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15% Ethanol

meadeduck

Well Known Member
Is there a thread anywhere dealing with the proposed increase of ethanol in premium gas? I'm getting a little nervous about Congress saber-rattling that 15% number around. I think I read somewhere that the 912 was ok with 10% but 15% was going to be a stretch.
Forgive me if there's already discussion on this.
Meade and George
N612RV
 
I wonder if this will really happen. It was announced this week that corn stocks are at an all-time low. One of the reasons they mention is the use of corn in ethanol production.

That is also one of the reasons given for the rise in food prices worldwide. With luck, our politico's will figure this out and stop forcing it upon us.

Besides, corn should be drunk, not burned.
 
Aviation Fuel Club

I just talked to reporter Kent Misegades about this today. Check out this new organization-- http://www.aviationfuelclub.org/

Seems that AOPA and EAA are both being slow to catch on to what the industry really needs. :( But these folks are gathering momentum.
 
If the above fears are realized, and we can't use the stuff anymore I suppose 100ll is what's left (presently). Does anyone know what using 100ll, changing oil/filters every 25 hrs, using a lead scavenger, as well as frequent plug renewal all the time will do to the TBO? The hourly operating cost is obviously a factor as it will rise to almost double considering the cumulative add-on expense. Has it been done anywhere with documentation? Rotax, for example?
Dick Seiders
 
Mix the fuels

If auto fuel ever contains 15% alcohol and you wish to burn only 10% alcohol, then you can mix 13 gallons of 15% gasohol with 7 gallons of 100LL. The mixture will contain about 10 percent alcohol.
Joe
 
mogas

Would'nt it be easer to convert our aircraft to burn ethanal? How hard could it be. I know of at least four RVs in SD burning straight ethanal. If they will handle 10% maybe with a little larger main jet 15% would be fine. Just wondering.
 
Would'nt it be easer to convert our aircraft to burn ethanal? How hard could it be. I know of at least four RVs in SD burning straight ethanal. If they will handle 10% maybe with a little larger main jet 15% would be fine. Just wondering.

Let's see.

100% ethanal = less power
Less power = reduced range
Less power = Less ROC
Less ROC = Less GW

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The four RV-3's are for a very specific use and seem to be a great sales tool for the corn growers.
 
Let's see.

100% ethanal = less power
Less power = reduced range
Less power = Less ROC
Less ROC = Less GW

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The four RV-3's are for a very specific use and seem to be a great sales tool for the corn growers.


Didn't one of these airplanes crash recently, due to engine probs?
 
I wonder if this will really happen. It was announced this week that corn stocks are at an all-time low. One of the reasons they mention is the use of corn in ethanol production.

That is also one of the reasons given for the rise in food prices worldwide. With luck, our politico's will figure this out and stop forcing it upon us.

Besides, corn should be drunk, not burned.

This is a common misconception about ethanol production. First, and foremost corn is a renewable product, we will make more. If we are short on production may I suggest using the 14 million set aside acres we currently pay land owners to grow nothing with your tax dollars. ;)

The feed corn that is used in producing ethanol is minimal. All you are using is the sugar in the corn, not the feed protein. If you use 100 bushels of corn in an ethanol plant you get back 95 bushels of animal feed protein for cattle, hogs, ect. Since the corn used is feed corn anyway there is very little waste. If we need more corn see the above paragraph. ;)

World wide demand for corn has used up excess supply, and that is a good thing,( see paragraph #1) We can grow more. Ethanol is not the "buggee man" made out by the press to confuse the city folks. It is a good thing to reduce oil consumption. Maybe we should look at drilling more oil wells? :eek:

I agree with the drinking part! :D
 
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My understanding from the Rotax 912 seminar I attended at Oshkosh is that the problem with the ethanol isn't typically with the Rotax engine itself but more to do with plastic fuel lines and such. That may have been a simplified statement given the nature of the forum, but if it is true I would think that the RV-12 would be capable of handling it since the entire fuel system is aluminum.

They either didn't state if there was a maximum percentage or I just forgot it if they did, though.
 
