olderthandirt, if you asking how to connect the John Deere regulator, then
Go to THIS THREAD and scroll down to posts 52 and 53 and 62.
Go to THIS THREAD and scroll down to posts 52 and 53 and 62.
Van's Air Force
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One more bad Voltage Regulator
- Thread starter WingedFrog
- Start date
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Failed regulator
Yes it was first flight ever, so looking forward to flying after spending 8 months building this plane...but it now sits waiting for $233.00 dollar regulator..this includes shipping...think I will order a John Deer regulator for standby..they cost $38.00....the interesting thing is working with Van's to get warranty for this item..because CPS says Van's has to cover warranty..will keep all posted.
Yes it was first flight ever, so looking forward to flying after spending 8 months building this plane...but it now sits waiting for $233.00 dollar regulator..this includes shipping...think I will order a John Deer regulator for standby..they cost $38.00....the interesting thing is working with Van's to get warranty for this item..because CPS says Van's has to cover warranty..will keep all posted.
Indications of a failure after just one flight would make me much more suspect of a loose wiring connection or something similar.
This type of cause has been quite common with new RV-12's.
I would recommend some detailed troubleshooting before jumping to an expensive purchase just because the service history makes a regulator failure seem the likely cause.
BTW, there must be some mis-communication from the person you talked with at CPS, or they do not know what they are talking about.
Rotax has a very specific process to follow for warranty claims here in the USA. It is done only through one of its designated dealers (of which CPS is one, or you wouldn't be able to purchase parts from them). Van's doesn't, and can't, have anything to do with a warranty part on a Rotax engine.
Page 9 of THIS DOCUMENT details the warranty claim requirements
This type of cause has been quite common with new RV-12's.
I would recommend some detailed troubleshooting before jumping to an expensive purchase just because the service history makes a regulator failure seem the likely cause.
BTW, there must be some mis-communication from the person you talked with at CPS, or they do not know what they are talking about.
Rotax has a very specific process to follow for warranty claims here in the USA. It is done only through one of its designated dealers (of which CPS is one, or you wouldn't be able to purchase parts from them). Van's doesn't, and can't, have anything to do with a warranty part on a Rotax engine.
Page 9 of THIS DOCUMENT details the warranty claim requirements
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olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Regulator failure
Scott; Why then when I did check as outlined by Van's did the alternator show 13+ and the output to battery show 6volts...if it was a loose wire...as for warrenty, CPS said it was Van's responsibility and Van's said it was CPS responsilbilty...think we are talking to different worlds???
Scott; Why then when I did check as outlined by Van's did the alternator show 13+ and the output to battery show 6volts...if it was a loose wire...as for warrenty, CPS said it was Van's responsibility and Van's said it was CPS responsilbilty...think we are talking to different worlds???
Did you click on the link for the document (and then look at page 9) that I put in my previous post?
It is the official process for making a warranty claim and it directly contradicts what the person at CPS told you.
You weren't being specific about where you made your measurements for those voltage values so my comment was based on a lack of detailed information.
It may very well be bad, all I am saying is that I think the probability of it being something else is higher.
Read THIS about troubleshooting the Rotax regulator.
Make sure the alternator is putting out more than 20 VAC at higher RPM.
Make sure the regulator case is very well grounded.
Connect a black voltmeter lead to the regulator case and measure the voltage on terminals R and B and C. The voltage on each should be the same as battery voltage.
Using a spare male fast-on terminal, insert it into each female fast-on terminal of the regulator electrical connector. Each female terminal should have a firm grip.
Make sure the alternator is putting out more than 20 VAC at higher RPM.
Make sure the regulator case is very well grounded.
Connect a black voltmeter lead to the regulator case and measure the voltage on terminals R and B and C. The voltage on each should be the same as battery voltage.
Using a spare male fast-on terminal, insert it into each female fast-on terminal of the regulator electrical connector. Each female terminal should have a firm grip.
olderthandirt,
You posted above that the output to battery was 6 volts. There has to be some kind of wiring problem or blown fuse to have only 6 volts. The battery obviously has 12 volts because it started the engine. Since the battery is connected to the regulator when the master switch is on, there should be 12 volts at the regulator whether the regulator is working or not.
