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Rusty Pilot Confessions

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
I felt the need to share my recent experiences of trying to get back current after 24 years of not flying.
This came about since I had just received an AW for my RV 12 and needed to fly it of course. My gut feelings were telling me that you don't "forget" how to fly, so just crank her up and go be a test pilot! Another little voice inside said, hey look at all the old guys that built a plane then had bad experiences trying to fly it. I am lucky, there are several RV12 owners, CFI people, that have a LODA, letter of deviation authority, so they can instruct in their experimental. One was only 500 miles or so away (Jetguy) and I had received good reports from some friends who had used him, so I scheduled myself.
I am so glad I did that. Maybe you don't actually forget how to fly, but I can attest that you can sure get REALLY RUSTY! I could not believe how bad I had become, and had I decided to just go fly it, it would have ended badly for sure.. After 6 hours of dual in an RV12, I had to interrupt for weather and scheduling, and I am STILL not ready to fly this little simple plane by myself. With some more hours, hopefully I will get back my skills as a pilot. If you THINK you are ready, don't chance it, go get some dual and see if you really are.
 
I felt the need to share my recent experiences of trying to get back current after 24 years of not flying.
This came about since I had just received an AW for my RV 12 and needed to fly it of course. My gut feelings were telling me that you don't "forget" how to fly, so just crank her up and go be a test pilot! Another little voice inside said, hey look at all the old guys that built a plane then had bad experiences trying to fly it. I am lucky, there are several RV12 owners, CFI people, that have a LODA, letter of deviation authority, so they can instruct in their experimental. One was only 500 miles or so away (Jetguy) and I had received good reports from some friends who had used him, so I scheduled myself.
I am so glad I did that. Maybe you don't actually forget how to fly, but I can attest that you can sure get REALLY RUSTY! I could not believe how bad I had become, and had I decided to just go fly it, it would have ended badly for sure.. After 6 hours of dual in an RV12, I had to interrupt for weather and scheduling, and I am STILL not ready to fly this little simple plane by myself. With some more hours, hopefully I will get back my skills as a pilot. If you THINK you are ready, don't chance it, go get some dual and see if you really are.

Sounds like you needed a flight review anyway to make you legal.
 
Congratulations

You have a lot of credentials in your signature but one needs to be added.
All around smart guy.
You made a wise decision. Thank you for sharing and thank you for your service.
BTW, I was born and raised in Brownsville. Spent many days in La Feria.
 
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Of course I did need it, but those are often given by pencil, and remember, you cannot flunk or pass one no matter how bad you are. I should have warned against doing an "easy" one also, just to make yourself feel good since you are "legal". Another thing, my insurance company only required one hour of dual, boy THAT would have been a mistake!

Sounds like you needed a flight review anyway to make you legal.
 
Of course I did need it, but those are often given by pencil, and remember, you cannot flunk or pass one no matter how bad you are. I should have warned against doing an "easy" one also, just to make yourself feel good since you are "legal". Another thing, my insurance company only required one hour of dual, boy THAT would have been a mistake!

Given by pencil? I hope not. You are correct that there is no "fail" sign off. But the cfi should not sign off a "pass" unless or until he is satisfied that you meet minimum standards. Don't forget a minimum of one hour ground review, too.
 
When flight reviews first came on the scene, I think that some CFIs might have "pencil-whipped" a few for friends that they regularly flew with.

But I think in today's world of class "B" airspace, transponders, etc. a CFI would have to be almost an idiot to do a "Parker P51" sign off on anything.

And if you don't recognize the "Parker P51" sign off, you are quite young!
 
Agree totally with the extra time. Bought a flying RV-6, that is located in California, getting some tail dragger dual, before trying to fly it back to home here in Alaska.

So far after a 20-year layoff, straight and level was a challenge, for some reason 3-pointers were easy, not so much the wheel landings. Still looking to get some cross-wind TO/Lnd next.

Rusty in many areas, skill is very rusty, thought process is rusty as well as keeping up with the airplane. Knowledge part is going to take more than an hour of ground. Creating a list of questions to sit down with the CFI and go over, plus what ever he has planned.
 
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When flight reviews first came on the scene, I think that some CFIs might have "pencil-whipped" a few for friends that they regularly flew with.

