Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
ECI cylinder problems
- Thread starter nedrose
- Start date
I had 70 hours on my engine when I called about my group "B" cylinder and was given an RMA number to have it replaced with a new cylinder. I gave them my credit card number so they could ship out the new cylinder before receiving the old one. They will credit my card when they receive the bad one.
This was handled as a warranty issue and I can't speak highly enough about how professionally they have handled this. Unfortunately they also replaced a group "A" cylinder on my engine before first start. That issue was also handled completely to my satisfaction.
Stuff happens but they have taken the high road on this one IMHO.
I guess I have a different take on it...
My brand new $26K+ engine was hit the first time around. The engine hadn't even been installed yet in my plane and I had to pay an additional $1,200 to have the 4 cylinders replaced. ECI did provide new cylinders but I had to pay the labor and shipping back to the original powerplant builder. I spoke to Glen? (President) at ECI and he would not cover either the shipping or the labor to replace the cylinders.
I work for a Japanese car manufacturer, and I don't think I could get away with selling you a brand new $26,000 car and on the day you pick it up, I tell you that it will have to be sent back to the factory and repaired, oh, and it's going to cost you another $1,200 bucks!
I think they should have paid for all of it. The engine was still in the crate and these things aren't cheap to begin with. Just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Jon Dembs
Cozy MKIV
My brand new $26K+ engine was hit the first time around. The engine hadn't even been installed yet in my plane and I had to pay an additional $1,200 to have the 4 cylinders replaced. ECI did provide new cylinders but I had to pay the labor and shipping back to the original powerplant builder. I spoke to Glen? (President) at ECI and he would not cover either the shipping or the labor to replace the cylinders.
I work for a Japanese car manufacturer, and I don't think I could get away with selling you a brand new $26,000 car and on the day you pick it up, I tell you that it will have to be sent back to the factory and repaired, oh, and it's going to cost you another $1,200 bucks!
I think they should have paid for all of it. The engine was still in the crate and these things aren't cheap to begin with. Just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Jon Dembs
Cozy MKIV
N8RV
Well Known Member
Jon, I fully understand your feelings. My cylinders are all Group A, so I'm not as bad off. It'll be a pain to be testing them every 50 hours, but I'll have the cowling off for an oil change anyway. Shouldn't be a big deal.
Your analogy seems sound to me. However, as with many analogies, the harsh light of reality often shows their weak spots ...
With the ECI issue, we have to look at it this way: If ECI paid for everything -- shipping, labor to pull the jugs and replace them, etc. -- and went BANKRUPT, we'd get nothing. By everybody taking some of the hit, ECI can (hopefully) keep from going under and we don't lose completely. It sucks, to be sure, but sometimes a compromise is in everyone's best interest.
I guess it's our "penalty" for not buying a factory Lycoming. We all saved some money up front and designed our engines the way we wanted and saved some cash -- and got burned a little. Overall, we still probably came out ahead. Price a new Lycosaur lately?
That's how I see it. If I'd had Group B cylinders, I'm sure I wouldn't be as quick to find fault with your analogy. Hope that softens the blow somewhat.
Thanks Don, In the whole scheme of building a project like these, the $1,200 is a drop in the bucket. I guess we pilots are a more forgiving group than the average consumer. To combine our analogies, I think the average consumer would say fine "let the car manufacturer go out of business for producing an inferior product." We unfortunately, don't have that luxury since we don't have that many competitive cylinder manufacturers to let one go by the wayside.
It does fry me though that after 60+ years of manufacturing the same basic lump, none of them can seem to get it right. Paul Dye accurately pointed out in another thead that all the manufacturers still have issues with jugs from time to time.
Jon
Rick_A
Well Known Member
What I don't understand is ...
... why people are replacing Group B cylinder that pass the visual inspection and compression test that have a lot less then 350 hours.
I've got 130 hrs on my group B cylinders. Why not continue to use them for another 150 - 200 hours and then replace them? My reading of the SB (paragraph C) is that if I pass the initial inspection, I only need to replace them before exceeding 350 hrs.