It looks like Scott is right as usual when he said, "the probability of it being something else is higher".
You posted above that the output to battery was 6 volts. There has to be some kind of wiring problem or blown fuse to have only 6 volts. The battery obviously has 12 volts because it started the engine. Since the battery is connected to the regulator when the master switch is on, there should be 12 volts at the regulator whether the regulator is working or not.
It looks like Scott is right as usual when he said, "the probability of it being something else is higher".
Piper J3
Well Known Member
I think he meant to say 6 amps...
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Failed regulator
Thank you Mich for testing information. I did test the yellow wires and they showed 13+volts AC...with engine running at idle..then I tested the two white wires and they showed 6volts DC...not amps...did not test single yellow wire...all I can hope for is the new regulator fixes problem or I'm in deep trouble...I live on Island with no mechanics available..so the solution has to come from me..or you guys
Thank you Mich for testing information. I did test the yellow wires and they showed 13+volts AC...with engine running at idle..then I tested the two white wires and they showed 6volts DC...not amps...did not test single yellow wire...all I can hope for is the new regulator fixes problem or I'm in deep trouble...I live on Island with no mechanics available..so the solution has to come from me..or you guys
With the master switch on, the two white wires going to the voltage regulator should have battery voltage on them. If not, then either the white wires are not connected at the other end or else the 30 amp fuse is blown. Also make sure the small yellow wire connected to terminal "C" has battery voltage on it. That small yellow wire is protected by a 1 amp fuse in Skyview systems.
Follow Joe's advice, he knows what he is talking about and will walk you through the troubleshooting process.
Please be clear when reporting voltage readings. You did not say where these voltages were referenced. The AC into the regulator should be read across the two G terminals, not ground. All DC reading should be referenced to ground, a known good ground. Before starting did you confirm your meter reads correctly on the DC volts scale by testing in on a know voltage?
Please be clear when reporting voltage readings. You did not say where these voltages were referenced. The AC into the regulator should be read across the two G terminals, not ground. All DC reading should be referenced to ground, a known good ground. Before starting did you confirm your meter reads correctly on the DC volts scale by testing in on a know voltage?
rapid_ascent
Well Known Member
Sorry but I didn't read all 17 pages of posts. I did want to offer some comments. I suspect this part was reworked or repaired during production. If you look at the quality of the solder joints on the rest of the board they are much better than the ones on the part in question. I suspect that the board was run through the wave solder machine and it didn't pass its production test. Then the tech replaced the part and did so with poor soldering. The unit worked, but it didn't last as long as it should.
To seal the unit back up you can either buy some conformal coating and spray the PCB or you can buy some potting compound and pour than stuff in the enclosure. Potting compound is very messy stuff. Think of fuel tank sealant. You won't be able to get access to the parts again if you use the potting compound. Conformal coating can be reworked again but it isn't as good of a seal, and it doesn't provide any mechanical support. I think you can get both from somewhere like Mouser, Allied Electronics or Digikey.
To seal the unit back up you can either buy some conformal coating and spray the PCB or you can buy some potting compound and pour than stuff in the enclosure. Potting compound is very messy stuff. Think of fuel tank sealant. You won't be able to get access to the parts again if you use the potting compound. Conformal coating can be reworked again but it isn't as good of a seal, and it doesn't provide any mechanical support. I think you can get both from somewhere like Mouser, Allied Electronics or Digikey.
rapid_ascent
Well Known Member
Sorry but I didn't read all 17 pages of posts. I did want to offer some comments. I suspect this part was reworked or repaired during production. If you look at the quality of the solder joints on the rest of the board they are much better than the ones on the part in question. I suspect that the board was run through the wave solder machine and it didn't pass its production test. Then the tech replaced the part and did so with poor soldering. The unit worked, but it didn't last as long as it should.
To seal the unit back up you can either buy some conformal coating and spray the PCB or you can buy some potting compound and pour than stuff in the enclosure. Potting compound is very messy stuff. Think of fuel tank sealant. You won't be able to get access to the parts again if you use the potting compound. Conformal coating can be reworked again but it isn't as good of a seal, and it doesn't provide any mechanical support. I think you can get both from somewhere like Mouser, Allied Electronics or Digikey.