But I think in today's world of class "B" airspace, transponders, etc. a CFI would have to be almost an idiot to do a "Parker P51" sign off on anything.

And if you don't recognize the "Parker P51" sign off, you are quite young!

p51-p51ad.jpg


The Young Guys can read all about it.
 
You said it correctly! I guess I was too embarrassed to admit that even straight and level was a challenge! Landings are my greatest challenge, and that used to be my favorite part of flying! Yeah we are talking about landings in an RV12 being a challenge!

Agree totally with the extra time. Bought a flying RV-6, that is located in California, getting some tail dragger dual, before trying to fly it back to home here in Alaska.

So far after a 20-year layoff, straight and level was a challenge, for some reason 3-pointers were easy, not so much the wheel landings. Still looking to get some cross-wind TO/Lnd next.

Rusty in many areas, skill is very rusty, thought process is rusty as well as keeping up with the airplane. Knowledge part is going to take more than an hour of ground. Creating a list of questions to sit down with the CFI and go over, plus what ever he has planned.
 
After more than a decade of inactivity, I was surprised at how rusty my mind was, even after doing the King recurrency training syllabus. Flying the airplane wasn't too bad... but everything else seemed so foreign. Getting recurrent in a new state (MI instead of CA) and learning Foreflight and modern radio navigation made me feel like I was starting from scratch... or maybe that I should start from scratch. Got my medical and BFR no problem... but I hardly feel like a current pilot at this point. Now that I'm building, that will take most of the time and money... but I will at least seek out some tailwheel recurrency this year. Never want to get that rusty again.
 
I have the best part of 20,000 hours over 40 years flying military fast-jets and widebody transports. But I hadn't flown light aircraft for 35 years. It took me 5 hours of instruction to get comfortable with everything before I did my revalidation check so don't feel bad!

Over the next 18 months or so, I flew 30 hours getting my hand back in and some dual in a RV-10; only then did I feel OK to do my own first flight and test flying. Even then, in retrospect, my recent experience level in light aircraft was barely adequate ..........
 
Don,

I'm in the same boat as you. In 1991 I was sent to do my part in Desert Storm. Prior to leaving I was an active flight instructor in the Darmstadt Military Flying Club. I spent 5 months in Saudi Arabia only to come home to find out that the club president was under criminal investigation for misappropriation of funds. I chose not to return to flying there and vowed I'd get started when I returned to the US in January 1992. As would be expected life got in the way of my passion. I left the military in 1993. I promised my wife that I would let her pursue her career so I put my dreams of flying for a living on hold. I maintained my medical and flight instructor certificate for years until, after deep soul searching that I would not return to flight instructing so I let it expire. In 2000 I bought a RV7 quickbuild and started it. Not long after starting I divorced my wife and sold that kit. Years down the road while helping a friend build his RV7 I decided it was time start building my own. Now that I'm mostly complete...that last 5%. I'm wanting to get back into flying.

A lot has changed since 1991. I've been in the cockpit over the years, but that was not as PIC and I didn't have any of the responsibility or currency of a regular pilot. I've been offered by two CFI friends to do the Parker P51 sign-off. I've chosen not to do that. Maybe its old age and experience, but I don't want to jeopardize my safety and the safety of others just get back into the air. I attended a AOPA Rusty Pilot seminar recently and it really lit a fire inside me to get back in the cockpit. My personal plan was to attend a Private Pilot ground school. Those courses teach the fundamentals of what is necessary to be a pilot. Then I was going to search for a mature in age flight instructor that would be willing to help me polish off the heavy rust on my skills. I may not need those things, but right now my confidence in my abilities is pretty low.

On top of it all I've never flown a tail-wheel airplane. I've thought about buying an inexpensive tail dragger just for the experience, but that seems like it may be a little extreme. I definitely plan on getting one of the guys that teach RV7 transition to get me up to speed before I fly my own. I'll also, ask the friend that I help build his RV7 to do the initial test flite on mine.

I'm really excited about returning to flying. I'm just not sure where to start. If anyone has suggestions I'm open and will consider all.

