What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Tip: Going with Lace?

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
I like to think of myself as a modern aircraft builder. I don?t pour linseed oil inside of my tubing ? I use primers. I don?t use zinc chromate ? I use something a little harder (and less toxic!). And I have generally used nylon zip ties to build harnesses and wire bundles because, well, they are fast and cheap?and modern! But sometimes, the old ways CAN be the best?.and lace (that is ?lacing cord?) can actually be quite nice.

I pulled the panel out of the Valkyrie to do some avionics upgrades this past week, and as is usually the case, my hands ended up with an array of scratches from the little tag ends of zip ties on the many wire bundles and service loops in the system. Even though I use a zip-tie gun and even a razor blade to finish the ties, there are always a few bad apples you don?t get to until reaching in to do maintenance. I have often wished that I had taken the time to use waxed lacing cord to build the wiring harnesses, a reversion to the old lessons I was taught decades ago as a novice airplane worker. I remember being taught lacing cord, rib stitching, doping, sanding?all the great arts. I can do without the doping and sanding these days, but perhaps the old lacing knot could be relearned!

The job I was doing this week was going to require adding one or two wires to almost every bundle behind the panel, so I figure this was a good time to change over, purge the new and go back to the old. I have a big roll of cord that I have been using since I decided to do all new work that way a year or so ago. There is something peaceful about lacing cord ? sitting their quietly making a loop and a loop, then pulling it tight ? the waxed cord holding tight so that you can finish it off with a couple of hitches. It?s so much nicer than the sharp ?snap!? you get when pulling zip ties with the gun, the tails flying around the shop like little missiles, the dog jumping every time you pop one. I sat there Friday morning in our little hangar apartment, peacefully tying cord while watching the wet snow fall heavily outside the window (yup ? in HOUSTON!!), feeling the glow of skills renewed from old. It was almost like Christmas ? little bows and ribbons making packages neat - warm inside, cold outside. Snip, snip, snip, and the modern ties were banished to the trash, the new and improved bundles sporting their smooth, soft wraps. Zip ties still have their occasional place (securing bundles to structure, holding cowl pins secure, fixing a broken key chain?), but from now on, I am going back to the past when it comes to bundles?.lace is nice!

IMG_7487.JPG


Paul
 
looks nice Paul.

makes me wonder though, how hard it would be to have a remote sensor for the pitot and be able to send all the info electrically to the boxes that need it. You'd remove the chance for leaks at all the junctions, maybe save some money not needing all the pressure sensors. But it would take a revolution in instrumentation, they all look like they are used to pulling a tube that delivers the air pressure. It would remove some redundancy i think also.
 
Lacing Cord

Paul, I too prefer lacing cord in many applications. I just ordered my avionics stack last week and plan to use lace to bundle it up. I've used lace for some of my wiring already. Yours looks nice.

Danny, Remote pitot and static sensors are regularly used in modern airliners. They mount close to the pitot or static ports and convert the pressure readings to ARINC 429 data for the Air Data Computers. They save a lot of weight on large aircraft, but I don't think they would be practical for small GA aircraft.

By the way, lacing cord is still widely used in modern airliners.
 
Funny I was having exactly the same discussion just yesterday and how nice it would be for future annuals to not ones forarms look like they do after i de-flea the so called domesticated pussy cat!

If I were doing it again I'd use the cheapest zipties I could find for speed of install and right before buttoning everything up..do the whole thing in lace.

Frank
 
Whew Paul, I thought you were going to show us your feminine side with little lace doilies on the glare shield and on the back of the seats.:D
 
one other thing- I had a friend that did telco work, and he had a tool for cutting zip ties. When he used that, there was zero cut end sticking above the locking mechanism- no sharp points. I don't remember how big it was, seems like i remember it was just a fancy ground pair of dikes, but if someone is doing lots of zip tie-ing they might look for some of those

back to the lacing subject, i'm pretty sure there was an article in kitplanes this past year on how to lace. found it---- it was the aug 2009 issue
 
I am used to using one of these, but I see these are less expensive, even less here.

Yup, got the tools - the expensive ones, and the cheap ones - and even then I find that a good 30% of zip ties are in locations the tools just won't fit, or reach. And you still have the "bump" of the zip-tie head to ruin the esthetics of your harnesses....
 
I'm with Paul on this one. I have a Panduit zip-tie gun, about the best in the business, nigh on $1K in some supply shops. And still I often find myself using my Snap-On EC710 flush cutting sidecutters to cut the tails off zip-ties. The gun just can't get into many places in an airplane. For most wiring applications on an airplane a set of the EC710's is about the best tooling investment a person can make. I'm on my second set of them after my daughter used my first set (25 years old by then and still going strong) to cut heavy jewelry wire. Needless to say her jewelry became much more expensive after having to pay for a new set of sidecutters from Mr. Snap-On. There aren't many Snap-On tools that are worth the hefty premium they charge - these ones are worth every penny.

