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leaking fuel tank rivet

jcbarker

Well Known Member
Hello all,
I've got a single rivet on the left tank weaping every time I fill it up. It leaves a stain about the size of a quarter around the the rivet. The rivet is located about three rows out from the wing root and half way between the leading edge and spar. Any ideas on how to fix? I'd like to fix it before I paint.
Thanks,
John
 
Kinda like .....

You mean one that looks like this :( This appeared at about 30 hours and I now have 90 on it. Never drips, just weeps while flying. Vans says to cut out the back baffle and reseal the interior flanges with proseal.... then reseal with a plate, proseal, and sealed pop rivets. Before I do that, I think I am going to try to just drill it out, proseal the heck out of it, then use a selfsealing rivet. If that doesn't work, I'll cut it open and rivet again and completely reseal that bay.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


It's a pain but that's exactly why I didn't paint it to start with. The reason it now has 90 hours and no paint instead of getting it fixed is that darn RV Fun Factor...... Just tooooo much fun to stop and fix :)

Right now, the fix is to just wipe it off every couple of flights!

Bill S
 
Before you remove and crack into an otherwise perfectly good tank, try the self-wicking (green) loctite solution that Van's calls out for in the plans. It may or may not be a permanent solution, but you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by trying. You can always take more drastic measures later.
Good luck.
 
That was what I was thinking but with cyanoacrylate. I thought I might try to encourage it to flow around the rivet by pulling a slight vacuum on the tank using my wife's seal-a-meal (shhh!)
 
Yup, fairly common problem.

You can try a couple different methods. First one is to put a SLIGHT vacuum on the tank and apply some Loctite 209 to the rivet so that it sucks it in and hopefully seals. Search the forums/Internet for 'weeping rivet' to get the details.

2nd method is to purchase the smallest volume of Proseal available, or it's equivalent, and put a tiny dab over the rivet. If you keep this to the bare minimum, you will be able to paint over it and not even know its there. Vans sells a $10 container, which is still 100 times what you will need.

I did the first method prior to painting and it worked for about 3 years, then started weeping again. A week ago I did the2nd method and it seems to be working just fine, although I now have a rivet-head size circle of grey on my otherwise white wing, although its on the bottom, so not typically seen.

If you don't like either of these methods, you will have to open up the tank and seal from the inside.

Erch
 
You mean one that looks like this....
Verified with a manometer or toy balloon, I'm guessing you successfully pressure tested your fuel tanks before installing them. I mention
that because a simple pressure test does have its limitations and you probably have no idea how many words and diagrams I posted on the paint blistering thread in an effort to convey to some skeptical builders why it is entirely possible for the rivets joining the rear baffle to develop blisters even though that particular rivet pattern is located outside the wet area of the fuel tank. As graphically demonstrated in your photo, we can see that any rivet set into the rear baffle can most certainly weep fuel. Given that undeniable reality, it is all the more reason to suspect that IF your fuel tank was painted, by now it may well have started to exhibit the nasty paint blistering around it that so many other builders have reported. BTW, yours is an excellent example of why some builders prefer to hold off on that custom high dollar paint job until after the plane has flown for some period of time and squawks, if any, have been dealt with.

20kyus9.jpg


A viable solution, I believe in your case the repair can be a relatively easy fix with the careful installation of a sealed blind fastener you mentioned in your post. Because your isolated weeper is located along the rear baffle, I believe your plan of action is sound and there is next to no need to take the draconian measure of opening up the fuel tank to attempt an internal repair. For the random weeping rivet that occurs in other locations, the downside of the blind rivet repair strategy is dealing with FOD that is inevitably generated during the solid rivet removal process. The rivet shop head will fall inside the tank and unless the loose remnants are dealt with, there is nothing to stop the debris from potentially migrating.
 
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Before you remove and crack into an otherwise perfectly good tank, try the self-wicking (green) loctite solution that Van's calls out for in the plans. It may or may not be a permanent solution, but you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by trying. You can always take more drastic measures later.
Good luck.

This worked for me.
Had to sand off a bit of paint over the rivet, but it sure beat the alternative.
 
leak along the rear bafle --- easy fix

The leak is along the rear baffle. Remove the tank from the wing. Drill out the rivet. put a dab of proseal in the hole and set a new rivet with a hand squeezer. Wipe off the excess proseal that squeees out with an old rag. Done. Add a dab of proseal to the shop head along the rear baffle for good measure. Pulling the tank is not a lot of fun but not very diffcult. It would not be a bad idea to have an oops rivet handy just in case you over size the hole slightly when drilling out the old rivet.
 