Rich
 
I stopped flying back in 1991 after my son was born. Always wanted to build an airplane, so I got started in 2008 on my RV-9A. I hadn't been flying much at all in the previous 23 years. During my final assembly at the airport I joined a club, got through the BFR in around 4 hours, then rented for another 10. The hardest part for me was just talking on the radio again. I did 7 hours of transition training locally and that really helped. We did a lot of airport hopping which got me familiar with the local airspace, and a lot of takeoffs/landings.

I really felt comfortable for the first flight, but my first flight was only about 20 minutes. Go around on the first landing attempt (just too high and too fast), but got her down on the second landing. The excitement of the the first flight really overshadowed the nerves. The next dozen flights were much more nerves every time, wondering what might go wrong. After Phase 1, I really wasn't comfortable until I had over 100 hours on the airplane. I really enjoy pattern work and always aim to get better and better with my landings and airmanship. Landings now are the least of my worries. Don't force it and always tell yourself you can go around.

Flying around SoCal, I always get flight following any time I'm headed towards LA. At first it was pretty intimidating to talk to Approach. Practice, practice, practice! Now it is routine. Yesterday flying back from Cable, we were steered around active parachuting sites and a bunch of traffic. Keep your eyes open!
 
22+ Year Layoff

Since others are commenting on their return to flying I thought I would add my two cents. In 2014 a good friend helped me back into the air by renting me his F33 Bonanza and getting me lined up with an instructor. His insurance company required 20 hours of instruction before flying solo.

My instructor was a former military pilot and knew what I needed to focus on which really helped. Like many of the previous comments, the stick and rudder skill set returned first. The harder learning curves were Nav equipment changes, airspace changes, and learning how to manage piston engine and CS prop functions.

Like many military pilots of my generation, I only flew jets in a semi-controlled environment with most of my flying done in a "crew" aircraft. Single pilot VFR and IFR in and out of non-towered airports, VFR flying around Class B and C airspace, "lean vs rich of peak," CS prop management, and GA operations were much slower to build competence in. I still could fly solid instruments, handle challenging crosswinds, and most landings are non-eventful. However, dumb actions still pop up and surprise me.

Any rusty pilot returning to flying needs to commit sufficient resources of time and money to get back safely into the air. A good, experienced instructor is a must.

I bought my RV7A two years ago this next month. The insurance company only required two hours of instruction before solo operations. That was clearly not enough but it was what I got before bringing it home. The next six months were spent learning what I should have learned before solo operations in the RV. Glass cockpit and all the modern avionics in experimental aircraft require time to master. Thank goodness for UTube videos and downloadable avionics manuals.

I also highly recommend studying the "RV Training Syllabus, Lesson Plans, Procedures, Techniques and Handling Characteristics" guide that some wonderful VAF member developed and made available on this forum. That document is truly a "Bible" for RV flying.
 
I also highly recommend studying the "RV Training Syllabus, Lesson Plans, Procedures, Techniques and Handling Characteristics" guide that some wonderful VAF member developed and made available on this forum. That document is truly a "Bible" for RV flying.

Any idea where this might be located at? I checked the safety and the Best of the Best. Could not find it. Sounds like what I've been looking for...

Thank you bringing it up!
 
Don you aren't alone by any stretch--flying is a perishable skill. My IFR skills degrade after just a few weeks of inactivity and my general VFR skills after a few months.

I had a Flight review back in January after a 6-month layoff due to engine issues. I got through it just fine but it certainly wasn't a cake walk.
 
Two other Vac documents you should download

I also highly recommend downloading two Vac "briefings" that provide very useful information. Both can be found near the end of the thread mbauer referred to you.

1. RV Type Performance Academic Briefing
2. RV Type Aerodynamics Academic Briefing

Mr. Vacarro is obviously a very experienced former military instructor pilot and airline pilot. I personally have downloaded his "Guide" and two "Briefings" to the 'iBooks' app on my iPad and refer to them often.

I've also incorporated some of his charts and information into my POH. I've heard plagiarism is a very high form of compliment.
 
Just had a flight review two days ago, and we did all kinds of stuff: aggravated stalls (my term) under the hood and steep turns , ILS to minimums using only the G5, forced landing, all kinds of stuff. Knocked some rust off, even though I'm current, and explored parts of the envelope that I'd not seen in the -9A (although I had in other planes).