This is a common misconception about ethanol production. First, and foremost corn is a renewable product, we will make more. .... We can grow more. Ethanol is not the "buggee man" made out by the press to confuse the city folks. It is a good thing to reduce oil consumption.

This is incorrect, unfortunately. The energy budget of corn ethanol production is a net deficit (unless the laws of physics have been changed recently). It takes a lot of petroleum to produce ethanol from corn, in fact it uses more petroleum than simply burning it as gasoline in our engines. Putting it another way, you can't produce ethanol using only the ethanol you've previously produced and come out ahead.

In short, ethanol is not a renewable fuel, because it's not self-sustainable. Converting petroleum into ethanol for fuel will _increase_ our dependence on oil, not decrease it.

Ok, that out of the way, as for the 15%, I'm certain of 2 things:
- we're screwed and it will happen (there's nothing going on to stop it)
- I'll be burning it in my 912.

I doubt 15% will be significantly more problematic than the current 10% as far as the engine goes. In a lot of places ethanol concentrations are ever higher and the Rotax is being operated without problems in those areas.

I think we'll just have to continue to take the same precautions with our fuel systems as we do now with 10%.

Finally, 100LL is still a significantly worse alternative due to the lead. The lead eventually cokes the engine up even with the increased maintenance schedule and different operating practices. So it'll be more cost effective in the end to just run the 15% once it appears.

PS: have to post my own correction to my own statement above - the energy budget of corn eth. is technically positive, so my statement there is actually wrong. But the overall budget is actually extremely marginal, enough that energy independence from corn eth. production is a practical impossibility (not to mention environmental effects from its production which are also very somber).

For example:
http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

and other corroborating data.

So we're still screwed and we shouldn't get our hopes up, sorry ;)

LS
 
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Here is the story I read about corn stocks being at a 13 year low.

Corn hit $7 a bushel today. I agree the supply is low, but all we need to do is grow more corn. Most of the land we have in CRP set aside acres (where the US tax payer pays land owners to grow nothing) could be planted this spring.

In Nebraska, billionair Ted Turner recieves millions of your tax dollars for his set aside CRP land where he illegally grazes his commercial buffalo operation. Should you have to pay for Ted Turner to feed his buffalo? He did not even send you a thank you card.

JMHO.
 
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Why can't we use water to extract the alcohol?

As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine buys a drum of ethanol-laced mogas after he puts 4 gallons of water in it. By the time he drives it home and it has sloshed around, the water acts like an ethanol magnet and "sucks" the ethanol out. He then drains the 8 gallons of water/ethanol mix and has, essentially, mogas and no alcohol.

Best,
 
Most of the land we have in CRP set aside acres (where the US tax payer pays land owners to grow nothing) could be planted this spring.

Nice sound bite "using your taxes to pay farmers to do nothing..." but not true. CRP land is planted to vegetation that preserves topsoil and tries to hold water, and provide feed or cover for wildlife. you can't have a BARE field that was in corn last year be CRP this year. contracts are either 10 or 15 years, but people are variously stairstepped in the program so every year some farm land entered into crp or removed.
 
As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine buys a drum of ethanol-laced mogas after he puts 4 gallons of water in it. By the time he drives it home and it has sloshed around, the water acts like an ethanol magnet and "sucks" the ethanol out. He then drains the 8 gallons of water/ethanol mix and has, essentially, mogas and no alcohol.

Best,

ethanol increases the AKI, so for ethanol fuel the people that make the fuel use a lower base stock gasoline counting on the ethanol to raise the AKI to an acceptable level.