Lacing cord remains my bundling material of choice. When I re-did my instrument panel I had a few hangar rats looking over my shoulder and they all said the same thing - how neat and tidy the laced bundles look. And the nice thing is that lace doesn't degrade in sunlight (or at least not nearly as much as many zip-ties, even the expensive ones). The biggest bonus is, for me, a toss-up between the lack of sharp tails to tear my hands and forearms and the zen-like state or relaxation that comes from producing a well-laced bundle.
 
Ok, Ok, Lacing is great....

:pIt looks great (and will be buried behind your panel for nobody to ever see again), is easy to do (unless you are on your back and only have one hand), but come on guys, I have scratched myself on the ends, but never to the point of bleeding or even leaving a mark that did not fade in a few minutes. Really, toughen up!
Zip ties where invented for a reason. Nobody ever see's behind my panel except occasionally me, it will never see any sunlight to degrade, and I simply found it easier and quicker than lacing, which as an electronics technician in my past life, I was pretty good at it!
I can see it now, another thread to be added to the endless debate forum! Ha!:)
 
Oh, and sorry Paul, forgot my manners....

:pIt looks great (and will be buried behind your panel for nobody to ever see again), is easy to do (unless you are on your back and only have one hand), but come on guys, I have scratched myself on the ends, but never to the point of bleeding or even leaving a mark that did not fade in a few minutes. Really, toughen up!
Zip ties where invented for a reason. Nobody ever see's behind my panel except occasionally me, it will never see any sunlight to degrade, and I simply found it easier and quicker than lacing, which as an electronics technician in my past life, I was pretty good at it!
I can see it now, another thread to be added to the endless debate forum! Ha!:)

Your panel wiring does look great. You always do quality work.
 
Lacing

Just ordered some from Spruce - not easy to find on line. Part #11-12200. But will this let me achieve that Zen state?
 
zip ties

Guess I'll just have to cut off 10,000 plastic zip ties!

For all of us too lazy to lace our wiring bundles here's the solution. Go to http://www.mpja.com/ website and order their PC Board Flush Cutter. stock number 16761TL. Costs about $1.75 and cuts those dang skin slicers off absolutely flush. No more nasty cuts when working behind the panel.

Might as well order two, since they're sorta delicate and you'll be tempted grab them because they're handy for a tough job they're not designed to do and break the tips of the blades off.
 
lacing etc

I got the little green handled cutter from Stein. Since using that the zip ties just don't cut anymore. Bill
 
Paul - it looks beautiful.

I notice you used the same kind of connectors for the pitot/static system that I used when I upgraded my panel to an EFIS. During my IFR certification I got some bad news - over half of those connectors leaked, and the mechanic told me his experience was that "if they don't leak now, they will."

I cannot verify the truth or falsehood of his statement, but will say that he seemed very forthcoming and recommended I replace them myself (e.g. he wasn't saying this just to make a buck) with this kind available from Stein and others:

pitot5.jpg


Those, he said, never leak and they are easier to use.

Hopefully none of yours leak for many years - but if they do, this seems to be the way to go.

Cheers,

Bill Reister
 
JonJay wrote:
but never to the point of bleeding or even leaving a mark that did not fade in a few minutes. Really, toughen up!


I must be a real wimp. I just finished up some rewiring in the tailcone and my right hand looks like I lost a fight with my cat! Real blood and all!:D
 
Blood under the panel- a soon to be a released motion picture

I?ve has some fairly nasty cuts from Zip ties that others have installed. When I put them on I?m very careful to trim them so there is no sharp tail (just in case I?m the next guy back) Some where I used to work, we got a batch of zip ties that were made so the tails laid flat (kind of like a belt buckle) rather than sticking up perpendicular to the bundle, and laid in a small recess out of harms way. It made for a much nicer finished product, but you couldn?t pull them as tight.
 
That would be the Cobra...

I?ve has some fairly nasty cuts from Zip ties that others have installed. When I put them on I?m very careful to trim them so there is no sharp tail (just in case I?m the next guy back) Some where I used to work, we got a batch of zip ties that were made so the tails laid flat (kind of like a belt buckle) rather than sticking up perpendicular to the bundle, and laid in a small recess out of harms way. It made for a much nicer finished product, but you couldn?t pull them as tight.

...ties...

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cobraties.php

I bought some (try your Ace hardware and Home Depot as well as Spruce) but, as stated above, I could never get them to tighten properly.

I'll stick with the lacing cord and keep the blood letting to a minumum...:)
 
Good Thinking

I like to think of myself as a modern aircraft builder. I don?t pour linseed oil inside of my tubing ? I use primers. I don?t use zinc chromate ? I use something a little harder (and less toxic!). And I have generally used nylon zip ties to build harnesses and wire bundles because, well, they are fast and cheap?and modern! But sometimes, the old ways CAN be the best?.and lace (that is ?lacing cord?) can actually be quite nice.