And as another poster pointed out, don't forget to review the regs and everything else that has changed since... almost every day, it seems. I've still got to do that.

Ed

PS. There's significant differences in how RVs fly, depending upon long wing / short wing, c.g., fixed pitch or constant speed. Learn how *your* RV flies. Books can be helpful, of course, but books don't fly airplanes. Or crash them.
 
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There is always that guy in the North West, Mike Seager? (might have mangled his name) that has 20,000 hrs of RV instruction under his belt. Hard to imagine a better place to get to know how RVs fly. That guy must have seen every stupid pilot trick in the book and will likely be able to brief you on all the potential mistakes before you make them. And he seems like a really laid back person - perfect for that job.
 
Tail Dragger Endorsement

Have to confess; second time flying in 20 years, had a grin on my face for todays lesson.

Plan to fly down and acquire the RV-6 I bought, but no tailwheel endorsement. That changed today!

CFI flew down from Anchorage in a C-175 that has been converted. Hi lift wing mods, 180HP constant speed etc..Nobody locally to fly with this time of year. Most tailwheels are in getting maintenance for the up coming summer flying season.

Kenai (ENA) had 20+ MPH winds straight down the runway.

CFI John had me doing all kinds of wheel landings, fly down the runway touch and goes as well as stop-n-goes. Short transition flight to Soldotna (SXQ) and maximum deflection cross-winds. Had to keep approach speeds high to fly on the ground with aileron and rudder control.

To make it interesting center line had patches of ice, hard pack snow. Winds were variable gust 10 mph above 15 mph.

The grin left a few times-a work load for sure.

Flew for a couple hours before taking a lunch break. Then back at it. Afternoon the winds lost their gusting. All of a sudden it was pleasant to fly again.

When done was thinking need to reschedule for more, and the CFI said no need. Was impressed with how I dealt with the cross-winds, signed me off. Total time today was 4.5 hours. With previous flight time did the tailwheel in exactly 6-hours.

I feel like today was a good test, but know that lots to learn yet! Next phase will be a PIC checkout in the RV-6.

Oh, I was able to maintain straight and level today!

Feels great to be back in the air again!
 
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... as well as keeping up with the airplane./QUOTE]
Agreed!

I was 'current' when I bought my RV6 and had 7-8 hours differences training but after learning in and flying a Luscombe for 300 hours the RV was very often getting places before my head did.

To be out of flying currency when you leap into an RV for the first time doesn't really bear thinking about!
 
Status Update

For those who wondered how this all worked out, here is an update:
I managed to get in 17.5 hrs of dual with Jetguy, a fine instructor and we got along quite well. The problem is, he is an airline pilot and does this in his off time, between that, my schedule and weather, after four months of working at it, I had 17.5 hours of dual and no flight review - because he said I was not ready! That stung, heck I soloed in only 7 hours the first time! Then I noticed in an FAA publication that one needs one hour of dual for each year of not flying. It has been 24 years, so I felt better.
It was going to be difficult to get more dual with him for some months because of schedule conflicts. There is no RV12 training available down here period. I considered selling the plane, but with an AW and 40 hours to fly off in Phase 1, that probably would not fly (pun intended). Decided that parting it out would be the only solution and started that path, but just could not do it, decided I would rather just let it sit and rot away.
Then came an excellent thought: Buy an RV12 and get a local instructor to finish me out! I could sell it when i was done, and could fly it until I felt good about flying my build! Yesterdau I done just that, bought N756TS, a completed RV12 (less paint). As we speak, Bob Bogash is making plans to fly it down to me so I can resume training. What a maze to navigate just to fly my plane!
 
Great news, Don. I too found it difficult to arrange for the 1 hour of dual required for insurance. At least one other owner in the area decided to just go fly and called them after finishing phase 1.

I took vacation last week and flew almost every day, putting over 20 hours on the Hobbs to finish my phase 1 testing. What fun!
 
Quote: "Then I noticed in an FAA publication that one needs one hour of dual for each year of not flying."

Don --

I am curious as to which FAA publication made this statement?

