Panel Critique Please

Hello All:

Working with Stein on a panel design for my 10. Looking for feedback on the design.

Equipment:
Dual Garmin 10? touch
Garmin GTN 650
Remote Transponder
Remote com
Garmin AP
VPX Pro
Dual batteries
Dual alternators
Dual Light speed Ignition
Heated Pitot
Standard mixture/prop/throttle set-up, no quadrant
Planning on a back up bus in case VPX goes completely dark (not a given yet)

Panel will be a stock Stein panel, no Aerosport or other similar.

Considering moving the GTN650 to a center counsel mount, not sure yet. Thoughts?

What am I missing, not thinking of or otherwise things that could change?

Thanks in advance and appreciate the feedback as I could use all the help I can get.

E

ethand said:

Considering moving the GTN650 to a center counsel mount, not sure yet. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I think it may be a good idea------------with a center armrest, you would have a solid base for your hand/arm to use the touch screen.

I presume you are just asking about layout - not "my equipment choices would be different".
Does the panel in front of the pilot display all required annunciations from the gps? For ifr, it looks like the gps is too far to the right to meet the TSO. Below the throttle would definitely be too low, unless there is remote annunciation.

Personal preference: Put one 10" screen in front of each seat, and stack the GPS, audio panel, etc. in the center. I'm a big fan of symmetry and giving the passenger an equal chance to fly or help out enroute.

I'm not sure I like where your flap switch is. I'd move it to the left of the light switches so it's not over your engine controls. You can also swap out the Dynon for a GRT sport for your backup EFIS, which will then allow you continued access to your VP-X should the Garmin system become unavailable. You might also consider moving the second Garmin screen left and making a stack of the audio, backup EFIS, autopilot, and, if there is room, the GTN650. Your instrument flow could then be PFD in front of you, VP-X system display on the backup EFIS (with engine info), and then the MFD, which would still be easily reachable from the pilot's seat. If you ever expect it to be flyable from either front seat, consider centralizing the components so the right-seater can easily reach all controls.

I agree with Rob on moving one panel right and stacking the autopilot control, audio panel, and navcom. As drawn, I don't think there is enough room to squeeze the audio panel in on top as shown. I have my flaps in your location, and it has worked well. You need to operate them with your right hand, and you would like for the copilot to be able to reach them too.

A

Great feedback, appreciate it.

Certainly seems the theme is to split the screens between the two seats and stack the other components in the middle.

Patrick: Interesting concept about the GRT and how to set -up the cockpit. Appreciate your comment on the flap switch.

Thanks everyone.

E

Some thoughts:
- Agree with the other comments to put the GTN-650 in the center. If you keep it in the lower half of the panel there will be no interference with the center rib. The right display is then a little left of center for the co-pilot and easy view for the pilot. You need to carefully measure where you put the GTN-650 as it still needs to be high enough to allow for making the clearance hole in the next forward bulkhead. This hole will need to be reinforced with some light angle. In other words, if you mount the GTN-650 as high as you can but still have the forward top end of the mount below the center rib, you're good.
- Looking at the single master switch I assume you have just a single master solenoid and both batteries are connected to a common terminal, or you are using a single switch to operated two solenoids, one on each battery (preferred). Assuming you have some sort of back up power to the panel having two master solenoids will remove a single failure point risk. You might want to consider two master switches as that provides some flexibility.
- As one that has flown with LightSpeed ignitions (and had multiple failures) I suggest you look further at this choice.
- Mount the audio panel below the GTN-650. This is the piece of equipment that requires the least vision contact time so move it out of the prime real estate.
- The D10A is a great independent EFIS. Once you move the GTN-650 to the center see if you can mount it to the right of the left display, above the GTN-650 and to the left of the center rib. You need to add a simple toggle switch next to the D10A to select either the GTN-650 GPS serial as input, or the GTN-650 VOR serial as input. This way the D10A provides an independent HSI with glide slope display.
- If you move the D10A then see if you can do a vertical mount of the Auto Pilot panel to the left of the left display. This is a panel that will most likely get a lot of use.
- Once you move the audio panel and Auto Pilot display, see if you can move both EFIS displays up a little on the panel.
- I assume the panel flap switch is a backup to the one you have on the stick.
- There is plenty of panel space available to use standard circuit breakers instead of a VPX if desired.