The leak is along the rear baffle. Remove the tank from the wing. Drill out the rivet. put a dab of proseal in the hole and set a new rivet with a hand squeezer. Wipe off the excess proseal that squeezes out with an old rag. Done. Add a dab of proseal to the shop head along the rear baffle for good measure.

I have one weeping rivet in my QB tanks in the same area.

I have considered doing the repair as described above, but am hesitant to do so, as I have concerns about the actual path of the leak not being sealed up this way.

I wonder if you could use a syringe with the tip cut off just enough to make the diameter fit the major diameter of the rivet dimple, block off the back side of the hole in the skin/baffle assembly, and then force some of the proseal into the void that must be leading back to fuel area.

Hope this makes sense, to put it another way, the fuel is leaking past the fillet between the rear baffle, and the tank skin. Just sealing at the rivet does nothing to seal the pathway the fuel is following to get to the rivet area.

Thoughts out there???
 
OK but ....

The leak is along the rear baffle. Remove the tank from the wing. Drill out the rivet. put a dab of proseal in the hole and set a new rivet with a hand squeezer.

Have to admit I thought the baffle flange was on the inside and no way to get a squeezer on the rivet from the outside. If the flange faces out, then that would seem to be the best first effort :)

Thanks, checking plans on next trip to the hangar!

Bill
 
Verified with a manometer or toy balloon, I'm guessing you successfully pressure tested your fuel tanks before installing them.

Yup, did the balloon test with helium balloons so there was no seepage. Balloons stayed up 36 hours and I called it good! Turned out not quite so good :( and glad I waited for paint!

Bill S
7a Arkansas
 
Thanks all for your input. I'm going to try the loctite 209 and vacuum. Hope it works because it's going into the paint shop on Jan 20.
 
My thoughts.....

I have one weeping rivet in my QB tanks in the same area...Thoughts out there???
Mike,

You have a clear idea of the dynamics involved. For the benefit of those builders who may
have some difficulty understanding the forces at work here, I will attempt to outline the 3
"perfect storm" conditions that must occur at the same time to cause a rivet to "weep."

1. The fuel within the tank enters a breach or more technically, a leak path through the
fillet dam along the rear baffle.

2. Continuing its journey, the fuel then finds an open void hidden somewhere in the
skin/baffle faying surface leading to that weeping rivet hole location.

3. The fuel (or its fumes), now pooled in that open void hidden from view in the faying
surface, then moves on to take advantage of the last bastion of proseal defense which
is the lack of sufficient sealant that should be underneath the manufactured head
of the rivet. As a consequence, the fuel pushes its way through the gap, finally escaping
and leaving its tell-tale blue dye on the surface.

All three points of failure must occur at the same time to cause a particular rivet hole
location to "weep." If any one of the three failure points had remained intact, the chain
would have been broken and the rivet would not leak. Just fix any 1 of the 3 failure points
and the problem goes away....technically, that is. I say technically because few people are
actually going to completely remove the back baffle just to get at and repair the mating
faying surfaces as described in point 2. Cutting a hole or a series of holes in the rear
baffle to gain access to the inside of the fuel tank so the fillet dam can be repaired is a far
more practical solution for addressing gross leaks.

2rmb22o.jpg


Now in your situation Mike, you do have options. The easiest fix involves repairing the
sealant boundary underneath the manufactured head of the weeping rivet. LocTite comes
to mind. Its success rate, however, appears to be mixed at best. If you are willing to pull
the tank, replacing that solid rivet with another solid rivet makes sense. If you'd rather
not pull the tank just to fix one single weeping rivet, replacing its solid rivet with a blind
fastener is an option. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there suggesting that
replacing a random weeping rivet with a blind Cherry rivet works well enough.

Faced with your situation, I would try your technique of using a syringe to try to squirt a
bit of proseal into the faying surface before replacing the rivet. Seems like a perfectly
reasonable idea and it can't hurt a darn thing even though it may or may not work. But
after I did that syringe thing and prior to reinserting a new rivet into the hole, I would
make especially sure that the replacement rivet and the countersink is liberally coated
in fresh wet sealer.