-- David
 
It is out at the hangar, will dig it out for you. In case I was not clear,
it is NOT a rule or law, it is just the FAA talking about it, actually an adivsory circular I think.

.
Quote: "Then I noticed in an FAA publication that one needs one hour of dual for each year of not flying."

Don --

I am curious as to which FAA publication made this statement?

-- David
 
BUT................

Will dual time in an RV-12 count towards insuring an "Air Force 1"?
 
Yes it seems to, the insurance only wanted one hour of dual in a 12 to cover Air Force One, really silly I think, one hour would have been a disaster.
I was training in a D180 equipped Rotax. I have a Skyview and my prop turns the opposite direction, so will take some adjustment. I really disliked the D180,
hard for my old eyes to read it and all the flipping to get where you want.
Glad I have Skyviews in both of mine.

Will dual time in an RV-12 count towards insuring an "Air Force 1"?
 
OK, I found it. FAA Publication called "Conducting an Effective Flight Review",
page 2, third line from the bottom and I quote:
"For pilots that have not flown at all for several years, a useful "rule of thumb" is to plan one hour of ground training and one hour of flight training for every year the pilot has been out of the cockpit". I had no idea and was surprised that the guidance is in fact seemingly pretty darned accurate.

Quote: "Then I noticed in an FAA publication that one needs one hour of dual for each year of not flying."

Don --

I am curious as to which FAA publication made this statement?

-- David
 
Just a note of self congratulation here - BFR signed off in the logbook today. First update since the initial checkride on 28 May 1979. Nice to be back.
And special thanks to the CFI's out there. What stories you must tell.

Cliff Dominey
Alvin Tx
RV8A N977CD (reserved)
Will get it finished someday.
 
Sine I started this thread, thought I would do a followup, long sad story. I had completed over 17 hours of refresher training, but got a fancy sidestep answer whenever I asked for the promised (in writing) BFR. Still looking for success, I then bought an elsa RV12 to get my flight review (none available down here) and then on to flying my homebuilt. After months of trying to find a flight instructor without success (they all wanted NOTHING to do with that fancy glass panel) I decided to research some more like I should have done in the beginning. A letter to the FAA for the LODA of the instructor I had used without success, and found that his LODA did not even ALLOW HIM to do a flight review!
So, in review after spending about $80k ($70k for a BFR plane and $7k for instruction) and spending (wasting) 22 months trying to get qualified to fly my build, I just gave up. Yep, 50 years of flying, over 800 hrs accident and incident free, and fun with aviation, I found myself just whipped by the system, and sold both planes, the tools, and the hangar. I am 81 and there are those that will say good riddance, you should give it up anyway. As of this date, Air Force 1 has still not yet flown. Now get this: The instructor for the guy that bought the planes would not fly the ELSA either - until I flew with him and taught him about the Skyview and the RV12! Yep, same guy that would not give me a flight review comes to me for lessons!!
I feel the EAA and the FAA have allowed altered flying rules so that it is obviously discouraged, and very well designed to run people like me off, but the same can happen to anyone of any age. I probably sound a bit bitter, that is only because I am!!
 
I appreciate your frustrations. I purchased an RV off a 81 year old gentleman four years ago who had decided to sell because he had a prop strike landing at AirVenture. He claimed an unexpected strong wind gust caused his prop strike.

I won’t say what caused the prop strike on his landing attempt at AirVenture because I wasn’t in the plane but I have now flown this RV over 200 hours and living in Oklahoma have landed it several times with crosswinds in excess of 20 mph and gusty. The aircraft handles these conditions quite well.

I’m 71 and hopefully will be able to fly 3 to 5 more years safely. However, the last thing I want to do is cause an accident because my skills are not up to the task. I especially do not want to cause injury or death.

We all become “too old” to safely act as PIC at some point. I honestly believe flying as PIC beyond age 75 is risky. I’m already feeling my skills weakening and reaction time slowing down. It’s just a fact of life!

The CFI you hired should have spoken up sooner and not allowed you to spend the money on flight instruction that you did if there was any question in his mind as to whether you could safely fly an airplane and pass a BFR. It shouldn’t have taken him 17 hours of instruction to figure that out either. He obviously wasn’t worthy of his CFI designation.