A lot of personal preferences in the above list so take with a grain of salt.

Carl

I would go ahead and plan for the GMC-307 which is a bit different in size. You will want the features it has over the 305...

There are tons of pros and cons to all the other suggestions so far....

Carl Froehlich said:

You need to add a simple toggle switch next to the D10A to select either the GTN-650 GPS serial as input, or the GTN-650 VOR serial as input. This way the D10A provides an independent HSI with glide slope display.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure the GTN only outputs VOR/LOC/GS data over ARINC and to use that with the D10A, you will need an HS34.

It does however output AVIATION data format for simple GPS information which you can use with the D10A. The G3X can also output NMEA data with similar GPS information. To be able to select between them, you will need a switch or the HS34. (Be aware that if you use a switch, it can take some time before the D10A recognizes the protocol change and starts working)

The GTN-650 does have serial outputs for GPS and VOR/GS, and may be used in addition to feeding an ARINC. If using these serials the D10A will display GPS distance to way point as well. The HS34 is not required but if used makes it easier to do HSI work and provides a means to select between GPS and VOR without adding another switch.

With GTN-650 feeding GPS data to the D10A, and if the D10A has the remote compass and OAT probe, the D10A will also show wind direction and speed, and TAS.

Carl

How far along??

I always ask folks how far along they are on the build when they post panel ideas. I've seen some who haven't finished their tail kits and they are planning the panel. Great entertainment but completely impractical. Things change too fast.

My thoughts. I completely agree with the symmetry concept. Remember you are in a small aircraft and the entire panel will be accessible by view and touch. No need to crowd the equipment.

Place a screen in front of each seat. Put your stack in the center with the audio panel on top, the 650 next, the auto pilot control.

Put the dimmers above the audio panel. Every effort should be made to avoid looking down for anything!!!

Move your oximeter closer as it is something you should use often. Look at the Guardian 455. Move the ELT to the upper right (or upper left) out of way of getting accidentally bumped.

Move the fuel pump to the far right of the switches. You want this close to the throttle for any emergencies.

Place the flap switch just to the left of the throttle. Again for emergency operation.

I'd dump the Dynon 10A. Great piece of equipment but I believe unnecessary with your panel. Also you have the chore of interfacing with a different brand. If you lose the 10A you could put your oximeter there.

Finally, I know you mentioned you want a standard Stein panel but I would rule out an Aerosport panel. They are elegant and give you the built in symmetry.

Good luck. Fun stuff!!!

Carl Froehlich said:

The GTN-650 does have serial outputs for GPS and VOR/GS, and may be used in addition to feeding an ARINC. If using these serials the D10A will display GPS distance to way point as well. The HS34 is not required but if used makes it easier to do HSI work and provides a means to select between GPS and VOR without adding another switch.

Click to expand...

Gonna have to disagree with you on the part about the GTN having VOR/GS available on the non ARINC serial ports. To get VOR/LOC/GS data out of the GTN, you need an ARINC interface.

All the other GPS stuff (except for GPSS and GPSV) is available on the serial port with the AVIATION protocol.

Just to let you know I am not alone in my opinion, here is a post quote from Dynon and their forum stating the same thing:


"Dynon Avionics Offline
Dynon Official
I love flying!

Posts: 11566
*****
The NAV radio side of the 650's output is only transmitted over ARINC-429, which is what the HS34 has in it. Without that, you won't be able to see any VOR, LOC, or GS information. Though we can still show GPS information via serial input if you don't opt for the HS34, the needle won't auto-scale (because the information to do that isn't in the serial data, only the ARINC-429) and you won't see any GPS glide path information (again, because that information is not on the serial output, only the ARINC-429)."

Thanks Brian - I stand corrected.

Carl

Good points in terms of keeping things higher on the panel and reduce the need to look inside.

The left most toggle is a battery on alternator/battery on switch (two position) so I do have two separate battery solenoids. That said, in thinking about it more the single toggle does not allow me to have the flexibility to choose batteries and alternators. I will make that change to two separate switches.

There was a question about project as well. I am almost done with the cabin top, doors are fitted and working on McMaster seals. Next steps is to start wiring as most of the structure is completed (tail, wings, most of fuselage structure etc). I think the timing is good.

Thanks for the excellent critique. Lots to change.