For 87 AKI regular gasoline, the refinery can make 84 AKI blending product, usually referred to as 84 cBOB (conventional Blendstock for Oxygenated Blending).

doesn't sound like a good idea to use sub octane fuel in an engine
 
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Danny 7, where did you learn all that tech stuff? I personally wouldn't mix water with my gas for any reason. For what it's worth I use Texaco 91-93 octane premium motor fuel and have tested it for ethanol using EAA's test kit finding none. So maybe premium gas doesn't get ethanol, or maybe it's just Texaco, or maybe it's just the supplier to the station I buy it at, but there is none in it.
Dick Seiders
PS I'd still like to know if anyone has thoroughly tested 100ll in a Rotax 912uls.
 
corny business

I have to relate a news story I saw; relating that high corn prices would cause people to go hungry. It appears that a $3 box of cornflakes has 5 cents worth of corn in it....so the new $7 a bushel corn will cause a crazy spike to 6 cents. Hmmmm.
But I do appreciate all I've learned about ethanol from the techy guys on this thread.....perhaps I'm a little wiser, as well as skeptical.
 
Danny 7, where did you learn all that tech stuff? I personally wouldn't mix water with my gas for any reason. For what it's worth I use Texaco 91-93 octane premium motor fuel and have tested it for ethanol using EAA's test kit finding none. So maybe premium gas doesn't get ethanol, or maybe it's just Texaco, or maybe it's just the supplier to the station I buy it at, but there is none in it.
Dick Seiders
PS I'd still like to know if anyone has thoroughly tested 100ll in a Rotax 912uls.

It's likely just your particular gas stations that haven't yet gone to 10%. In most areas of the country all grades are 10%.

One thing that's not clear yet is whether E10 wil still be available alongside E15 once E15 appears. You'd expect that it wouldn't since the govt is trying to force ethanol usage upwards, but the language of the proposal that I saw seemed to suggest that E10 would still have to be an available option.

As for long-term use of 100LL, all I've heard is anecdotal evidence 2nd and 3rd hand about flight schools using it continuously. The stories I've heard are that tops become needed at about the 1000 hour mark because of the lead eventually microwelding pits in the valve seats.

But that's just 3rd hand information, I've not gotten anything first hand about it yet. Best to avoid being a guinea pig, IMO - just run the E10 from the gas station if that's your only autogas alternative ;).

LS
 
Nice sound bite "using your taxes to pay farmers to do nothing..." but not true. CRP land is planted to vegetation that preserves topsoil and tries to hold water, and provide feed or cover for wildlife. you can't have a BARE field that was in corn last year be CRP this year. contracts are either 10 or 15 years, but people are variously stairstepped in the program so every year some farm land entered into crp or removed.

So it is a good thing to have the US tax payer pay for this? Planting grass? Harvesting nothing but a fat checks for billionairs and millionairs? This is more than a sound bite, it is a govenment program gone crazy.

The correct position should be if you receive more than 50% of your taxable income to actual farming you should recieve nothing. Ted Turner does not need more money. He gave away 1 billion to charity!
 
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Larry is right

I farm in North East NE. Larry lives in star city NE. Several of my neighbors just last year put their farms in CRP. This is totally wrong. There is no way you should be able to justify paying a farmer that is to lazy to farm his land. His land should have been rented to a neighbor or another farmer. Their land was corn or beans the year before and last year was 4 foot tall weeds. Why should a worker in a city or anywhere else be forced through taxes to give money to these people so they can sit on their fat a$$. If we need more corn let us plant it. No free money.
 
So it is a good thing to have the US tax payer pay for this? Planting grass? Harvesting nothing but a fat checks for billionairs and millionairs? This is more than a sound bite, it is a govenment program gone crazy.

The correct position should be if you receive less than 50% of your taxable income to actual farming you should recieve nothing. Ted Turner does not need more money. He gave away 1 billion to charity!

i suspect the actual money the government has tied up in the CRP program is a very very small amount of the actual budget. If you don't like it i suggest writing your congresscritters. the actual payment is very low, the reason someone (like ted turner) gets a big paycheck is because he would have thousands and thousands of acres enrolled. I do not like judging a program based off of what one billionaire has done with the program, i suspect if you look at any tax exemption or government program you'll find a rich person using it to his advantage.

