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Forward Stick Authority on takeoff RV-6

fbrewer

Well Known Member
Members,

I finished my tailwheel endorsement in a Super Cub two weeks ago. So now that I have 6.5 hours of TW time, I am obviously an expert. :)

In the cub, the takeoff procedure was stick full aft for two seconds, and then take 3-4 second to go full forward on the stick and hold it there. The tail would raise, but would not raise further than approximately level flight.

I was surprised that it really was generally not possible to raise the tail too far and have a prop strike.

My question in the RV-6 is this: if I go full forward on the stick in the RV-6 and hold, will the tail continue to rise as speed builds and eventually cause a prop strike?

Or is the design of the RV-6 such that full forward stick on a normal takeoff (no gusting winds), will not cause a prop strike?

TIA
 
My question in the RV-6 is this: if I go full forward on the stick in the RV-6 and hold, will the tail continue to rise as speed builds and eventually cause a prop strike?

I don't know, because for a normal take-off (lifting the tail as you have described) doesn't take anywhere near full fwd stick.
My guess is that about 1/2 nicely lifts the tail to a just slightly tail low attitude.
 
TIA,

During takeoff in my RV-6 I hold the stick lightly in a neutral position and as I slowly advance the power the tail will gently rise off the ground within a few feet. At that point you can feel the elevator come alive and I increase the forward pressure slightly to attain a more level attitude. A few feet later with flying speed the plane becomes airborne.

I would strongly discourage holding full forward stick on takeoff as the elevator authority is probably sufficient to cause a prop strike or at least an unsafe nose down attitude while on the ground. Another possibility is the tail would come off the ground very quickly causing the pilot to over compensate with aft stick slamming the tail wheel back into the ground causing damage.

Overall, the RV-6 is much more responsive to pitch controls than a Super Cub and these large inputs on takeoff are not necessary. Within a few hours you will appreciate the difference.
 
There is also no reason to raise the tail to the point where the fuselage is horizontal. Takeoff with my 160hp, fixed-pitch prop RV-6 is:

Smoothly apply throttle, 1, 2, 3, stick to approximately neutral, 4, 5, the plane flies off the runway with a slightly tail-low attitude. Be prepared to apply MUCH more right rudder than you did in the J-3. :)

The position of the stick will vary some depending on how the plane is loaded.
 
Gentlemen,

Thanks for the input.

I like the mechanical: Smoothly apply throttle, 1, 2, 3, stick to approximately neutral, 4, 5, the plane flies off the runway with a slightly tail-low attitude.

I have my 2nd transition flight tomorrow.
 
I'd suggest feeling what the airplane wants to do rather than being "mechanical" with the inputs. You will get a feel for when the tail will naturally come up with just a touch of forward stick. There's no good reason to force it up early with excessive forward stick. Let the tail come up to an attitude that puts the tailwheel 6-8" off the runway, hold that attitude, and let it fly off when ready...requires slightly increasing aft pressure as the airplane accelerates. The "mechanical" approach would be to force the tail to a level attitude, watch the airspeed, and then pull the airplane off the ground when you see an ASI number you like. That's not a very "artful" way to fly. I'd suggest keeping your eyes outside and feel and fly the airplane. No need to look at the panel during the T/O roll in a tailwheel airplane. There's also no such thing as the "right" way to do it.
 
It's a feel thing.

By the way, the Cub can take off three point, tail low, or planted as you where taught. Same for the RV. Experiment with each as you explore your airplane.
Trim position, weight, temperature, winds, all play a role.

By the way, when doing a section take off in formation, the tail is lifted when your lead does. They may be flying a different RV with different characteristics.

The nice thing about RV's is you can get away with murder compared to many tail wheel airplanes and still execute a safe take off.
 
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Frank,
To answer your original question:

?My question in the RV-6 is this: if I go full forward on the stick in the RV-6 and hold, will the tail continue to rise as speed builds and eventually cause a prop strike??

Yes, possibly... depends on gross weight, CG, headwind component, prop diameter, and a few air density variables. As speed builds, the download on the tail does too, so it eventually becomes less likely to get a prop strike in any tailwheel airplane. But in any RV taildragger, that is inherently less dynamically stable in pitch and therefore has less designed download on its tail than most certified airplanes, it would be more likely to get a prop strike in certain situations. If you applied a larger than necessary amount of nose down pitch on takeoff, and then had to abort your takeoff (even if you didn?t drag your prop first) you may have a problem. Using any amount of initial braking in this situation invites a prop strike and possibly nose over, unless you?re really clever with your stick. Pulling back on the stick in this scenario would be a good idea, but too much, and your airborne - not what you?re looking for in a takeoff abort.