E

I also have a D-10A in the same spot - I like it there. Mine has the backup battery, as I'm sure you will also do.
The flap switch is fine where it is.
The big issue I see is the middle GXX and the PMA are right where the center panel brace is located. I know a lot of guys just whack away at it, but read Van's instructions carefully on the panel. I wouldn't do it.
John

While I like the D10A, it still requires your pitot and static system. Take a look at their D1 or D2 PocketPanel. Also think about adding a handheld GPS w/ an AirGozmo. (Sorry, I'm not an Apple fan for saving my life.) Between those two items, you can stay upright and navigate for more hours than you will want to. One draw back to the PocketPanel is the screen is not very bright; however, at night or in the clouds, it is plenty bright enough.

I would also recommend rethinking the dual Light Speeds. There is a post on this forum about a similar setup and the pilot had his alternator belt break, ripping out the trigger wire with it. Thus turning him into a no radio glider.

N941WR said:

While I like the D10A, it still requires your pitot and static system. Take a look at their D1 or D2 PocketPanel. Also think about adding a handheld GPS w/ an AirGozmo. (Sorry, I'm not an Apple fan for saving my life.) Between those two items, you can stay upright and navigate for more hours than you will want to. One draw back to the PocketPanel is the screen is not very bright; however, at night or in the clouds, it is plenty bright enough.

I would also recommend rethinking the dual Light Speeds. There is a post on this forum about a similar setup and the pilot had his alternator belt break, ripping out the trigger wire with it. Thus turning him into a no radio glider.

Click to expand...

+1
Do you want your last ditch attitude indicator to not work if you've lost pitot and gps already? I'd suggest a GRT mini with its own battery instead.
Agree one mag, one Light Speed gives you most of the Light Speed performance but keeps on running with no electricity, trigger sensors, etc.

Snowflake said:

Personal preference: Put one 10" screen in front of each seat, and stack the GPS, audio panel, etc. in the center. I'm a big fan of symmetry and giving the passenger an equal chance to fly or help out enroute.

Click to expand...

I personally like to have access to both screens. Putting one to the far right makes it almost useless to the pilot. If you expect to be flying regularly with another pilot, then this can be valid, but otherwise it is a wasted $4,000 if you can't access it. I would out the 2nd screen in the center a little higher than the left screen and the GTN-650 underneath it.

???

Jesse said:

I personally like to have access to both screens. Putting one to the far right makes it almost useless to the pilot. If you expect to be flying regularly with another pilot, then this can be valid, but otherwise it is a wasted $4,000 if you can't access it. I would out the 2nd screen in the center a little higher than the left screen and the GTN-650 underneath it.

Click to expand...

Jesse,

How big to you think this plane is? This isn't 737 sized. A pilot can reach anything on the panel. The 10 is bigger than the 7/9 but so much you can't reach everything. Virtually every 10 I looked at Oshkosh had some form of balance. In fact, I didn't see any with 2 screen together. May have been some that I missed.

Take a look at the plug and play panels AFS builds. They are all symmetrical. And all screens are functional and accessible.

RV7Guy said:

Jesse,

How big to you think this plane is? This isn't 737 sized. A pilot can reach anything on the panel. The 10 is bigger than the 7/9 but so much you can't reach everything. Virtually every 10 I looked at Oshkosh had some form of balance. In fact, I didn't see any with 2 screen together. May have been some that I missed.

Take a look at the plug and play panels AFS builds. They are all symmetrical. And all screens are functional and accessible.

Click to expand...

I'm with Jesse here. I'm a cfii and used to looking from the right seat across to the left seat instruments, but that's not at all the same as going back and forth between in front of you then away and then back again. I do have a second panel right-center in my -10, and I can use it. But centered on the right seat is too far right. The 10 is only a little wider than a 7 but it does make a difference. "Functional and accessible" does not necessarily mean "useable" when in IMC.

RV7Guy said:

Jesse,

How big to you think this plane is? This isn't 737 sized. A pilot can reach anything on the panel. The 10 is bigger than the 7/9 but so much you can't reach everything. Virtually every 10 I looked at Oshkosh had some form of balance. In fact, I didn't see any with 2 screen together. May have been some that I missed.

Take a look at the plug and play panels AFS builds. They are all symmetrical. And all screens are functional and accessible.

Click to expand...

