metal, not plastics. Using phosphoric acid I believe. For your knowledge, etching doesn't allow the paint materials to blend with the metal. Etching refers to the chemical removal (techinically it's a conversion) of the metal's surface oxidiation, allowing good mechanical bond for the coating.

While you can get acyrilic to a semi-liquid state with solvents, it will only mix with other acrylic material. Acyrilic is typically fused in this process (they call it welding) as opposed to bonding.

There a plenty of adhesives that do a decent job bonding to acrylic. The urethane adhesive that I used allowed a very thin and un-noticeable bonding layer.


Larry
 
self-etching primer refers to it's ability to etch metal, not plastics. Using phosphoric acid I believe. For your knowledge, etching doesn't allow the paint materials to blend with the metal. Etching refers to the chemical removal (techinically it's a conversion) of the metal's surface oxidiation, allowing good mechanical bond for the coating.

While you can get acyrilic to a semi-liquid state with solvents, it will only mix with other acrylic material. Acyrilic is typically fused in this process (they call it welding) as opposed to bonding.

There a plenty of adhesives that do a decent job bonding to acrylic. The urethane adhesive that I used allowed a very thin and un-noticeable bonding layer.


Larry

Can you share what urethane adhesive you used, and what did you bond to the acrylic? Thanks.
 
Can you share what urethane adhesive you used, and what did you bond to the acrylic? Thanks.

I used JB Weld Plastic Bonder (not the Plastic Epoxy that they sell in stores). It is a Urethane based adhesive (Tan in color), similar to that used for panel bonding in the auto industry. I tested by gluing two acrylic pieces together and it was quite strong.

I molded my my strip in place. I used packing tape on the canopy and did a layup of fiberglass and epoxy. Once set, It was easy to peel off the packing tape. I then thoroughly cleaned the canopy and targa strip and scuffed them with 80 grit paper and cleaned again (before you peel the strip off, you can lay down your masking tape to create the line that you sand up to). I used about 1" of bonding area on the acrylic (i.e. targa strip covers 1" of canopy edge). It is important that you scuff the acrylic fully. There should be absolutely no shiney areas remaining. It is also critical that you clean it agressively before sanding. I used acetone or laquer thinner. They use a release agent when molding those and that will destroy your bond. If you don't clean it before sanding, the sanding operation can drive the agent into the surface, depending upon what it was. Once it was bonded, I filled the leading edge with Micro and sanded a nice transition.

It is strong. I accidentally left the canopy up while closing the garage door. The door hit the targa strip hard enough to cause it to reverse. No damage or separation.

I also drilled and countersunk for 5-6 pull rivets just to be safe.

Larry
 
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So, yesterday I did a test on some scrap plexi acrylic, I did a prep with 60 grit, cleaned and prep one with 209d primer and one without, then using west system epoxy and 10 oz strip and let cure 24 hr. today I wanted to see how easy it separated, it pulled right off! the one with the primer was about 30% more effort to remove, but they both came off very easy. doing another test tonight with dimples drilled with a 40 bit at about half depth. as mentioned above, this epoxy does not bond to our canopy very well, has anyone tried this test?
 
So, yesterday I did a test on some scrap plexi acrylic, I did a prep with 60 grit, cleaned and prep one with 209d primer and one without, then using west system epoxy and 10 oz strip and let cure 24 hr. today I wanted to see how easy it separated, it pulled right off! the one with the primer was about 30% more effort to remove, but they both came off very easy. doing another test tonight with dimples drilled with a 40 bit at about half depth. as mentioned above, this epoxy does not bond to our canopy very well, has anyone tried this test?

Try a test with Sikaflex if you have any. Don't worry about the 1/8 gap they call for, just clamp the pieces together let cure for a couple of days and then see how hard/easy they are to pull apart.
 
yes, I know how tough Sika is, laid up carbon fiber and glass for windshield skirt on packing tape today, going to pull it off, finish, paint and Sika on after fuse is painted.
 
yes, I know how tough Sika is, laid up carbon fiber and glass for windshield skirt on packing tape today, going to pull it off, finish, paint and Sika on after fuse is painted.

Just curious what weave carbon fiber you used. I'm at this stage for my M2, but I'm not finding any BID equivalent in carbon fiber.

(I'm using sika to bond everything plexi related in the windshield/canopy grouping.)

Thanks for any info!
 
Dan H is the expert here, I'm sure I did mine wrong, but it came out great....and strong. I bought a roll of 2" CF, then noticed the fabric strands were going the wrong way, so I cut it into a bunch of 2X2 squares with the lines of CF going front to rear, I was only looking to strengthen the WS overlap part, after 5 layers of FG I did the CF then another two of FG, and when it was done I had a big mess to sand.....but hey, a month later and a trash can full of sand paper, it worked out ok.
 
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