I pulled the panel out of the Valkyrie to do some avionics upgrades this past week, and as is usually the case, my hands ended up with an array of scratches from the little tag ends of zip ties on the many wire bundles and service loops in the system. Even though I use a zip-tie gun and even a razor blade to finish the ties, there are always a few bad apples you don?t get to until reaching in to do maintenance. I have often wished that I had taken the time to use waxed lacing cord to build the wiring harnesses, a reversion to the old lessons I was taught decades ago as a novice airplane worker. I remember being taught lacing cord, rib stitching, doping, sanding?all the great arts. I can do without the doping and sanding these days, but perhaps the old lacing knot could be relearned!

The job I was doing this week was going to require adding one or two wires to almost every bundle behind the panel, so I figure this was a good time to change over, purge the new and go back to the old. I have a big roll of cord that I have been using since I decided to do all new work that way a year or so ago. There is something peaceful about lacing cord ? sitting their quietly making a loop and a loop, then pulling it tight ? the waxed cord holding tight so that you can finish it off with a couple of hitches. It?s so much nicer than the sharp ?snap!? you get when pulling zip ties with the gun, the tails flying around the shop like little missiles, the dog jumping every time you pop one. I sat there Friday morning in our little hangar apartment, peacefully tying cord while watching the wet snow fall heavily outside the window (yup ? in HOUSTON!!), feeling the glow of skills renewed from old. It was almost like Christmas ? little bows and ribbons making packages neat - warm inside, cold outside. Snip, snip, snip, and the modern ties were banished to the trash, the new and improved bundles sporting their smooth, soft wraps. Zip ties still have their occasional place (securing bundles to structure, holding cowl pins secure, fixing a broken key chain?), but from now on, I am going back to the past when it comes to bundles?.lace is nice!

IMG_7487.JPG


Paul

I have personally always used waxed lacing cord for electrical. Why? Because an old A&P IA taught me to. He said that no matter what, the cord will always be there doing it's job. Nylon, plastic, who knows how long it lasts, gets cold and brittle. Good advise I think so that's what I do. It takes longer but it is satisfying.
C.G.
 
For all those who like the Zen of lacing, you already understand....for those who still prefer cable ties, I understand as well...and I still use a few here and there!

Now, every time I look at that picture, i keep seeing my awful Pitot/Static mess. I visited Stein last week while up in Minnesota, and as soon as I have the time, will be trying to tidy it up as well with the new style push-on connectors. I'll report back!

Paul
 
Do you use the 'knot' that's recommended..

....or have you come up with a simpler knot?

Reason for asking, is because we're close to wiring a -7 in my hangar and I've been admiring the work on my -10....tied by a great A@P, and yours in the Val.

Kindly include a link for knot tying,

Thanks,
 
Pierre- I use a Clove Hitch around the bundle, then two Hitches to secure it. That's one of the options in AC43.13 - I like it better than the running hitch in case I want to do mods to the bundle later on.

When I get to a "T" or "Y" in a bundle, I do something a bit more fancy - hard to describe, but once you have the basic Clove Hitch down, it becomes obvious.

Paul
 
Ok you lacing purists, start doing it the old fashioned way

If you look at how lacing used to be done, it was not done with individual ties, it was a nearly continuous run of lacing. The lacing wrapped the bundled along its entirety with a special "hitch" called a "lock stitch" occasional spaced along the run. It was only knoted at the beginning and the end of the harness. In this manner, the wire bundle was smooth with no knots protruding and could be pulled through without risk of a snag.
I have witnessed it being done in the electronics factory when I was a techinician way too many years ago. It is a skill that I could never do well or efficiently.
Using individual knots is cheating!
http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/
 
The running lockstitch....

If you look at how lacing used to be done, it was not done with individual ties, it was a nearly continuous run of lacing. The lacing wrapped the bundled along its entirety with a special "hitch" called a "lock stitch" occasional spaced along the run. It was only knoted at the beginning and the end of the harness. In this manner, the wire bundle was smooth with no knots protruding and could be pulled through without risk of a snag.
I have witnessed it being done in the electronics factory when I was a techinician way too many years ago. It is a skill that I could never do well or efficiently.
Using individual knots is cheating!
http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/

...is fairly easy to master... and is on Page 42 of the NASA document...

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.pdf

It is usually used when the harness is built on a bench on a custom fixture - often a piece of plywood with nails guiding the multiple wire runs. It is much harder to accomplish on wiring already installed in the plane...:(
 
Lacing cord - retraction!

Apologies to all. I posted earlier a source and part number (Just ordered some from Spruce - not easy to find on line. Part #11-12200) for what I thought was the right stuff. We were out of town and I just looked at this product-it's thick, inflexible and completely unusable for our purpose. Sorry. Does anybody have a great source for the correct lacing cord? Thanks in advance. Bill
 
Back
Top