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An Unexpected Builder Risk - Radon

David Paule

Well Known Member
Here in this part of Colorado, we often have high levels of radon in our homes. Radon is a radioactive gas that comes out of the ground under our homes. Relatively low doses are a risk for lung cancer. Getting rid of it takes a straight-forward bit of work, which I won't go into, except to mention that it generally includes a suction applied below the house to exhaust the radon before it can enter the home.

You can see a map of the U.S. that shows relative levels across the country at https://www.homefacts.com/radon.html. Click on your state for a closer look by county.

Radon can't be detected except with a radon tester. There's no smell to it.

My neighborhood association has a radon tester and I borrowed it. It spent a week in the unfinished basement, a week in the main part of the house, and a week in the shop, otherwise known as a garage among people who aren't building airplanes there. Since I've been spending 500 to 600 hours a year there, it seemed a good place to check.

The results are in picocuries per liter:

8.8 in the basement,
8.6 in the house,
and 17.9 in the shop.

What's the risk? I'm a non-smoker, and the numbers get much worse for smokers. But at a level of 8, about 15 people per thousand could get lung cancer. Out in the shop, for me, it's probably twice that.

But catch this: there is no safe level! But EPA recommends getting it fixed if it's over 4.0, and even there, the risk is about 7 people per thousand getting lung cancer.

I've got to get quotes and get this thing fixed, for sure. Especially since now it's out on the internet.

Dave
 
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The "fix" is pretty simple - powered ventilation. It's a common thing around here. Pipes under the concrete act as "gas collectors", then a single pipe comes up through the floor where a fan is mounted, followed by a pipe out the wall to the great outdoors.

Not a huge deal, but you're absolutely right - it's important to get it looked after.
 
Radon is a risk for other forms of cancer as well. I discovered high levels in one of my houses by accident. I build two of my airplanes in that house and my Oncologist believes it is the leading candidate for me contracting Lymphoma. My daughter, who grew up in the house, also has Lymphoma.

It's serious stuff. Get it checked and get it fixed.
 
Best of luck on your project. What if you leave the hanger doors open?

I took these readings in the winter, with the house and shop closed up. Certainly, in the summer and in good weather, with the windows open, the amount will be less. But I haven't tested for that condition so far.

Still, even if I reduce the overall annual average to say 40% of these numbers, I still ought to get it fixed.

Dave
 
Radon Mitigation

Quick update.

Made some appointments and got a couple of over-the-phone quotes. We have a decent neighborhood email List and I pulled recommendations off of that.

The house is an old tract home with a full unfinished basement and an attached 2-car garage on slab. The companies that offered a price unseen are running $1,650 to $1,890 for separate systems, one for the house and one for the shop. That'll give you a ballpark if you need to think about this yourself.

It helps to get someone local, familiar with the homes and the conditions in your area.

Out here, with the good weather we've been having, they are busy enough that they have about a two-week lead time.

Dave
 
Dave, the mediation is mostly air movement. Some sealing of cracks in concrete and covering dirt areas are what is done. Radon is in the air, change the air and it is gone.
 
Radon in the Shop or house

Dave,

I recently tested my lower level for radon. It came in at 16 for a 1 year test, then 11 for a 6 week test. :eek:
I received a quote of $950 for mitigation. I did some research and did the work myself. It was straightforward and was not hard. If you can build an RV, this is easy peasy. The cost for materials for me to do the work was about $300.

The retest showed a level at 1.:)

Mark
 
I had to add a Radon system in my basement when I lived in NJ. One system when I moved in and a better system when I went to sell the place.

Having someone install it and "certify" it, is worth the money, if you ever plan on selling the place.

Of course, the prospective buyer will probably retest it.
 
I have some experience with this in the Northeast. In one house I had a low radon level 2 pCi, I had a sump pump put in my basement to lessen a chance of flooding in rainstorms. Little did I know that opening up that hole in the basement caused the radon level to go to 10 pCi. And worse since I had a forced hot air/cooling system, the radon level in the basement was the same in every corner of the top 2 floors. I had a radon remediation system installed (PVC pipe in floor attached to a fan to send the air outside of the house) and the pCi went right back to 2.

In another house in New Hampshire the radon level was 15 pCi before a remediation system was added. My nephew lived near a quarry and his was over 100!