To seal the unit back up you can either buy some conformal coating and spray the PCB or you can buy some potting compound and pour than stuff in the enclosure. Potting compound is very messy stuff. Think of fuel tank sealant. You won't be able to get access to the parts again if you use the potting compound. Conformal coating can be reworked again but it isn't as good of a seal, and it doesn't provide any mechanical support. I think you can get both from somewhere like Mouser, Allied Electronics or Digikey.
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Failing regulator
Scott; Today I went to plane and put regulator back in with a dedicated ground to chassis...made sure all connections secure and went flying...still shows a =6amp draw and battery went from 12.4 to 12.2 on short flight...think this regulator is toast even though it has been in service less than two hours...when new regulator comes I surely hope it solves this problem or what then??? As for warranty Josh at CMS said Van's was responsible for warranty claim and Van's said CMS was responsible for warranty claim...think no one wants to own up to covering a brand new regulator failing..
Scott; Today I went to plane and put regulator back in with a dedicated ground to chassis...made sure all connections secure and went flying...still shows a =6amp draw and battery went from 12.4 to 12.2 on short flight...think this regulator is toast even though it has been in service less than two hours...when new regulator comes I surely hope it solves this problem or what then??? As for warranty Josh at CMS said Van's was responsible for warranty claim and Van's said CMS was responsible for warranty claim...think no one wants to own up to covering a brand new regulator failing..
Is the 6 Amp draw + 6 AMPS, or - 6 AMPS?
The Skyview amp meter is wired to show the AMP value that the charging system is supplying, not the AMP value that is being pulled from the battery (unless it is a negative value)
It is normal for the voltage to drop into the 12's when the engine is idling. What is the voltage when the engine is at high power?
As for warranty process... I ask again..... did you go to the document I linked to in my original post and read page 9? (you get to the link by clicking on the THIS DOCUMENT.
It doesn't matter what anyone else says about the process. This document is what Rotax published regarding the official process that must be followed. If you want to know what to do... read the document.
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Reply
Scott; the draw on EFIS is -6amps...and when first starting out the battery shows 12.4 volts..then after short flight it shows12.2 volts..so charging is not keeping up with draw??
Scott; the draw on EFIS is -6amps...and when first starting out the battery shows 12.4 volts..then after short flight it shows12.2 volts..so charging is not keeping up with draw??
KALEWIS
Well Known Member
What is the voltage DURING cruise at high RPM? Usually above 3500 RPM you should see 13.0 V - 14.0V. ours is usually at 13.8 at cruise RPM setting
If it is minus 6 then that is correct (and if you said -6 previously I apologize... I don't remember seeing that).
The Rotax document for warranty claim requirements can be accessed by clicking HERE
Read page 9. It is pretty clear what the requirements are.
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
o.k. forget warrenty
Scott; So now I installed new Ducati regulator..($175.00) and it is reading the same on EFIS..that is: -6 amps draw... and the Batt. shows 12.4 volts..this time up in flight now discharge of battery..that is it stayed at 12.4 volts...even though the amp draw shows -6..maybe this is what it should be and because I am not familiar with EFIS I don't know what it should be??? So I ordered a $175.00 regulator for nothing...another lesson learned the hard way..Dick
Scott; So now I installed new Ducati regulator..($175.00) and it is reading the same on EFIS..that is: -6 amps draw... and the Batt. shows 12.4 volts..this time up in flight now discharge of battery..that is it stayed at 12.4 volts...even though the amp draw shows -6..maybe this is what it should be and because I am not familiar with EFIS I don't know what it should be??? So I ordered a $175.00 regulator for nothing...another lesson learned the hard way..Dick
DHeal
Well Known Member
As a point of reference, my RV-12 consistently shows 13.9 volts and +1 amp when in cruise flight @ 5,250 rpm with all electrical systems working (avionics, lights, etc.). I have given up trying to reconcile the readings at any other power setting.