If only that single point of failure (3) remains intact because of your repair efforts, that
rivet location will no longer weep because you have effectively interrupted the leak path
that continues to originate from inside the fuel tank.
 
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2rmb22o.jpg




Faced with your situation, I would try your technique of using a syringe to try to squirt a bit of proseal into the
faying surface before replacing the rivet. Seems like a perfectly reasonable idea and it can't hurt a darn thing
even though it may or may not work.

Thanks Rick, what you show in the illustration is exactly what I was trying to describe.

My leak is on the bottom of the wing, so the path is always under fuel, not vapor.

As I see it, the "cant hurt a darn thing even though it may or may not work" is the key to my next step.

My way of looking at things is to try the easiest and/or cheapest first. And move up the ladder if the first fix doesnt work.

As I see it, blind rivet and proseal like I described with a syringe is first step, and if it fails, pull the tank, and cut an access hatch. I do not think the pull the tank, and solid rivet is worth it if the blind rivet wont do the job.

Thanks for your input, it is greatly appreciated.
 
An update:
It turns out that the rivet that was weeping WAS along the baffle flange. My first approach was to drill it out and use a Cherry Max blind rivet. Well... when I drilled out the rivet my drill hit the spar carry thru structure and deflected. ****! So off came the tank so I could take it home and do it right. Drilled it out. Goobered it up with Pro Seal and replaced it with an 1/8 rivet that I shaved the head down. Then I covered the shop head with more Pro Seal. I also applied Pro Seal to the edge of the flange.
Next step is to put gas back in the tank and check for leaks.
I'll keep you posted.
 
I just saw this post. For others with the same problem in the future, try this (worked on 2 different airplanes):

-mix proseal with MEK or Acetone to make it runny. No more than 50/50.
-use a q-tip and dip it in the container.
-dab the proseal mixture over the rivet in question.
-introduce a vacuum into the tank. Be careful with this step. Just barely enough to start sucking in the mixture.
-release the vacuum.
-repeat the process 2 more times. Be sure not to suck any air via the rivet.
-clean the outside of the rivet.
-let the proseal mixture cure for a few days. I waited a week before pressure testing them.

Worked well.
 
Vacuum

Axel, how did you introduce a small vacuum, and how did you make sure you didn't pull too much vacuum?
 
This will sound bad and unhealthy. (with an empty tank) I place a hose over the fuel Fitting. Then placed a cap on the overflow fitting. After that i sucked the air out of the tank using my mouth. Couple of puffs then put my finger over the end of the hose and slowly watch the proseal mixture disapper. May not be the best way to do it but i was concerned to put too much vacuum in the tank.
 
How I repaired my weeping rivet.

I let the fuel level get below the weeping rivet, then I used Loctite, the stuff used for installing liners in engine blocks (green I think) and pushed it into the weeping rivet, after cleaning it. I have refueled the tank 5-6 times and it has been over three months since using the loctite. Still no weeping.
 
I developed the same problem yesterday on a rivet close to the leading edge.

Once I get the fuel level below the rivet, instead of the vacuum, I was thinking of fabricating a syringe with a gasket & push the green loctite into the rivet area.

BTW, My plane's been flying 6 years and this developed yesterday.
Strange how these things crop up out of nowhere.

I'll provide an update when available.
 
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Rivet weeping cured by push method.

I developed the same problem yesterday on a rivet close to the leading edge.

Once I get the fuel level below the rivet, instead of the vacuum, I was thinking of fabricating a syringe with a gasket & push the green loctite into the rivet area.

BTW, My plane's been flying 6 years and this developed yesterday.
Strange how these things crop up out of nowhere.

I'll provide an update when available.

This is an update on my original post.
Seven days into my fix of a weeping rivet, problem solved...

As stated above, I used a a syringe with a 1/2 diameter barrel. I cut & removed the needle mount to expose the 1/2" opening. I made sure the cut was clean & symetrical to allow a perfect seal when placing over the skin & weeping rivet. I used Pliobond as it has a slow cure and is chemical & gas resistant.