I don?t have very much time in a Cub, but I do in a DC-3, which really just a large Cub, it is impossible to experience a prop strike aerodynamically with your elevator under normal circumstances, and it?s that way with many certified tailwheel airplanes. That big horizontal tail sticking up in the breeze is your friend in this situation - not so much in an RV with its relative pitch authority v.s. HS area. We always did wheel landings in the -3 because to 3-point it, you had to be close to stall, which put you 20 knots below VMC. On touch down on a windy day I would usually apply full forward elevator. Even with braking, it would be unusual to have a problem. On takeoff - always used full forward elevator, just like the Cub. As others have said, a good technique in an RV is to let the tail float up, maybe with a little forward elevator (or not), and let it fly off in that tail low attitude. Adjusting pitch to maintain Vx/Vy won?t take much effort after that.
 
Sorry, I guess we got a little side tracked....

Wheel landings are done with stick full, or nearly full, forward. In that attitude, with a 72" prop, I have not heard of any prop strike issues, and I have made, and seen, some pretty awful wheel landing attempts !
 
Tailwheel technique

I was taught the following technique by some very competent instructors and have used it ever since in many different tail draggers. It varies from type to type but in an RV type with a steerable tailwheel, smoothly apply full power to the count of 5 while keeping the stick fully aft. This ensures maximum weight and traction on the tailwheel, affording you maximum directional control as the rpm increases and the torque and P-factor contributions are at their highest influence (trying to pull you off to the left). At full power the stick goes to neutral or a little forward and the tail will come up within a few seconds, quicker if you have a little flap. The VS and rudder will now be in the clear air above the fuse, again for maximum directional control. A few seconds later with just a little back pressure you're off and climbing.

As for wheel landings, just a little forward pressure on the stick as the wheels touch to reduce the AOA and dissipate the lift (pin it down). As the speed drops keep increasing the forward pressure to keep the tail up and the rudder in the clean undisturbed air above the fuse. When you can no longer hold the tail up it will settle gently then stick fully back to again increase the tailwheel pressure and traction for maximum control. Using this technique also ensures you're at the lowest possible ground speed as you transition into the three point attitude where some (not all) taildraggers can get squirrelly. Headwinds and brakes can help here too.

I feel its all about how to ensure the highest degree of directional control from your primary two resources, the tail wheel and rudder. I still dont relax until the machine is in the hangar...darn tail draggers..
 
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Gentlemen,

Thanks for the input.

I like the mechanical: Smoothly apply throttle, 1, 2, 3, stick to approximately neutral, 4, 5, the plane flies off the runway with a slightly tail-low attitude.

I have my 2nd transition flight tomorrow.

I didn't consider my description as mechanical because few takeoffs are identical. I described a "typical" takeoff in that manner to illustrate that it is not necessary to force the RV-6 into a tail-high attitude for an acceptable take-off.

I've been flying taildraggers for 25 years and they are still training me.... ;)
 
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... to illustrate that it is not necessary to force the RV-6 into a tail-high attitude for an acceptable take-off.

Exactly. Mike Segar teaches everything from a "raise the tail and trundle down the runway" takeoff to a "keep the stick relaxed and it'll fly off out of the 3 point attitude" takeoff. There are many ways to skin this cat.

Personally, I'm an advocate of letting the tail come up more or less on its own. Pushing the stick forward (and rotating the aircraft quickly) increases p-factor which means the airplane has more of a left turning tendency.
 
I?ve never had any problem with going full forward on the stick then applying full power. Once the tail comes up, I pull back to arrest the tail at the attitude I want for takeoff depending on surface conditions, wind, and load.

I used to always do three point takeoffs, but I?m convinced that lifting the tail gets me airborne in less runway distance.

Don
 
You may want to try different scenarios and see what you're happier with. As others have said, you can just hold the stick neutral, add power smoothly, keep it straight with rudder, and the plane will fly itself off with no fore-aft stick input. This will give you a steep initial climb angle in my experience.

Personally, I like raising the tail for visibility over the nose, and shallower initial climb angle. I honestly don't know if I hit the forward stop while doing that... I just do what's necessary to get the tail up after I start rolling. The shallower climb means a quicker acceleration to get cooling air flowing faster and keep CHT's down on climbout.
 
Just do what feels right

And quit counting while you should be FLYING the plane.
No two takeoffs are ever the same.
 
Jeez folks this is not rocket science. The answer is just use enough stick and rudder to achieve the desired result. If you don't have enough of either or both you probably made a bad decision on taking flight that day. Flight is a dynamic situation and depends on many factors. There is no one solution to a given situation.

When I was learning to fly I too wanted to quantify how much rudder or stick to use for taking off and landing. Coming from an engineering background I expected to put in X and get result Y. How ignorant I was. I put in X and Y was always a surprise. Then when I added Z everything changed again and off toward the fence we went. My wise instructor quickly pointed out that the necessary control inputs will always be variable and the amount you use will always vary as well. It took me a while to get my head around that concept.