Four years ago I returned to flying after a 22+ year layoff. My insurance company required a minimum of 20 hours dual with an instructor and successfully passing a BFR. When I bought my RV and got owners insurance it again required an additional two hours instruction with an experienced RV CFI (totally insufficient given my recent return to flying). My prior flying experience included a 20 year USAF career with over 3,500 hours, two type ratings, an ATP multi-engine with commercial privileges, and single engine land. Of course instrument rating is part of the ATP licensing.

I will tell you that the required 20 hours and BFR allowed me to fly but I was still dangerous! Honestly, I only now consider myself “proficient” and realize that I’ll never ever be the pilot I once was. Experience is worth a lot and helps us when difficult situations occur. However, it isn’t worth a penny if our skills or judgement has deteriorated due to age.

Like I said in the first sentence: “I appreciate your frustrations” but flying at 81 as PIC (which a BFR says you can do) is not only risky for yourself but also to others. I’m just beginning to understand my own aging processes. Be angry - yes, but don’t blame someone for not wanting to risk his license so you can fly once again.
 
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Sorry

Don,
Sorry you had to do what you did. It?s a shame sometimes that in life, you bend over backwards for folks all the time and then the one time you need a favor or a little help, all you hear is crickets. However, at least you had the fortitude to hear the crickets and not jump in the plane and train yourself with possibly dire consequences. I tried over 3 months to get duel time in a RV-3. I finally gave up and after lots of taxiing and tail up tail down attempts, test pilot I became. Everybody is just so busy including me and trying to work schedules, plane maintenance, perfect weather, and so forth is just discouraging.

I trust that you will find some part of aviation enjoyable during this segment of your life. No one gets out of this world alive and if we are truely blessed, we will all walk in your footsteps one day and look back at the wonderful life we?ve had experiencing the joy of flying and then be able to look ahead for the joys of life that are sure to come.
 
Don,

?I trust that you will find some part of aviation enjoyable during this segment of your life. No one gets out of this world alive and if we are truely blessed, we will all walk in your footsteps one day and look back at the wonderful life we?ve had experiencing the joy of flying and then be able to look ahead for the joys of life that are sure to come?.

Ditto!

Remember, your aviation friends feel your pain and frustrations. If we?re lucky we?ll finish our aviation dream far richer for the experience and joy that it brought us!
 
thanks for the kind comments folks, sympathy is appreciated. I knew all my life I would either get too old to fly or die first, so I can live with that, unwillingly of course.
It would have been a lot easier if just one CFI had the basic honesty to have given a flight review (which you cannot fail) and jotted in my logbook that "this old geezer has no business in the air, and should not be allowed on airport property".
Throughout this whole episode the common thread seems to be greed for money. Nobody ever suggested any course other than one that would result in increased revenue to him. Aviation used to not be that way.
 
When flight reviews first came on the scene, I think that some CFIs might have "pencil-whipped" a few for friends that they regularly flew with.

But I think in today's world of class "B" airspace, transponders, etc. a CFI would have to be almost an idiot to do a "Parker P51" sign off on anything.

And if you don't recognize the "Parker P51" sign off, you are quite young!

I am quite young...
 
I am quite young...

Way back when black pepper and dirt were fairly new inventions, the Parker Pen company came out with a new pen called the Parker P51. It was very popular among aviators.
Pencil whipping an inspection or endorsement became known as a "Parker P51 sign off".
Certainly you are old enough to recognize the term "pencil whipping".
 
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I am quite young...

As in the bragging idiot claims to have "P-51" time in his logbook and his cynical friend says "Yeah, right - Parker 51".

For those who aren't fountain pen guys, much of the competition between companies revolved around ink filling systems and nib development. The Parker 51's almost entirely covered nib was meant to minimize ink-stained fingers. Here's a quick pic of a Parker 51 in all its glory:

Parker_51-aerometric-e1542743887186.jpg
 
I'm sorry for the OPs experience.

I CFI part time and I can attest that long flight reviews are a toughy. I have flown with experienced aviators where in the end we made an agreement where they could continue to fly but with me only. This way they could stay in the air and their flight review sign off was not required.