According to the SB
(B) Replace the cylinder assembly within the next 25 operating hours TIS after the effective date of this AD if the cylinder assembly has 350 or more operating hours TIS on the effective date of this AD.
(C) Replace cylinder assemblies that pass the initial visual inspections and compression tests, before exceeding 350 operating hours TIS after the effective date of this AD.
... why people are replacing Group B cylinder that pass the visual inspection and compression test that have a lot less then 350 hours.
I've got 130 hrs on my group B cylinders. Why not continue to use them for another 150 - 200 hours and then replace them? My reading of the SB (paragraph C) is that if I pass the initial inspection, I only need to replace them before exceeding 350 hrs.
According to the SB
(B) Replace the cylinder assembly within the next 25 operating hours TIS after the effective date of this AD if the cylinder assembly has 350 or more operating hours TIS on the effective date of this AD.
(C) Replace cylinder assemblies that pass the initial visual inspections and compression tests, before exceeding 350 operating hours TIS after the effective date of this AD.
I will see if I can answer this............. The people that jumped on this and called ECI and exchanged their cyl's, got it done for almost nothing. When I called them, them, they said that they would pro rate the cyl,s for 350 hours use, (it would cost me the first 350 hours) and they would exchange the cyl,s and pay labor to install them. And then I was told to go ahead and use up the 350 hours and then send them in.
So I am racking up the hours expecting to replace them this summer. But now they have gone and changed the plan. And anyone that waited is going to get the shaft. And as the recall grows, I expect ECI to back off even more till we are on our own.
Last year my mechanic said I should change the cyl,s before the company goes under, and I said... I don't think there's a problem. I guess I will learn a lesson this summer when I try to replace the cyl's.
This a/c has 300 hours on it, and this will be it's THIRD SET OF ECI CYL,S due to recalls........... do ya think I'm not pis*ed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited:
I have 4 TITANs in the B group. This is the second time around for me. In 2006 all 4 were replaced because of ECI Classic Cast cylinders being defective. This is getting rediculous. Until ECI's repair is FAA approved, I don't feel confident to have it done. Maybe I am missing something here, the AD says to remove and not repair.
jcbarker
Well Known Member
If I read the warranty correctly, it says repair or replace at ECi's discretion. ECi has submitted their alternate means of compliance (to repair instead of replace) to the FAA and is awaiting approval. This is for certified installations. For the experimental market they can roll that in immediately.
I'm pulling the cylinders this weekend. I'll let you all know how it goes.
I'm pulling the cylinders this weekend. I'll let you all know how it goes.
Bubblehead
Well Known Member
Finally caught a break
I bought 4 new ECi cylinders in Nov 2008 and luckily all were in the 56XXX series and not affected by the AD. They replaced 4 cylinders that were on my -8 when I bought it. The original cylinders crapped out after only 100 hours or so. The new ones are going strong after 150 hours.
I bought 4 new ECi cylinders in Nov 2008 and luckily all were in the 56XXX series and not affected by the AD. They replaced 4 cylinders that were on my -8 when I bought it. The original cylinders crapped out after only 100 hours or so. The new ones are going strong after 150 hours.
db8
Well Known Member
I had four of the "bad" cylinders on an engine that had not been run yet. I paid for four new jugs so I could swap them out with the new ones. They said they would credit my card for the cylinders and shipping to me once they received the old ones. We swapped them out this weekend, so the old ones are on their way back.