I farm in North East NE. Larry lives in star city NE. Several of my neighbors just last year put their farms in CRP. This is totally wrong. There is no way you should be able to justify paying a farmer that is to lazy to farm his land. His land should have been rented to a neighbor or another farmer. Their land was corn or beans the year before and last year was 4 foot tall weeds. Why should a worker in a city or anywhere else be forced through taxes to give money to these people so they can sit on their fat a$$. If we need more corn let us plant it. No free money.

totally wrong? farmers can't do what they want with their land? ha ha. maybe if the neighbors would have guaranteed a better income for 10+ years your neighbor would have been running to their door to get the contract signed...
 
i suspect the actual money the government has tied up in the CRP program is a very very small amount of the actual budget. If you don't like it i suggest writing your congresscritters. the actual payment is very low, the reason someone (like ted turner) gets a big paycheck is because he would have thousands and thousands of acres enrolled. I do not like judging a program based off of what one billionaire has done with the program, i suspect if you look at any tax exemption or government program you'll find a rich person using it to his advantage.

Okay, this is getting a little too political for VAF, but I would politely ask you to think about what you just said. We as American tax payers, have to start looking at the little things in the budget. $12 million there, $50 million here pretty soon we are talking real money! ;)

I live in Nebraska, the corn belt of the country. This is my "ox that is being gored", this is my "back yard", these are my neighbors that are "cheating the system" and I say as an American tax payer spending money on wasteful programs like paying farmers to grow nothing but grass when there is a shortage of corn (and gasoline) is the same pure economic madness that has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

Danny, I understand your point, but I think if you really look at what I am saying: "Enough is enough" then ending wasteful outdated government handout programs that cost tax payers BILLIONS of dollars every year is a good place to start. Corn is $7 a bushel and we are paying framers not to grow it?! :eek::eek::eek: Really? Seriously? We are heading into bankruptcy and still spending like "drunken sailors". (No offense to sailers, I was one also.)

The only thing CPR does is keep farm land in the hands of old rich guys when young farmers are trying to get into the farming business. Investors like Ted Turner (I have nothing against the man what so ever, it is his money, I just don't like giving him my money) buy up the land knowing the government will pay them to do nothing with it. That is wrong and counter productive to allowing young farmers to get into the business of owning a family farm / ranch.

CRP, (welfare to farmers just like welfare to people in big cities) is past its prime and needs to be killed to help the family farm survive. If you can't make a living by the land you own you need to sell it and move into town, and stop sponging off the government.

I own farmland, but I put my money where my mouth is. (Trust me, I have inherited nothing, not a dime.) I canceled all CRP contracts on land I bought 20 years ago. I told the FSA to shove their welfare checks where the sun don't shine. I don't need handouts, or welfare, I work for a living. I put my land back into production growing alfalfa & hay, and row crops. I work the land (or rent it out), and I get paid for the work I do. I don't sit back and collect farmer's welfare, never have, never will. When I can't make enough on the land either in production or rent I will sell it. That used to be the way it worked, but in today's world politicians promise welfare payments (CRP, and other farm subsidies) to rural voters to keep getting elected, and to keep 90 year old farmers from really retiring.

Okay, before this thread gets shut down I promise no more thread drift.

Lets get back to the issue.

Geico has left the building.;)
 
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a warning

This thread is rapidly drifting from the aviation aspects of ethanol into political diatribes. No additional warnings will be given, just closure of the thread if this continues.
 
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Thanks, Sam. All I wanted to know was if we were going to have problems using 15% ethanol premium gas in our 912's, and I THINK the main answer was no. I believe the main concern was the interaction between plastic fuel lines and the ethanol, and I don't think our fuel lines are plastic, as I remember. Thanks
Meade and George
N612RV
 
It was the EPA, not congress that approved 15% ethanol, and only for late model cars--2001 and later.

So 15% presents a practical problem for the gas stations, who carry regular, mid grade and premium. They have 2 tanks and the pump mixes the regular and premium to make mid grade. To carry the 15%, they would have to abandon regular or premium, which would also mean abandoning mid grade, so they could tank the 15%--or go all the way with 15% exclusively and just pump into to newer cars. That so they could sell 15% to those drivers who want 15%, which is not mandatory for those newer cars. And they couldn't sell 15% for older cars--or at least it isn't approved, whatever that means. So how many gas stations will make the change? If you had a gas station, would you abandon the older car market so you could support the ethanol industry? What is the incentive for the gas stations?