We would do dawn patrols, short cross countries, or just local stuff so they can still enjoy flying.

Being a CFI is not a money maker. Our insurance isn't cheap and if something ever happens, the first thought you have is "what could I have done different". Being a young CFI with nothing to loose is one thing. An adult who stays in the game to help friends can be a tough line to walk.

In a perfect world everyone we fly with would be prepared, receptive, and excel during training. Unfortunately it isn't always that way and you find yourself asking "why you're doing these reviews in the first place". Not fun.

The real tough part comes when you are asking yourself if a couple more hours should get them up to speed or to call it and have a tough conversation.
 
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I appreciate your comments, thanks for sharing.
I have read and reread everything the FAA prints about flight reviews. The problem I seem to have is that in trying to recoup the costs of insurance and training, too often a CFI apparently views a flight review a "test" to pass, and of course some way to encourage buying what he is selling. I have no problem with a reviewer milking it for a few hours of dual, not a bit.
That said, it seems to me that the revenue is just too little to be worth getting involved. When a zero time student wants to get his PPL, the interest immediately jumps from the zero interest flight revue with a fairly high time pilot to a fever pitch with the zero time student wannabe. It may have happened, but I am unaware of a single case when an accident happens, that the FAA immediately grounds the CFI that signed off the FR.
 
I appreciate your comments, thanks for sharing.
I have read and reread everything the FAA prints about flight reviews. The problem I seem to have is that in trying to recoup the costs of insurance and training, too often a CFI apparently views a flight review a "test" to pass, and of course some way to encourage buying what he is selling. I have no problem with a reviewer milking it for a few hours of dual, not a bit.
That said, it seems to me that the revenue is just too little to be worth getting involved. When a zero time student wants to get his PPL, the interest immediately jumps from the zero interest flight revue with a fairly high time pilot to a fever pitch with the zero time student wannabe. It may have happened, but I am unaware of a single case when an accident happens, that the FAA immediately grounds the CFI that signed off the FR.

?Recoup the costs of insurance?. I don?t carry cfi insurance, and don?t know anyone who does, because the premium for what?s really needed exceeds my annual instruction income.

?Views a flight review as a test?. The FAA?s instructions to cfi?s for flight reviews are to observe the pilot, and determine if he/she meets the relevant (private, commercial) ACS standard. So yes, it is a test of sorts. How else would you describe it?

?...a reviewer milking it for a few hours of dual?. Don, this is plain offensive.

?Zero time student...interest jumps?. Not for me. I loved student instruction, but no longer do it. Too much risk (see next item).

?Unaware of the faa grounding a cfi after an accident?. It?s not the FAA that drives cfi?s defensive behavior. It?s the fear, following an accident, that the grieving spouse and kids and their lawyer will sue for every penny you have. Even if you win the lawsuit, you?re left with tens of thousands of dollars of legal bills. And yes, this has happened.
 
Sidetrack:

If you DO decide to carry CFI insurance, Avemco or whomever will pay for all the lawyers through out the case. This and being covered for 1-2 million (for the grieving spouse law suite) is the exact reason CFI SHOULD carry insurance.

Now the problem as previously stated. To recover your expenses in carrying insurance you will have to instruct "X" amount more. I'm not sure what Don was paying, but here in Dallas, 50-60 / hr is normal.

If one wants to offer instruction in their RV the costs and thus duel required to break even goes up.

So at the end of the day the instructor is left with:

A) Give flight instruction and pray nothing happens ever and you never see the grieving widow

B) Give instruction confidently knowing your covered for anything that may happen today or in the future, but you will either loose money in the process or need to instruct A LOT to brake even.

This is my opinion as to why there's not much instruction available and more specifically with transition training.

Having never met Don I have no idea what the issue was. I'm guessing the CFI started with a good heart to help with a flight review and after she/he saw how much time it was going to take got cold feet or was scared of litigation. I don't know but I hate to hear stories of anyone with a bad experience in GA.
 