I know exactly how big the RV-10 is. I have flown over 20 different RV-10's with all different panel layouts. A screen centered on the copilot is almost useless to the pilot. Not completely useless, but mostly so. It can work for full screen engine or for mostly or full screen map, but only to look at, not to work with. The right half buttons are not reachable without loosening shoulder straps, so if you can do everything without touching anything on the right half of that screen, then you are fine, but even details are hard to see.

As Bob said, the RV-10 panel is bigger than the RV-7 panel.

Jesse and Bob are giving you sound advice here if you intend to fly IFR on a regular basis. That second screen over on the right side is just hard to see and use well. You need all the essential elements as close together as possible to prevent a lot of head movement as well as make the button pushing easier. Let there be no doubt, even if you fly mainly VFR, that there will be times you wish that second screen was closer to your field of vision and reach if you put it on the right side.

Its going to sound like I'm piling on, but I have both of my AFS 4500s in front of me, with the Trutrak Gemini immediately to the left and the GTN 650 in the same eye level to the right. I do have an AFS 3400 for the entertainment of whomever is in the right seat.

My goal was to have everything I needed for single pilot IFR in direct scan view in front of me without having to move my head at all.

Can't you get everything you need for single-pilot IFR into the space of a 10" screen (plus a radio stack) if you're using steam gauges... Why can't you do it on a single 10" screen that has multiple split-screen options and pages? (Genuinely curious why you need two 10" screens for IFR).

I?ve got almost the same equipment in my RV-9A. My preferred screen configuration (so far) is engine gauges outboard on both sides, half screen PFDs on both sides, half screen MFDs in the center part of each G3X. Send me an email address and I?ll send you a picture. Hardware arrangement is G3X ? 3? instruments ? radio stack ? G3X
? You will manipulate the GTN-650 a whole lot, the G3X PFD not nearly so much. GTN should go in the center, absolutely. No problems reading the right side G3X
? Extra credit for grouping the switches, instead of having a long row of identical switches.
? Pitot heat gets used rarely ? put the fuel pump there, where it?s conspicuous
? Audio panel probably won?t get used all that much since each comm radio is a flip-flop plus monitor. And those have traditionally gone on the top due to space reasons, not necessarily because it made sense.
? Get the autopilot controller with dedicated heading and altitude knobs, as others have suggested
? Because of the envelope protection, I have the autopilot on all the time. That would suggest moving it with the other switches that are on all the time
? You?ll use strobes more than NAV lights. Put strobe switch on the end where it?s more visible. Or, since strobes go off when pitot heat goes on (in a cloud), and vice versa, you could pair up the strobes and pitot heat.
? Why are the dimmers off in Siberia? You?ve got room for them on the left
? Add power plugs on both sides, and USB ports as well. Can?t have too many
? Don?t know what AVI is. If it is avionics master (I purposely did not install same in my -9A), put it away from switches that get turned on and off. Put it with the other always on switches. But, given how much setup there is for the avionics, being able to power them up without the rest of the electronics being on (this is not the traditional way an avionics master is wired) is worth considering. Better yet is to have a way to power the avionics / recharge the battery without taking the cowl off.
? While it is traditional to have the electrical switches in front of the pilot, that?s not a requirement. On my Cessna 175, they were across the top of the panel from the center stack and to the right. Easy to get used to , easy to find, did not take up prime panel real estate. Definitely worth considering if you want more space above / below the G3X. Check it out on somebody else?s RV-10 and see if it makes sense for your airplane. (You don?t have a control wheel hiding the bottom of the panel).
? Consider a panel mount transponder. Easy to change codes when you?re busy, gives you an extra timer with dedicated buttons.
? With a center stack, you could put in an Aera GPS or something like that on top. Gives you an extra screen as well as backup nav independent of the electrical system (yes, I say that you have extra electrical sources)
? The -9A came with clips across the top of the panel to hold wiring for handheld devices. Very handy.
? I have a GDL-39 portable atop the panel, with a cable dedicated to connect it to the left side G3X. Found out that the right side G3X could see traffic but not weather. Solution was to connect the right side G3X to the GDL39 via Bluetooth (no extra hardware required).
? I have a Dynon D2 specifically because it has no pitot / static. In a pinch, I?ll take GPS altitude and won?t care if I?m a bit off (in altitude, that is) and the RVs are easy to land without an airspeed.