But when the amps go to -6 or so and the battery voltage starts dropping below 12 volts at moderate rpm settings, you likely have a failed VR. YMMV
FYI -- My original Ducati VR (on F/W shelf with cooling shroud) failed @ 135 hours. I mounted the replacement Ducati VR under the avionics shelf per Van's and is working fine with 215 hours on it. Fingers crossed!
But when the amps go to -6 or so and the battery voltage starts dropping below 12 volts at moderate rpm settings, you likely have a failed VR. YMMV
FYI -- My original Ducati VR (on F/W shelf with cooling shroud) failed @ 135 hours. I mounted the replacement Ducati VR under the avionics shelf per Van's and is working fine with 215 hours on it. Fingers crossed!
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Dick,
I and others want to help but we need more information like the results from the tests that I suggested in post 157 and the voltage at high RPM that KALEWIS asked for in post 170. We need to know where both meter leads are connected for the voltage tests. And we need to know what the conditions are, engine on or off, RPM, master on or off, what electrical loads are on. The more information that we have, the easier it will be to solve the problem.
12.4 volts and negative 6 amps is not normal at higher RPM.
Have you checked the fuses?
I and others want to help but we need more information like the results from the tests that I suggested in post 157 and the voltage at high RPM that KALEWIS asked for in post 170. We need to know where both meter leads are connected for the voltage tests. And we need to know what the conditions are, engine on or off, RPM, master on or off, what electrical loads are on. The more information that we have, the easier it will be to solve the problem.
12.4 volts and negative 6 amps is not normal at higher RPM.
Have you checked the fuses?
I would agree....
Unless it is a newly completed airplane where the charging system has not yet worked.
It is important to know how the charging system worked during early ground runs, and during the very first flight. If you reported on that I guess I missed it. If it worked correctly at first, and then didn't, that points more towards a failed VR. If it never worked correctly that would suggest a wiring problem or other cause, or a defective VR out of the box, unlikely but possible.
Take heart, there are a bunch of talented people here to help you figure this out. As stated above, more detailed information will help the process.
Take heart, there are a bunch of talented people here to help you figure this out. As stated above, more detailed information will help the process.
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
testing
When I tested the VR I tied plane down and ran engine slightly above idle, put voltage meter on AC and tested yellow wires..found out put to be 13.9 volts AC...then checked white wires and they were showing 6 volts..maybe I forgot to switch from AC?? Yesterday I installed new VR and it shows in flight on EFIS 12.4 volts and below that -6 amps draw with everything on but landing lights...battery did not go down this time after flying for .75 hours...thanks to everyone for all the help..
When I tested the VR I tied plane down and ran engine slightly above idle, put voltage meter on AC and tested yellow wires..found out put to be 13.9 volts AC...then checked white wires and they were showing 6 volts..maybe I forgot to switch from AC?? Yesterday I installed new VR and it shows in flight on EFIS 12.4 volts and below that -6 amps draw with everything on but landing lights...battery did not go down this time after flying for .75 hours...thanks to everyone for all the help..
bret
Well Known Member
This may or may not be this problem, but I have seen magneto-rectifier type charging problems on Polaris rangers, very similar, one instance we chased a charging problem for a long time, ended up being a bad oil seal and that oil contamination on the stator and rotor was enough to cause it not to charge. I don't think it had anything to do with the magnets but maybe the high voltage AC jumping across parts internal due to the oil on the parts that are suppose to be dry, liquids and AC current don't play well together ;-)
Sounds like it was not a bad VR then, since you still have the problem with a new one. Check the AC output again between the two yellow wires at a mid-range RPM. Report voltage back here so we can eliminate the alternator itself as a cause.
Dick, you may or may not find this useful. Here is a drawing for a test fixture I made a while back for bench testing these regulators. The voltages will be different with a battery for the load or with a regulator installed in the aircraft. But it should give you some idea as to how they work.
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Flyingleap
Well Known Member
Test circuit...
Mike, Nice test rig. Add a load like a battery with a very low
internal impedance and a current pulse at TP2 to exceed the output current
rating of the regulator that goes to the battery. These regulators seem to be very marginal in design, but why.
Many have put blast tubes to limit overheating to no avail, it seems. This might be the time to blow a few of these regulators to find out what they don't like.