I'm happy with their customer service. In a perfect world, they would pay for the shipping back and install, but we don't live in a perfect world, so I'm okay with that. I just hope I don't have to replace them again (like some others) -- won't probably be flying for a year +. Dave
I'm happy with their customer service. In a perfect world, they would pay for the shipping back and install, but we don't live in a perfect world, so I'm okay with that. I just hope I don't have to replace them again (like some others) -- won't probably be flying for a year +. Dave
Turbowind
Member
ECI cylinder woes
I have one cylinder that is a 'B' group (210 hours). We removed the cylinder and sent it in several weeks ago. My engine builder asked if I would want the cylinder reworked or replaced with a new one. I told him I would rather have a new one and I expected to pay a pro-rated price for the new one....After a couple weeks and no news from ECI he called to see when the cylinder would be shipped. They told him the cylinder was going to be reworked as it was an experimental engine, the procedure that they are using to repair is of this date 'not FAA approved' and it will be a couple more weeks before it ships...So I will now be getting a repaired ? cylinder by an unapproved method, and it will take over a month....I pay to have it removed and shipped, and the aircraft down for over a month.... I think they should be doing better than this !!!!
I have one cylinder that is a 'B' group (210 hours). We removed the cylinder and sent it in several weeks ago. My engine builder asked if I would want the cylinder reworked or replaced with a new one. I told him I would rather have a new one and I expected to pay a pro-rated price for the new one....After a couple weeks and no news from ECI he called to see when the cylinder would be shipped. They told him the cylinder was going to be reworked as it was an experimental engine, the procedure that they are using to repair is of this date 'not FAA approved' and it will be a couple more weeks before it ships...So I will now be getting a repaired ? cylinder by an unapproved method, and it will take over a month....I pay to have it removed and shipped, and the aircraft down for over a month.... I think they should be doing better than this !!!!
When the first cylinder recall happened ECI gave me 8/02-12/05 as the date range of Group A. I checked the S/Ns and the start number of Group A hasn't changed. So, if you've got something from prior to 3/02 you're in good shape (so far).
Bob
RV-10 N442PM (flying)
Bob
RV-10 N442PM (flying)
Dave Emond
I'm New Here
Rework
Anyone know what the rework is to Group B cylinders ?
Anyone know what the rework is to Group B cylinders ?
KirkGrovesRV8
Well Known Member
Hi Mitch
Ed took my cylinders off first week in Jan and last time I checked in with ECI I am looking at beginning of April before I get mine back
Ed took my cylinders off first week in Jan and last time I checked in with ECI I am looking at beginning of April before I get mine back
For a job that can be done in a day or two, why would ECI want to store your cylinders for over THREE MONTHS!!!
You would think that they would have a better plan.............. Like exchange. Or give you a date to ship yours in, to reduce your down time.Everything I have ever purchased from ECI has been recalled. And this will be the third set of jugs for this motor...........
When I talked to ECI last year at OSHKOSH, they said, go ahead and run em 350? hours and then send them in for a pro-rated exchange on the improved cyl's. And they would also pay a labor amount for R+R. They also said that I could purchase the new cyl's and they would send them right out. Do the exchange and send in my cyl's for credit to reduce down time.
Sure sounded good then. I will see what they have to say this year, if they have a booth at OSHKOSH. I still have his business card.....
I will say this about ECI, My comps have always been over 77 and oil consumption is less than one quart in 30 hours.
Last edited:
ECI
I hand delivered my cylinders on 2/17/10 to ECI in San Antonio. They wanted me to fly my plane until I had 350 hrs. but I couldn't see myself flying with something that might be bad. After seeing their warehouse full of returned cylinders stacked everywhere I could see why they wanted me to wait. ECI thought the cylinders would be coming in gradually to be rebuilt but it appears that many others felt like I did. They also told me the turnaround should be 7 weeks but I think that is optimistic. I still believe ECI is doing the best they can in a bad situation.
GP
I hand delivered my cylinders on 2/17/10 to ECI in San Antonio. They wanted me to fly my plane until I had 350 hrs. but I couldn't see myself flying with something that might be bad. After seeing their warehouse full of returned cylinders stacked everywhere I could see why they wanted me to wait. ECI thought the cylinders would be coming in gradually to be rebuilt but it appears that many others felt like I did. They also told me the turnaround should be 7 weeks but I think that is optimistic. I still believe ECI is doing the best they can in a bad situation.