To begin the process the fuel level must be below the weeping rivet.
1. Remove the fuel cap.(this will allow a pressure variant)
2. Load a small amount of pliobond into the syringe.
3. Place the opening cut end over the weeping rivet and make sure you have a solid seal against the skin.
4. Depress the syringe. You should feel resistance if you have a solid seal against the skin & providing the push.
5. Repeat step #4 to insure enough pliobond consumes rivet.
6. Let cure for 48 hours to ensure proper seal.

Others have suggested green loctite, which may be a better product. But, I happen to have pliobond that I had previously used & was recommened by Lycoming for crankseal sealing.

Hope this works for your situation. It's a low cost alternative to what others have suggested. Now I just have to come up with a way to remove the blue fuel stain.
 
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Since I am just beginning the construction of my fuel tanks, what is the best way to prevent this from happening in the future? Maybe sometimes this can not be prevented, but I'd sure like to do what ever it takes now so that I never get a weeping rivet!

Any advice to a builder that's just starting the tanks?
 
Since I am just beginning the construction of my fuel tanks, what is the best way to prevent this from happening in the future? Maybe sometimes this can not be prevented, but I'd sure like to do what ever it takes now so that I never get a weeping rivet!
Any advice to a builder that's just starting the tanks?

Read the 100 or so pages in the archives? ;)
 
Leaking rivets

Are the leaking ,seeping rivets located in random areas or more leaks in one area such as the back bulkhead ? I saw Dan H put some access panels on the rear bulkhead to allow proper sealing . How have your tanks held Dan ? What diam. are the access holes ? I am working on my slow build wings and trying to gather as much info before I start on the fuel tanks.
Thanks , Tom
 
Since I am just beginning the construction of my fuel tanks, what is the best way to prevent this from happening in the future? Maybe sometimes this can not be prevented, but I'd sure like to do what ever it takes now so that I never get a weeping rivet!

Any advice to a builder that's just starting the tanks?

I guess, It just happens.
Mine did after 6 years flying.:(
 
Removing left tank to fix this



trails.jpg




Couple rivets on top are "breathing" and I want to fix them properly. Thank you Rick for great illustration of the problem. Invasive surgery will be performed via rear baffle. Boy what a pain to remove the tank with pushrod on the way.
 
Any advice to a builder that's just starting the tanks?

Mine just started leaking at 160 hours and 1.5 years, near the root. I've heard recently that you shouldn't stand on the wing forward of the spar. Probably good advice. As a result, my paint shop didn't install the nonskid forward of the spar.

-Rob
 
Couple rivets on top are "breathing" and I want to fix them properly. Thank you Rick for great illustration of the problem. Invasive surgery will be performed via rear baffle. Boy what a pain to remove the tank with pushrod on the way.

Vlad, why not try the green loctite with a small vacuum in the tank first? If that doesn't work you can always remove it later if that doesn't work.
 
Vlad, why not try the green loctite with a small vacuum in the tank first? If that doesn't work you can always remove it later if that doesn't work.


I want to fix it right way and with a guarantee Tom. Tank is already off.
 
Start here

Since I am just beginning the construction of my fuel tanks, what is the best way to prevent this from happening in the future? Maybe sometimes this can not be prevented, but I'd sure like to do what ever it takes now so that I never get a weeping rivet!

Any advice to a builder that's just starting the tanks?

Mark, start with this thread. Best info and advice on this in my opinion
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=7602
 
Since I am just beginning the construction of my fuel tanks, what is the best way to prevent this from happening in the future? Maybe sometimes this can not be prevented, but I'd sure like to do what ever it takes now so that I never get a weeping rivet!

Any advice to a builder that's just starting the tanks?

Fuel leaks out through unsealed rivet holes and baffle joints.

Use lots of sealant to encapsulate rivet heads and rib joints, especially the fluted rib flange edges and when setting the aft baffle, do not skimp on sealant.

Think - where could fuel possibly leak out - put a glob of sealant over it. :)
 
Fuel leaks out through unsealed rivet holes and baffle joints.

Use lots of sealant to encapsulate rivet heads and rib joints, especially the fluted rib flange edges and when setting the aft baffle, do not skimp on sealant.

Think - where could fuel possibly leak out - put a glob of sealant over it. :)

I totally agree with David. Don't skimp on sealant. I used almost 1 qt per tank on my -10's 30 gallon tanks. I then coated all joint areas red buna-n sealant from ACS. Tested to 1 psi. No leaks so far.
 
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