Has anyone looked at the B&C SD8 type "generator" and use one of their
regulators. I think it's works the same,,,,
My to cents..John
Mike, Nice test rig. Add a load like a battery with a very low
internal impedance and a current pulse at TP2 to exceed the output current
rating of the regulator that goes to the battery. These regulators seem to be very marginal in design, but why.
Many have put blast tubes to limit overheating to no avail, it seems. This might be the time to blow a few of these regulators to find out what they don't like.
Has anyone looked at the B&C SD8 type "generator" and use one of their
regulators. I think it's works the same,,,,
My to cents..John
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
testing
Today I roped airplane so I could run it up...took VOM and tested yellow wires at different RPM's...at idle: 3.5 volts...at 4,000 RPM 9.7 Volts...this is AC..and with good ground...I think I may have not hooked some wire up properly when I installed engine...now the question is what wire?? or other suggestions??
Today I roped airplane so I could run it up...took VOM and tested yellow wires at different RPM's...at idle: 3.5 volts...at 4,000 RPM 9.7 Volts...this is AC..and with good ground...I think I may have not hooked some wire up properly when I installed engine...now the question is what wire?? or other suggestions??
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Mike,
Great test rig! It seems self explanatory, but I have two questions.
1. The figure is a little fuzzy near TP2. Is the capacitor value 1uf?
2. What component does 7812 represent?
Rich
Great test rig! It seems self explanatory, but I have two questions.
1. The figure is a little fuzzy near TP2. Is the capacitor value 1uf?
2. What component does 7812 represent?
Rich
Rich,
Here is a link to the full size version;
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByPxADyU-DwPbFRoYl83WjV5MTg/view?usp=sharing
Yes, that is 1uf 35 volt tant cap.
the 7812 is a three lead 12V positive voltage regulator (Google 7812CT)
Dick,
When checking the AC input measure across the two G terminals, do not use a ground reference. Use the ground reference for the DC voltages only.
Here is a link to the full size version;
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByPxADyU-DwPbFRoYl83WjV5MTg/view?usp=sharing
Yes, that is 1uf 35 volt tant cap.
the 7812 is a three lead 12V positive voltage regulator (Google 7812CT)
Dick,
When checking the AC input measure across the two G terminals, do not use a ground reference. Use the ground reference for the DC voltages only.
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DHeal
Well Known Member
Scott --
Yes, I should have noted that. Just to show you how well my "finger-crossing" karma works, I took my 12 up for a nice flight today and all went well --including the VR. HOWEVER, on the drive home from the airport, the timing belt in my 1991 Miata failed (it was due). So now I have another fun project to keep me busy in the garage! Gotta love karma and wrenching!!
-- David
Joe, if both of these wires are piggy backed with an appropriate 1/4 push connector adapter, should that be ok or is it imperative to only use one and insulate the other?
I tried a NAPA unit today and I am thinking it is defective as the voltage went to 15 volts at 1800 rpm.
Dick,
Like Mike Miller said, measure the AC voltage between the two big yellow wires, not to ground. I predict that the AC will be fine because either the alternator works or it doesn't. It is unlikely to generate half voltage.
After checking the AC, switch the meter to DC and connect the black meter lead to the regulator case and measure the voltage on the other 3 terminals where the two big white wires and small yellow wire are connected. Tell us what you get.
Like Mike Miller said, measure the AC voltage between the two big yellow wires, not to ground. I predict that the AC will be fine because either the alternator works or it doesn't. It is unlikely to generate half voltage.
After checking the AC, switch the meter to DC and connect the black meter lead to the regulator case and measure the voltage on the other 3 terminals where the two big white wires and small yellow wire are connected. Tell us what you get.
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Testing
You guys are the best, I will do as suggested..after talking to Rotax dealer hear in Northwest, he said he thought everything was normal...even the -6 volt reading on EFIS amp widget..maybe I can sleep tonight..thanks to all for help..Dick
You guys are the best, I will do as suggested..after talking to Rotax dealer hear in Northwest, he said he thought everything was normal...even the -6 volt reading on EFIS amp widget..maybe I can sleep tonight..thanks to all for help..Dick
Showing a 6 amp discharge is definitely NOT normal. Do what Joe suggests in his most recent post and report results. Make SURE you have the meter set to AC and you are measuring across the two yellow wires, that is black lead on one and red lead on the other. No ground for this test.