Most people test radon with one time use charcoal canisters but a better approach is to purchase an electronic tester that constantly monitors the air and shows a short and long term trend. Radon levels will substantially vary with rain (goes up) and if my wood stove is running (goes down) as the stove is pulling air out of the basement and sending it up the flue. My radon level also goes up in the summer as a furnace isn't running and sucking air out of the basement. Another benefit of the electronic tester is it made it clear that my fan had died and the radon level had gone right back to 10.

The fan I use is a Family-Safety-Products-Safety-Siren-Pro-Series-3-Radon-Gas-Detector. You can get it at Walmart for about $130. I had it tested by a radon lab in the area and they said it was as accurate as professional electronic devices costing several thousand.

In the Northeast I've read that radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer after smoking. Not something to ignore!
 
Can anyone recommend a good radon test kit? Last I looked at this you had to leave it in the basement for weeks with undisturbed air to get a reading. Have they gotten any better?
 
Can anyone recommend a good radon test kit? Last I looked at this you had to leave it in the basement for weeks with undisturbed air to get a reading. Have they gotten any better?

First Alert's test kit costs about $15, needs 48-72 hrs exposure time, with windows closed. Add another $7 to ship via priority mail, as they claim a high number of standard mail ones do not get to the lab within their required post-test window of time.
 
Just went throught this - health risk not as bad as it first appears

From initial post"
"What's the risk? I'm a non-smoker, and the numbers get much worse for smokers. But at a level of 8, about 15 people per thousand could get lung cancer. Out in the shop, for me, it's probably twice that.

But catch this: there is no safe level! But EPA recommends getting it fixed it it's over 4.0, and even there, the risk is about 7 people per thousand getting lung cancer."

These numbers are for a LIFETIME exposure at these levels. Don't disagree with you and installed a active system myself in my basement. Took the levels from 11 to 1.25
 
We had our house tested and found the levels at 22. With the windows open in the summer before AC season, I got it only down to 11. I bought the mitigation fan system online for around $300 and it took an afternoon to install. There are lots of u tube videos showing how. The levels now in the house are 1 or less sometimes. I have the fan on a timer because it doesn't need to run all the time to keep the levels low. We get winter temps as low as -35C and I haven't noticed the heat bill higher with the fan running. The other plus, besides possibly living longer, is the basement is dryer and more comfortable.

CGLRV
RV6A
 
Radon

Our neighbor's house had a radon problem. I was going to order a kit but a tester makes more sense because it keeps monitoring and it can be moved around. Good tip Dave.
I ordered this one on Amazon.
Corentium Home Radon Detector by Airthings 223 Portable, Lightweight, Easy-to-Use, (3) AAA Battery Operated, USA Version, pCi/L
 
Dave, the mediation is mostly air movement. Some sealing of cracks in concrete and covering dirt areas are what is done. Radon is in the air, change the air and it is gone.

I have never really thought about it but do see your point about sealing things. Doesn't the radon level have to be done when reselling a home? Not in the loop on that but another thing is my new home has one of those fans which suck the old air out of the home, sorry cant pull the name of it out. Would think that would do it hooked to a timer. Dont have a basement either but do have a slab garage guess should check it out. Boyd
 
I have never really thought about it but do see your point about sealing things. Doesn't the radon level have to be done when reselling a home? Not in the loop on that but another thing is my new home has one of those fans which suck the old air out of the home, sorry cant pull the name of it out. Would think that would do it hooked to a timer. Dont have a basement either but do have a slab garage guess should check it out. Boyd

The idea behind a Radon Mitigation System is to grab the Radon from below the home before it gets into the home and vent it outside and above the roofline. A professional installation involves a core drill through the basement slab into the gravel bed or soil below the home and then actively suck the air (and Radon) out and vent it. There's also a manometer labeled to show you that the system is performing.
In my 3 Colorado homes, I had an active system with a pancake fan. Here in WA, I have a passive system that seems to be working well as we tested for Radon and it averaged 2.5 over 3 tests in 3 seasons.
 
All the quotes have come in.

The three that did not come out to the house submitted bids that ran from $1,650 to $1,900 for two independent units.

The two that came out to see the place would charge $1,100 and $1,750. Both of these, recognizing that the shop is adjacent to the house, offered a single unit with two under-the-slab inlets.