So get a good instructor and learn the basic techniques, tail up and three point takeoffs, full stall landings and wheel landings and just practice. As your confidence builds and you learn how to handle the various wind conditions you will reflect back and think about your question and just smile. I always do.
 
Forward Stick...

I've never understood the desire to get the tail up as quickly as possible. Maybe that is because I learned from the backseat of a Cub where forward visibility was still nil even with tail raised due to instructor (my dad, a USAAF trained and USAF IP). I see lots of folks do it. While you can likely get away with it in an RV and a Cub, understand, there are planes where doing so will get you in trouble.

I've always began a normal take off with full UP elevator to keep the tailwheel firmly planted on the runway so it will assist in directional control, especially at slow speeds where the rudder isn't yet effective. As speed builds, relax the back pressure to allow the tail to rise slightly, but maintaining a slightly tail low attitude. As the mains lift off, put in a small bit of forward stick to allow the plane to accelerate while beginning a very shallow climb. It has worked for me in most taildraggers.

Forcing the tail up as soon as possible will lead to an excursion off the left side of the runway in a Swift. Torque, p-factor and especially a bit of left crosswind overpower the rudder. Lots of high time folks have run them off the left side of the runway doing this. To a lesser degree, a Pitts will do the same thing if you aren't ready for it. Fortunately, it has a very effective rudder and a boot full of right rudder will typicallly arrest the swerve.

For most takeoffs, there simply isn't any reason to go full forward on the elevator and many reasons not to.

That's my two cents.
 
I've never understood the desire to get the tail up as quickly as possible.

+1. Also never understood the desire to keep the tail up as long as possible with full forward stick on wheel landings. Good reasons not to. Never understood the desire or need to jack the tail way high and visually acquire the pavement 10 ft. in front of the nose during a 6-8 second take off roll. ;) Airplanes with REAL forward vis issues will cure folks of this desire. Some people do stuff for fun, and that's fine. Every airplane is different. There is nothing unique at all about handling a tailwheel RV on the ground.
 
Yesterday I had a chance to get a sight picture with the tail raised to level.

I had two friends raise the tail and we placed two oil boxes under the tail wheel. This raised the tail 30 inches and was essentially made the fuselage level.

I did this to get a feel for prop clearance and I was happy to see that the prop still had over 12 inches of clearance.

I then go in the plane to observe the sight picture.

My next flight is Monday - can't wait.
 
I raise the tail on takeoff because I've found it to be the shortest takeoff roll for me. That being said I used to do 3 point takeoffs in Cessna 140s and just about any other light tailwheel I've flown. And wheel landings are a ton of fun - that's why I do them when I do them.

This is no different than the discussion about approaches to landings. There isn't a pre-determined, one size fits all solution. You need to be proficient at all options.

?To the man with only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.? That?s a perfectly disastrous way to think and a perfectly disastrous way to fly an airplane.

Don
 
I raise the tail on takeoff because I've found it to be the shortest takeoff roll for me. That being said I used to do 3 point takeoffs in Cessna 140s and just about any other light tailwheel I've flown. And wheel landings are a ton of fun - that's why I do them when I do them.

This is no different than the discussion about approaches to landings. There isn't a pre-determined, one size fits all solution. You need to be proficient at all options.

?To the man with only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.? That?s a perfectly disastrous way to think and a perfectly disastrous way to fly an airplane.

Don

I agree about the shortest takeoff is where you get the tail up so the wing's angle of attack is pretty close to zero so it reduces drag. But do you raise the tail by using full forward stick from application of throttle until the tail comes up? Unless doing a 3 point takeoff, the tail eventually has to come up some. I think it is better to keep the tailwheel on the ground until sufficient (tail) flying speed is developed and then a bit of forward stick or releasing back pressure will let it rise but with sufficient control authority. If every takeoff is short field and requires it, I agree. But there are trade offs for getting that short distance. One is decreased controlability when the tailwheel isn't steering but the rudder isn't really effective. Many airplanes tail will "fly" when the rudder isn't necessarily effective. Throw in a little left crosswind and forcing the tail up too early can cause a swerve to the left.

All that said, fortunately, the RV series isn't rudder limited greatly. Unfortunately, someone may develop some habits in an RV that will cause them grief in other taildraggers. I watched it happen in a Pitts. Pilot had a great deal of t/w time in lightweight planes such as Cub, Champ, Kitfox, etc. He did what he always did. He popped the tail up and the plane darted off the left side of the runway...and the Pitts has a pretty darned effective rudder.

I agree, there is no one size fits all when it comes to flying taildraggers.
 
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