Aviation: In Oregon a few dealers carry ethanol free gas which is legal for off road vehicles. A friend went to his usual gas station for the good gas, pumped 5 gallons from the usual pump, then noticed it now had an ethanol sticker on it. So he stopped pumping, took the gas home and put it in his truck. In the process, he noticed the filter showed about 1 teaspoon of water in the bottom, just from that 5 gallons of 10% ethanol gas. I wouldn't fly with that junk.
 
10% ethanol

In the EAA Webinar this evening Dean Vogel from Lockwood said UL high octane gas with 10% ethanol was fine. The concern comes in the fuel system and any hoses, o-rings, or gaskets which might not like the ethanol.

I saw at least one post in this thread about a belief the RV-12's tank and fuel lines, because they are aluminum, would handle the ethanol just fine.
Others please weight-in with experience and opinions about the use of fuel with 10% ethanol.

Also Dean did mention the use of water to remove ethanol and it does result in the removal but lowers the AKI (Anti-Knock Index or octane) so it could make the fuel to low and 91 AKI is the minimum. :eek:
 
in an attempt to get back to OP ...

from reading other VAF threads, there have been [at least] two categories of concern as it relates to ethanol:

  • vapor lock - ethanol has a lower vapor
  • tolerance of gaskets / parts - ethanol breaks down some materials

For new builders, these topics are easier to address than existing aircraft.

I presume the same answers for supporting 10% apply for 15% ?

Are there new concerns when looking at 10% vs 15% (or just an increase of the same concerns) ?
 
I wonder if this will really happen. It was announced this week that corn stocks are at an all-time low. One of the reasons they mention is the use of corn in ethanol production.

That is also one of the reasons given for the rise in food prices worldwide. With luck, our politico's will figure this out and stop forcing it upon us.

Besides, corn should be drunk, not burned.

which is why the ag lobby pushes the use of this useless additive. it does nothing other than line the pockets of the big ag companies and causes significant hardship around the world as food prices skyrocket.
 
which is why the ag lobby pushes the use of this useless additive. it does nothing other than line the pockets of the big ag companies and causes significant hardship around the world as food prices skyrocket.
HOW IS THIS RV RELATED? Don't look like to me you are following Doug's rule's.
 
which is why the ag lobby pushes the use of this useless additive. it does nothing other than line the pockets of the big ag companies and causes significant hardship around the world as food prices skyrocket.
HOW IS THIS RV RELATED? Again looks like to me you are not talking about RV related here.
 
which is why the ag lobby pushes the use of this useless additive. it does nothing other than line the pockets of the big ag companies and causes significant hardship around the world as food prices skyrocket.
HOW IS THIS RV RELATED? Again looks like to me you are not talking about RV related here.
 
This thread is rapidly drifting from the aviation aspects of ethanol into political diatribes. No additional warnings will be given, just closure of the thread if this continues.

Ya Sam you guys are getting my blood pressure pumping. I got banded for sticking up for what I do for a living here. So instead of Doug sticking to his rules that he made I quit donating money. So he is the one that can look in the mirror and not wonder why his donations are down. Ok I'll go back in my hole I came out of.VAF is a STRESS-FREE, civil place for fans of Van's RV kitplanes to virtually socialize. The hope is that when you finish your RV, you fly places and ACTUALLY MEET the people you have met online here. If you consider an RVator thousands of miles away a good friend now, we've done our job! Home of the VAF Forums (rules).
Not to stress-free when you are talking about making me unemployed.
 
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Ya Sam you guys are getting my blood pressure pumping. I got banded for sticking up for what I do for a living here. So instead of Doug sticking to his rules that he made I quit donating money. So he is the one that can look in the mirror and not wonder why his donations are down. Ok I'll go back in my hole I came out of.VAF is a STRESS-FREE, civil place for fans of Van's RV kitplanes to virtually socialize. The hope is that when you finish your RV, you fly places and ACTUALLY MEET the people you have met online here. If you consider an RVator thousands of miles away a good friend now, we've done our job! Home of the VAF Forums (rules).
Not to stress-free when you are talking about making me unemployed.