Dave
 
I ordered the Safety Siren Pro Series3 Radon Gas Detector form Amazon and got it last week. After several days it registers .6 pCi on the long term display. I'll be watching it for a few months to see how things go. But for right no it looks pretty good.

I was a little worried about Radon because the town I live in is basically a rock with a few handfuls of dirt here and there. My house sits on solid rock.

But so far so good.
 
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Thanks for this thread. I've thought about testing and this prompted me to order a detector. I found my basement area right at the safe threshold in winter with the furnace providing some air circulation. Upstairs is about half.

I'm guessing in summer my basement levels will be above the safe threshold and I'll have to add a system to move some air from outside.

I'll test my hangar soon. It has virtually no circulation but the office where I spend the most time is up on the second story.

It's good to know the actual levels.
 
I found my basement area right at the safe threshold
s.

Problem is, no one really knows what that is, or if it even exists. Most of the data comes from studies of WW II survivors of the atomic bombings. These individuals clearly suffered elevated cancer rates; they also had received huge doses of radiation. What is unknown is how to extrapolate that data to the low levels we?re talking about here. Most of the quoted cancer rates assume a linear (straight line, risk vs dose) extrapolation. Is that correct? No one knows, you can find arguements that it is under- or over- stating the risk! Best advice is probably to shoot for the common standard in the nuclear industry - ?ALARA?, or As Low As Reasonably Achievable.
 
Problem is, no one really knows what that is, or if it even exists. Most of the data comes from studies of WW II survivors of the atomic bombings. These individuals clearly suffered elevated cancer rates; they also had received huge doses of radiation. What is unknown is how to extrapolate that data to the low levels we?re talking about here. Most of the quoted cancer rates assume a linear (straight line, risk vs dose) extrapolation. Is that correct? No one knows, you can find arguements that it is under- or over- stating the risk! Best advice is probably to shoot for the common standard in the nuclear industry - ?ALARA?, or As Low As Reasonably Achievable.

Just going by the Canadian and European recommendations, obviously lower is better as with almost all types of chemical or radiation exposure.
 
....I'm guessing in summer my basement levels will be above the safe threshold and I'll have to add a system to move some air from outside....

If I understand this right, bringing in outside air merely pushes the radon elsewhere, such as into the living area. The systems that are installed here, create a suction under the basement floor, and pipe that outside and above the rain gutters.

Dave
 
If I understand this right, bringing in outside air merely pushes the radon elsewhere, such as into the living area. The systems that are installed here, create a suction under the basement floor, and pipe that outside and above the rain gutters.

Dave
Levels are much lower outside so you are diluting the "dirty" air with "clean" air. Radon concentration has to drop inside. I'd evacuate some of the basement air outside and would pull in clean air from the opposite side of the building.
 
Not only is there no agreed-upon safe minimum ionizing radiation exposure...

a little might actually be good for you.

"While this study was savaged by some because of its
publication in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons,
the journal of an organization of American physicians who work
against socialized medicine, the qualifications of the 14 authors
should overwhelm the lovers of credentials."

http://www.jpands.org/vol18no3/robinson.pdf
 
Another thanks for the thread. My $13 short term test kit arrived today, and the little tray of charcoal is now sitting in my basement... where I've been spending a lot more time lately building wing ribs. We'll see how it turns out. I don't remember if the house was tested when we bought it back in 2001 or not, but we've had a new drain & sump system put in since then so the picture has changed quite a bit.
 
All the quotes came in and I ordered one company to do the work, for $1,095. One guy came out and finished in under 6 hours. Here's what he did:

Caulked the slab perimeters, garage and basement.

Caulked all the cracks and the expansion joints in the slabs. Incidentally, that foam under the door was unrelated to yesterday's work, it was done a long time ago. His work was better. You can see some of it in the photo.

Drilled a hole in the garage floor and another in the basement floor and a third in the wall between them (at the top of the basement wall and the bottom of the garage wall, and finally a fourth through the outside wall. Pipes ran through each of these. All these holes were sealed.

He plumbed the pieces together and installed a continuous-duty exhaust fan at about waist height outside. He connected this up to an existing power outlet that I had out there, after installing a weather-proof cover.

Here's the plumbing tee in the corner of the shop. In the basement, the pipe runs down to the floor and through the floor.