GP
Gunter Malich
Member
Cylinder Backlog
I spoke with ECi a week ago, in prep for sending in my cylinders. They said that they were still setting up their rework assembly line, and that they hadn't yet started working on any of the returned cylinders. That would explain the warehouse full of cylinders. There was no specific word on how long it would take to clear that backlog, but I would expect it would take some time.
Another item of interest: They are preparing an engine test bed, so that they can run endurance tests on their rework process. This test is part of their submission to the FAA to accept their proposed "Alternate Means of Compliance". I suspect it will be quite some time before the AMOC is formally authorized, but when (if?) it is there will probably be a lot of cylinders sent in.
I want to get my cylinders worked before that onslought creates an even bigger backlog.
I spoke with ECi a week ago, in prep for sending in my cylinders. They said that they were still setting up their rework assembly line, and that they hadn't yet started working on any of the returned cylinders. That would explain the warehouse full of cylinders. There was no specific word on how long it would take to clear that backlog, but I would expect it would take some time.
Another item of interest: They are preparing an engine test bed, so that they can run endurance tests on their rework process. This test is part of their submission to the FAA to accept their proposed "Alternate Means of Compliance". I suspect it will be quite some time before the AMOC is formally authorized, but when (if?) it is there will probably be a lot of cylinders sent in.
I want to get my cylinders worked before that onslought creates an even bigger backlog.
Turbowind
Member
ECI update
We are coming up on 2 months since I sent my "B" cylinder in...Promises of shipping dates etc made and broken....Status of reworked or new replacement unclear....What is clear, there is no standard customer oriented program in place to facilitate an orderly replacement of your cylinders...
We are coming up on 2 months since I sent my "B" cylinder in...Promises of shipping dates etc made and broken....Status of reworked or new replacement unclear....What is clear, there is no standard customer oriented program in place to facilitate an orderly replacement of your cylinders...
I had them send me a new cylinder and put it on my credit card. Had it in a week and a half. Returned my Group B cylinder, after installing the new one, and got a full credit on my card. Simple with no hassle. Plane was down for less than a week.We are coming up on 2 months since I sent my "B" cylinder in...Promises of shipping dates etc made and broken....Status of reworked or new replacement unclear....What is clear, there is no standard customer oriented program in place to facilitate an orderly replacement of your cylinders...
Steve, When did this happen? That was ECI"S plan at the start, but I don't think that they are doing that any more.
KirkGrovesRV8
Well Known Member
You are right, ECI is now treating group B cylinders in the same way group A cylinders are. A good buddy of mine had 2 group Bs one group A and one unaffected and they gave him 4 new cylinders for 485$ He was lucky and acted quick, now he would be in the same boat as me waiting.
First, JB at ECI has a tough job being the front man for this problem. Would not want that job.
The last update he gave me was about three weeks ago. At that time, they had just received FAA approval for the rework process, but no work on any cylinders had been done. He said then that it would be at least another 6 to 8 weeks for my four Group A cylinders (352 hours on them when removed) which were delivered to ECI on 12/29/09.
I hope they pick up the pace. We'll see.
The last update he gave me was about three weeks ago. At that time, they had just received FAA approval for the rework process, but no work on any cylinders had been done. He said then that it would be at least another 6 to 8 weeks for my four Group A cylinders (352 hours on them when removed) which were delivered to ECI on 12/29/09.
I hope they pick up the pace. We'll see.
I applied for my RMA # January 4th, right after the SB came out. My engine only had 70 hours on it at the time and they gave me a new cylinder under the warranty. I went ahead and prepaid the new cylinder so I could get the replacement in my hands as soon as possible and to minimize the down time. I have since returned the cylinder I removed and my credit card has been credited with the full purchase price of the cylinder.
KirkGrovesRV8
Well Known Member
Update
Hi guys,
I sent a email to JB at ECI today and found out that 2 of my cylinders are in assembly now and should be back to me in a week or two, they also found indications of slight cracks in the other 2 cylinders and are giving me 2 new cylinders!