For those who wondered how this all worked out, here is an update:
I managed to get in 17.5 hrs of dual with Jetguy, a fine instructor and we got along quite well. The problem is, he is an airline pilot and does this in his off time, between that, my schedule and weather, after four months of working at it, I had 17.5 hours of dual and no flight review - because he said I was not ready! That stung, heck I soloed in only 7 hours the first time! Then I noticed in an FAA publication that one needs one hour of dual for each year of not flying. It has been 24 years, so I felt better.
It was going to be difficult to get more dual with him for some months because of schedule conflicts. There is no RV12 training available down here period. I considered selling the plane, but with an AW and 40 hours to fly off in Phase 1, that probably would not fly (pun intended). Decided that parting it out would be the only solution and started that path, but just could not do it, decided I would rather just let it sit and rot away.
Then came an excellent thought: Buy an RV12 and get a local instructor to finish me out! I could sell it when i was done, and could fly it until I felt good about flying my build! Yesterdau I done just that, bought N756TS, a completed RV12 (less paint). As we speak, Bob Bogash is making plans to fly it down to me so I can resume training. What a maze to navigate just to fly my plane!

Wow Don, seems like a bit much to get back in the saddle. After a seven year hiatus, I found an AOPA rust pilot course, then got a BFR and rented a Warrior to keep current while I looked for my next plane. BFR was 2 flights about an hour each. Both the CFI and I felt comfortable, No need for 5 or 6 more hours.

Fast forward, I wanted a -12iS, but VAN?s wasn?t able to deliver a year ago, still working on pricing and production issues with the -12iS, so I ordered a factory built Sling. Insurance only wanted 15 landings and were happy with the 5 hours I got in transition training. The Sling, IMO flys and handles just like a -12. Truly amazing aircraft.

With your experience I would think you would be good to go with less than 17 hours, but in the end, you are the best judge of you capabilities. Some aren?t as astute. Good Luck and glad to hear you didn?t part out your -12. I wish I had the time to build, if I did, I?d prolly be working on the -12iS.
 
First off to those that took offense, that was never intended. I actually admire any CFI, training someone to fly is a noble calling, one I could never do. Having been a pilot for 50 years I have had my share of BFR and FR, I don't dislike them either, in fact always looked forward to them as a chance to show off my skills.
My insurance only required 1 hour of instruction, it was I that wanted and took 17 hours, after all I was rusty and was about to be a test pilot. It was that CFI that claimed he was going to give me a BFR, was dishonest because his LODA did not allow him to even do that MY mistake for not determining that early on.
I think I have an inkling of how Bob Hoover and ageing commercial pilots have felt.
 
I'm not sure I understand what a LODA has to do with a CFI giving you instruction in an aircraft you (not he) owns? You're not renting his aircraft, so why is a LODA relevant at all?
 
A LODA is a Letter of Deviation Authority granted by the FAA for an Experimental Aircraft owner to give flight instruction in his aircraft. I did not realize that the LODA does NOT allow the use of the aircraft for a BFR since the LODA holder stated he could do a BFR.! That in itself seems to be the height of silliness if you think about it. The CFI can give me 17+ hours of instruction but cannot use any of that instruction for a flight review! I can think of absolutely no reason for this other than to make it impossible for a guy like me to keep flying. It did serve that purpose well. I could not take a FR in my own aircraft, since I have to fly it 40 hours ALONE first. Catch 22 for sure.

instruction
I'm not sure I understand what a LODA has to do with a CFI giving you instruction in an aircraft you (not he) owns? You're not renting his aircraft, so why is a LODA relevant at all?
 
Don,

Why not go our and receive a flight review from a general flight school in a C-150 or whatever. After that, you could fly off your phase 1 and use what you have learned from the 17 hours in the same type?

respectfully
 
You are absolutely correct, I was not careful with my use of words. The deception was very good for him, lots of riding around making $180 per hour watching the scenery fly by.

Don, It appears that the LODA your CFI had allowed him to do Transition Training in his aircraft, not general flight instruction and thus no FRs. This is typical for LODAs granted for Transition Training, if I'm not mistaken.

Obviously, if he promised you an FR, something that he could not give you in that circumstance, that wasn't good.
 
I am flying on my drivers license, cannot fly a C150.
Don,

Why not go our and receive a flight review from a general flight school in a C-150 or whatever. After that, you could fly off your phase 1 and use what you have learned from the 17 hours in the same type?

respectfully
 
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