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Update
Jury is still out, one Rotax guru said my readings coming from Alternator were normal..however I'm still not convinced..I start flight with between 12.4 and 12.6 Voltage on EFIS...depending on how many things I turn on I show from .3 to .6 amp draw...after flying for hour voltage may go down to 12 volts..doesn't sound like it's charging enough..replaced Ducati regulator same story...I'm not sure my battery is not to blame, maybe it was old when I got it in engine package?? I have never seen it charged to over 12.9 and that was only once..mostly it goes to 12.4...even with a good charger all night...Dick
Jury is still out, one Rotax guru said my readings coming from Alternator were normal..however I'm still not convinced..I start flight with between 12.4 and 12.6 Voltage on EFIS...depending on how many things I turn on I show from .3 to .6 amp draw...after flying for hour voltage may go down to 12 volts..doesn't sound like it's charging enough..replaced Ducati regulator same story...I'm not sure my battery is not to blame, maybe it was old when I got it in engine package?? I have never seen it charged to over 12.9 and that was only once..mostly it goes to 12.4...even with a good charger all night...Dick
Just a "for what it's worth" comment here. I chased electrical issues that effected starting for nearly 6 months. I blamed just about everything. I even had some folks pointing me toward the Sprag clutch, which would require an engine tear down to fix. In the end, the battery was the cheapest, and easiest item to change. This totally solved my issues. For the minimal cost and effort, this would be my first action. Hey, if turns out not to be the cause, use the old battery on your lawn tractor, or give it to a neighbor. A fresh battery is cheap insurance.....Tom
DHeal
Well Known Member
I agree with Tom. Once you have confirmed that all of your wiring is per the plans, consider trying a new battery and make sure you follow Odyssey's charging instructions. Also, I found that all of my battery "issues" went away once I actually started flying the plane.
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olderthandirt
Well Known Member
Not charging
I went flying today for 1.3 hours, battery started out at 12.4 volts...by time I got back it was down to 11.7 volts and the radio indicated it did not have enough voltage to transmit ..( people confirmed this)...so it's not charging...now what?? And yes I agree battery cheapest possible repair..but not likely the issue...and it and everything is brand new..5.3 hours on whole plane and engine...thank to all for help..Dick
I went flying today for 1.3 hours, battery started out at 12.4 volts...by time I got back it was down to 11.7 volts and the radio indicated it did not have enough voltage to transmit ..( people confirmed this)...so it's not charging...now what?? And yes I agree battery cheapest possible repair..but not likely the issue...and it and everything is brand new..5.3 hours on whole plane and engine...thank to all for help..Dick
olderthandirt
Well Known Member
testing
I did measure the yellow wires..but to groung, not between them?? I got 9.7volts AC...Can measure again if that is not correct way?? I'm baffled, if I get any voltage I can't imagine that I forgot to hook a wire up or hooked it up incorrectly???
I did measure the yellow wires..but to groung, not between them?? I got 9.7volts AC...Can measure again if that is not correct way?? I'm baffled, if I get any voltage I can't imagine that I forgot to hook a wire up or hooked it up incorrectly???
Dick,
You have told us about measuring the regulator voltage on the two large yellow wires, but not about the small yellow wire on terminal C and not the two white wires on terminals B & R.
Can you post a picture of your voltage regulator?
Here is something else to try. Turn on the master switch and some of the other switches. Let us know which switches light up and which do not.
Does anyone with a SkyView system know where the three 1 amp fuses are physically located? Are they readily accessible?
You have told us about measuring the regulator voltage on the two large yellow wires, but not about the small yellow wire on terminal C and not the two white wires on terminals B & R.
Can you post a picture of your voltage regulator?
Here is something else to try. Turn on the master switch and some of the other switches. Let us know which switches light up and which do not.
Does anyone with a SkyView system know where the three 1 amp fuses are physically located? Are they readily accessible?