SO hopefully I will be back in the air in a couple weeks YAY!!!
Hi guys,
I sent a email to JB at ECI today and found out that 2 of my cylinders are in assembly now and should be back to me in a week or two, they also found indications of slight cracks in the other 2 cylinders and are giving me 2 new cylinders!
SO hopefully I will be back in the air in a couple weeks YAY!!!
erich weaver
Well Known Member
Kirk
What group were the cracked cylinders in - the lower risk group requiring regular 50-hr inspections, or the other group that originally required replacement by some relatively low hour time? I cant remember now which is 'A' and which is 'B' group.
thanks
erich
What group were the cracked cylinders in - the lower risk group requiring regular 50-hr inspections, or the other group that originally required replacement by some relatively low hour time? I cant remember now which is 'A' and which is 'B' group.
thanks
erich
KirkGrovesRV8
Well Known Member
Hi Erich,
All four of my cylinders were the group A, which was the do compression checks every 50hrs. They were the group that were not supposed to be as bad, but I know of three group A jugs that have cracked so I am aweful glad I did not listen to all the folks telling me don't worry about it, turns out I was flying with 2 cracked jugs!!
All the Best!
All four of my cylinders were the group A, which was the do compression checks every 50hrs. They were the group that were not supposed to be as bad, but I know of three group A jugs that have cracked so I am aweful glad I did not listen to all the folks telling me don't worry about it, turns out I was flying with 2 cracked jugs!!
All the Best!
All the previous posts make my situation no different. I am in group B, sent back to ECI because of concerns with the company stibility, and it has been about 6 weeks now. My rep. Joe Trampota, is a nice enough guy but keeps telling me "2 weeks" then another and another.
One of the prior post who saw the hugh number of cylinders at ECI I am sure their task is enormous. The ones who got replaced with new were lucky because the rework or 25% off ($720 each) for a new set of 4 was all they would do for me with my purchase in 2006 and 220 hours of my group B cylinders. And if any of my cylinders do not pass the rework they will be replaced with "like time" cylinders, not new.
The other curious thing was ECI told me if these cylinders were on a certified aircraft they would be replace with new, but because it is experimental the rework is authorized. Interesting
Good luck all. I believe many of us will be sitting around with a pile of engine parts in our hangar for the better part of spring.
One of the prior post who saw the hugh number of cylinders at ECI I am sure their task is enormous. The ones who got replaced with new were lucky because the rework or 25% off ($720 each) for a new set of 4 was all they would do for me with my purchase in 2006 and 220 hours of my group B cylinders. And if any of my cylinders do not pass the rework they will be replaced with "like time" cylinders, not new.
The other curious thing was ECI told me if these cylinders were on a certified aircraft they would be replace with new, but because it is experimental the rework is authorized. Interesting
Good luck all. I believe many of us will be sitting around with a pile of engine parts in our hangar for the better part of spring.
Last edited:
tc1234c
Well Known Member
At least now I have a delivery date.
I sent my 4 Group A cylinders in and they arrived at ECi on Feb 10th. Last night I received an email giving me a sales order number (dated March 18) and an estimated delivery date of April 17th (I assume this is deliver to shipping date). If they keep the promised delivery date, I will be down for almost three months.
I sent my 4 Group A cylinders in and they arrived at ECi on Feb 10th. Last night I received an email giving me a sales order number (dated March 18) and an estimated delivery date of April 17th (I assume this is deliver to shipping date). If they keep the promised delivery date, I will be down for almost three months.
Krik, does the rework for the group A cylinders reomve the AD, or will you still have to do the 50 hour compression tests?
I have four group A cylinders that only have 170 hours TIS and are out of warranty. Can't live with the 50 hour inspections, so I guess I'll have to buy new...