3rBsHr5.jpg


He caulked around the rough-in basement fireplace and used that polyurethane caulk to stick down some heavy plastic to block it off. That should have been done decades ago. In fact, my own guess is that that, plus the expansion cracks in the garage slab, were probably causing the most of the high readings.

It all works. He has a sensor (a simple manometer, but that's a redundant description: manometers themselves are practically dirt-simple) to indicate whether the system is functioning. Still, they want me to wait 2 weeks to retest, so I won't know how well it's performing until then.

The work has a 25 year warranty except for the 5 year motor.

What I had to do for prep was to move everything away from the walls in both places, and clean the joints that were to get caulked. In the basement that wasn't hard; a 2013 flood had forced me to clean it all out. But the shop has things like heavy workbenches that were a pain to move, and of course the shop came to a standstill then. The expansion joints in the floor are filled with a polyurethane caulk that'll take a couple more days to set up. It's very sticky but I found out that if I get it on something while it's fresh and soft, lacquer thinner will take it off. Fortunately I keep that on hand for the shop. But the result is that I won't be doing much work for a day. Still, this morning the goop was noticeably less sticky, so maybe I can get out there later today.

In a couple weeks I'll have to set out the two radon detectors that they supplied and mail them off so that we can see how effective their mitigation has been.

If the above photo isn't visible, try this alternate hosting company.

Dave
 
BS

Radon is a crock. Completely and utterly a made up industry to suck money from people with a little knowledge but no understanding. Like a Hallmark holiday.

Radon gives off alpha particles. They are huge and dont penetrate the skin. Ever. And they dont even travel more than a few inches before quitting. You'll get way more cancer from standing outside on a sunny day than you ever will from Radon.

Look at the progeny and do some homework: http://www.ccnr.org/radon_chart.html

There are no studies that say its unsafe, just a bunch of might be's. Life is full wolf criers and this is one of them. Its like the BS about vaccines being bad because of lead. Hello? The lead is chemically tied up, not free floating.

Anyway, the benefit you are getting is from ventilating your sub floor/home, not because of radon, but because of all the low level outgassing toxics that are in your drywall, carpeting, flooring, decking particles, paint, plastics etc. None of these were an issue until we closed up our homes to make them "heat efficient". Thats the booboo. Your house needs air exchange. You need air exchange. Open your windows up occasionally and let the fresh air in. And that especially means in the winter. Unless you live in Bejing, but thats another issue.
 
Radon is a crock. Completely and utterly a made up industry to suck money from people with a little knowledge but no understanding. Like a Hallmark holiday.

Radon gives off alpha particles. They are huge and dont penetrate the skin. Ever. And they dont even travel more than a few inches before quitting. You'll get way more cancer from standing outside on a sunny day than you ever will from Radon.

Look at the progeny and do some homework: http://www.ccnr.org/radon_chart.html

There are no studies that say its unsafe, just a bunch of might be's. Life is full wolf criers and this is one of them. Its like the BS about vaccines being bad because of lead. Hello? The lead is chemically tied up, not free floating.

Anyway, the benefit you are getting is from ventilating your sub floor/home, not because of radon, but because of all the low level outgassing toxics that are in your drywall, carpeting, flooring, decking particles, paint, plastics etc. None of these were an issue until we closed up our homes to make them "heat efficient". Thats the booboo. Your house needs air exchange. You need air exchange. Open your windows up occasionally and let the fresh air in. And that especially means in the winter. Unless you live in Bejing, but thats another issue.

You certainly might be right about the whole thing being a crock. But, alpha particles, while harmlessly not penetrating skin, are believed to be problematic when emitted directly against lung tissue after being inhaled.
 
You certainly might be right about the whole thing being a crock. But, alpha particles, while harmlessly not penetrating skin, are believed to be problematic when emitted directly against lung tissue after being inhaled.



Yup, just ask this guy if alphas are bad for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko


This isn't affirming the radon hazard discussion, just pointing out the incorrect statements from maniago.

Fun fact, you're probably going to get more dose at flight levels than breathing radon for 5 hours (or most areas of a nuke plant). Food for thought.
 
Look at the progeny and do some homework: http://www.ccnr.org/radon_chart.html
I may just be completely ignorant, but after doing so I'm more inclined to remediate radon in the house if the levels are elevated. I really have virtually no formal education in chemistry, but some of those (like Polonium-210, for example) look pretty much like things I would not want accumulating in the house or workshop.
 