Touchy! Not too many ethanol lovers here.
 
Ethanol vs. Lead

Trying to get back to RV related ethanol use.
Choosing the better of two evils I pick ethanol over lead any day any time.
Apart from the political aspects, I see no evil issues with using ethanol in any
combination of gasoline/ethanol with a properly set up fuel system. Both lead and ethanol are octane boosters in gasoline. We could all agree that lead is one of the most toxic additives in gasoline where ethanol is... well, not quite drinkable but certainly nowhere near as toxic as lead.
So, for all I care I'll burn pure ethanol or whatever they sell at the local gas pump.
My moto is: Build with the bricks that are available to you.
 
TCP?

For matters of personal convenience (hey, what can I say? I am what I am...) I'm flying with 100LL with AeroShell Sport Plus 4 oil. It's easier to get and doesn't have the stability problems of Mogas, ethanol-laced or not. More frequent oil changes don't bother me too much what with the quick drain valve, which will hopefully allow me to leave the bottom cowl on, and the lower cost of oil as compared to what I was buying for the RV-6. And I'm certainly not keen on replacing gaskets, etc. every five years and/or having to worry about ethanol's affect on the ProSeal holding my fuel in.* Worrying about a 30 day gap in my flying (which can easily happen) is also not something I want to deal with.**

All that said, lead build-up is something that I would obviously prefer to avoid. The Rotax webinar made mention of a product called TCP that "has been a leader in providing pilots a fuel treatment that eliminates lead before it can cause fouling."

Does anyone have any experience with using this product? It's not cheap at almost $44 a quart, so I'd like to know that it does what they say it will do before I buy it. It takes 1 ounce per 10 gallons of gas, which comes out to roughly an additional $.14 per gallon of fuel. Call it $5.50 a gallon instead of $5.35 a gallon going by what I paid yesterday, so it's not prohibitively expensive, but still notable.

Has anyone tried it? Or, for that matter, Decalin RunUp or any other similar product?

* From the SB: "The aluminum used in the tubing and fuel tank should be
impervious to it. But there are other components such as the O rings in the gascolator and fuel pump,
the nylon seal a in the fuel valve, and the tank sealant which may all be harmed by long term exposure.
Periodic replacement or inspection of these items is a good idea. Rotax has recommended a 5 year
replacement schedule for rubber hoses and fittings on their engine."

** I recognize that Van's has had a solid four year history of running a 10% ethanol mix, so these may or may not be valid concerns. However, the convenience of having the fuel I am set up for available at every airport that I am likely to ever land at versus mogas which is not available at any airport in Ohio and would require me to spend a good bit of money on creating a fuel rig (which due to hangar regulations at my airport could not even be stored in my hangar) is a very strong tie-breaker.
 
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Has anyone tried it? Or, for that matter, Decalin RunUp or any other similar product?

Any of the mentioned products will work but I strongly recommend against TCP. The carrier agent is a strong solvent by it self (will soften paint if spilled). It also is not meant to be carried in aircraft which makes it touch to use when refueling away from home.

I recommend you use one of the straight decalin choices.
 
When I use avgas, I always treat it with Decalin. It comes in a plastic container that dispenses one ounce doses. I carry that in a secondary plastic container to avoid any spills. I think it does help. FYI, the Blue RV12 that Mitch Locke uses as a demo has had a steady diet of avgas and Decalin and has performed very well. I think the Rotax has well over 500 hours on it with no issues.
 
I just finished the ROTAX service and maintenance courses. The instructor claimed the lead primarily affects the gear box and valves. From what he said AVGAS would result in a much more expensive overhaul due to part wear. There are several maintenance items and periodicities affected by the use of AVGAS, so if you follow the ROTAX guidelines using AVGAS >30% of the time will increase your maintenance costs.
 
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