KirkGrovesRV8
Well Known Member
Call ECI and talk to them, in my case they ended up giving me 4 new cylinders. At the very least you should be able to get a heavy heavy discount on some cylinders.
All the Best!
All the Best!
Group A Blues
Called ECI today. Told them I couldn't live with the 50 hour inspections. I realize that my cylinders, although they only have 170 hours on them, are out of warranty. Asked about the AMOC, and was told it is not yet approved.
The best solution they offered was 25% off new cylinders. Sounds like different people are getting different deals.
Called ECI today. Told them I couldn't live with the 50 hour inspections. I realize that my cylinders, although they only have 170 hours on them, are out of warranty. Asked about the AMOC, and was told it is not yet approved.
The best solution they offered was 25% off new cylinders. Sounds like different people are getting different deals.
az_gila
Well Known Member
The tolerances...
...might be too difficult to meet for the AMOC.
As I understand it, the repair procedure is to screw on a new cylinder head to the existing steel cylinder and have it line up perfectly with the existing mounting bolt holes.
In normal production, the heads are first screwed on, and then the mounting bolt holes are drilled with reference to the cylinder head.
Doing things in the reverse order makes it difficult to meet exact tolerances. If the head is not perfectly oriented after being screwed on, the rocker shaft will be "tilted" with respect to the case.
Does anyone else have info on the AMOC repair procedures? Is my info on the production sequence correct?
...might be too difficult to meet for the AMOC.
As I understand it, the repair procedure is to screw on a new cylinder head to the existing steel cylinder and have it line up perfectly with the existing mounting bolt holes.
In normal production, the heads are first screwed on, and then the mounting bolt holes are drilled with reference to the cylinder head.
Doing things in the reverse order makes it difficult to meet exact tolerances. If the head is not perfectly oriented after being screwed on, the rocker shaft will be "tilted" with respect to the case.
Does anyone else have info on the AMOC repair procedures? Is my info on the production sequence correct?
TomVal
Well Known Member
I had 161 hours on my cylinders. They also offered 25% off, I asked that they try to do better, they came back with 27% off !
I wanted new versus rebuilt cylinders, so I wrote the check.Regards,
cbo111
Active Member
ECI now offering ZIP!
He made a curious rationalization that there were very few problems with the group A cylinders, no more that any other failures that occur industry-wide. Therefore, no relief was being offered. This gets back to the question of why the group A cylinders are included in this AD in the first place?
Consider yourself lucky for getting 27% off. I just talked to JB about my four group A cylinders. He said there was no deals being offered at the present time. No rework, no replacement, no discount of any kind. This translates to literally no relief from the AD. Correction....I can pay full retail to replace my low-time cylinders to solve the AD problem. Thanks ECI!!I had 161 hours on my cylinders. They also offered 25% off, I asked that they try to do better, they came back with 27% off !
Regards,
He made a curious rationalization that there were very few problems with the group A cylinders, no more that any other failures that occur industry-wide. Therefore, no relief was being offered. This gets back to the question of why the group A cylinders are included in this AD in the first place?
Rick_A
Well Known Member
Serial numbers Group A & Group B
For reference, the AD is 2009-26-12. It applies to parallel valve engines only with cylinder assembly P/N AEL65102 and with cylinder head P/N AEL85099.
The Group A serial #'s are: 1138-02 through 35171-22.
The Group B serial #'s are 35239-01 through 42179-30.
My reading of the AD is that Group A cylinders that pass the inspection specified in the AD do NOT need to be replaced before their 2000 hr TBO.
Group B - we're not quite so lucky.
For reference, the AD is 2009-26-12. It applies to parallel valve engines only with cylinder assembly P/N AEL65102 and with cylinder head P/N AEL85099.
The Group A serial #'s are: 1138-02 through 35171-22.
The Group B serial #'s are 35239-01 through 42179-30.
My reading of the AD is that Group A cylinders that pass the inspection specified in the AD do NOT need to be replaced before their 2000 hr TBO.
Group B - we're not quite so lucky.