Accumulation in basements (and tightly insulated houses) wouldn't be hazardous if no one breathed in the radon (an "inert" gas like helium, neon, argon, etc.). Alpha decay in close proximity to lung tissues (or the digestive tract in the case of Mr. Litvinenko) by alpha emitters is best avoided as much as reasonably possible, IMHO.

(My 2 cents as a Piled high and Deeper physical chemist, but not a health physicist. :))
 
Radon- more to the story...

Just to throw another log on the fire, I recently found this info.
http://www.forensic-applications.com/radon/radon.html#Charcoal
It?s very interesting and worth a read. Seems the EPA has screwed up the entire radon safety issue.
I?m personally in the less is better camp when it comes to ionizing radiation,even to the point of refusing dental X Rays. I have a self installed radon mitigation system (sub slab depressurization system through the sump pits) but if I had read this earlier I may have not bothered.
 
Got my results back via email today. I used a a short term test, left it for three days with the basement mostly closed up since that's how we normally keep it. 3.1 pCi/L. Is radon is the devil incarnate or nothing to worry about? I still don't know. I'm --> <-- this much less worried about it now though.
 
Post-Mitigation Test Results

With the radon mitigation installation complete and operable, I tested the shop again and got results back today. It's down to 1.2, a very clear improvement.

And additionally, the place has a cleaner, fresher smell.

Dave
 
These threads as to whether radon is bad for you reminds me of the continued debate of the hazzards of smoking. I think the real debate with Radon is what is an acceptable level. The fact is, there are some areas with extremely high levels and some with low. My neighborhood is extremely high at 5 times the debated recommended level. For $300 I put in my own mitigation system that effectively lowered the levels in my home to 25% of recomended level. Did I succumb to some scam so I would buy a fan and ventilate my home? Who cares, I sleep better knowing I may have extended my family's health and my basement is much dryer and more comfortable.

RV6A
CGLRV
 
These threads as to whether radon is bad for you reminds me of the continued debate of the hazzards of smoking. I think the real debate with Radon is what is an acceptable level. The fact is, there are some areas with extremely high levels and some with low. My neighborhood is extremely high at 5 times the debated recommended level. For $300 I put in my own mitigation system that effectively lowered the levels in my home to 25% of recomended level. Did I succumb to some scam so I would buy a fan and ventilate my home? Who cares, I sleep better knowing I may have extended my family's health and my basement is much dryer and more comfortable.

RV6A
CGLRV

Just the basement being dryer is worth the cost.
 
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Im a realtor and I had a couple of home inspectors tell me that radon cannot pass through water, so it?s concentration is highest around the edges of lakes and ponds. That?s where it has to escape.
We get a lot here from the bed rock as well.

Might make sens e to NoT pump that water under the concrete slab out with the sump pump in gh basement if it?s wet.

If you have a negative pressure system, In your house pulling vac under the slab, be sure if you develop cracks in the slab they get caulked (I use marine 5200) because the smallest cracks can negate the system.
 
OK, so if one's house is on a slab, ie, no basement, does that mean no Radon?

The guy in Post 18 kinda hinted at it, but no real good answers followed.
 
Yup, just ask this guy if alphas are bad for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko


This isn't affirming the radon hazard discussion, just pointing out the incorrect statements from maniago.

Fun fact, you're probably going to get more dose at flight levels than breathing radon for 5 hours (or most areas of a nuke plant). Food for thought.

Ugh. Come on guys. Concentration is everything. Yeah I get your worried about concentration of Radon. Ok.

Food for thought. Our world has a level of background radiation that we've evolved to tolerate. Ever wonder why remediation companys dont offer you a giger-counter sweep of your "Radon Hot" basement? Or a radiation exposure-over-time meter, like those that nuc power plant workers, medical radiation technicians etc and such wear? Wouldnt that be a better indication of your exposure risk? No they dont offer that. Because for the majority of us (a small portion of Nevada not withstanding) only have background radiation, and therefore its as normal as sun exposure - which we all know is bad in high doses, but NOT because it simply exists.

Ok I get that I'm paddling up stream, and our mommy/snowflake generations are stuck on this. But theres also another term they seem to like now - Fake News.

Moved on.
 
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