The G3X / GTN have truly awesome capability, but have a lot of learning curve, too, and some of that will be experience and oral tradition ? the manuals are industry standard quality, which is to say, mediocre. Don?t count on hopping in it and flying IFR without adequate practice.

I don?t know about the RV-10 panel structural limitations, so I may have missed something there. This reply is a bit long, but hope it?s helpful.

I'd also keep the G3X's together. I "could" reach my 3rd screen, but I'd need to really lean over and loosen my shoulder harnesses to do so. 90% of my interaction with the panel is thru the G3X Touch screens. The other 10% would be the AP controller, then the audio panel and GTN.

And with the remote com tuning and flight plan push features coming with the GTN V6 software, you're not going to need to interact much with the GTN. I really only plan on using it to activate approaches.

Hello,

I used the Aerosport G900 panel on my 10. It keeps the screens close to each other. My GTN 650 sits on top of the left screen. I wanted approach related information right in front of me. The right screen is tilted towards me. The audio panel is mounted on top of the right screen. The autopilot and com radio are mounted in between the screens. My backup is mounted on the Co-pilot side. I am using the GRT MiniX with mapping for only one reason: If everything else fails it gives you a 3 deg glide slope to ANY runway that it has stored in its memory. Not sure if the D10 can do that.

Hope that helps.

NovaBandit said:

I'd also keep the G3X's together. I "could" reach my 3rd screen, but I'd need to really lean over and loosen my shoulder harnesses to do so. 90% of my interaction with the panel is thru the G3X Touch screens. The other 10% would be the AP controller, then the audio panel and GTN.

And with the remote com tuning and flight plan push features coming with the GTN V6 software, you're not going to need to interact much with the GTN. I really only plan on using it to activate approaches.

Click to expand...

ethand,
Your equipment list is almost identical to mine. I love having the two screens side by side and I agree with Ed. With the flight plan push to the GTN you will hardly need to touch the GTN but to only activate an approach. I advise not placing the other G3X touch screen in front of the "copilot" seat. It would be too far away to read clearly and use properly since it is a touch screen and you would wind up not using the screen as often. My panel has the AP control head and Audio Panel in the "stack" next to the screens and I like the placement. Nothing is wrong with where you have them located but the audio panel can be a pretty deep box when you include the harness and all the wiring. I would suggest at least moving it a bit to the right to avoid the center instrument panel support frame. Or you will have a lot of modifying on the frame. Good luck!

Here is my panel layout....I'm flying now and the panel is completely finished I just need to take a new picture...sorry.

J Twilbeck said:

ethand,
Your equipment list is almost identical to mine. I love having the two screens side by side and I agree with Ed. With the flight plan push to the GTN you will hardly need to touch the GTN but to only activate an approach. I advise not placing the other G3X touch screen in front of the "copilot" seat. It would be too far away to read clearly and use properly since it is a touch screen and you would wind up not using the screen as often. My panel has the AP control head and Audio Panel in the "stack" next to the screens and I like the placement. Nothing is wrong with where you have them located but the audio panel can be a pretty deep box when you include the harness and all the wiring. I would suggest at least moving it a bit to the right to avoid the center instrument panel support frame. Or you will have a lot of modifying on the frame. Good luck!

Here is my panel layout....I'm flying now and the panel is completely finished I just need to take a new picture...sorry.

Click to expand...

Mine's very similar.. Have to agree with keeping both screens accessible.
Haven't taken pics yet of it installed.

Moderator -

This discussion is applicable to all side by side RVs and should not be buried in the RV-10 section.

Ed

I vote for screens together and I love symmetry.

To answer Rob's question from my perspective. Having non touch screens I have knobs on each screen that I keep relatively dedicated to specific functions. Less of an issue for other EFISs with more knobs and touch EFISs. I typically use the second screen as a map and for georeferenced approach plates and I like it closer to me. The real deal for me, however, would be if my primary died I would want my big backup screen close by. Not far right.

I think that MJ and I have reached a final design for our RV14A. It took 9 different designs to get to this point. We showed our plans to many experienced RVERS and especially Chris and the guys at Steins. As soon as we try the full sized template on the panel and start construction I will post our final design. All I can say at this point is look at all options and seriously consider all suggestions that come your way then make your decision as to the final design. So far this has been the most mind bending part of our build.

Snowflake said:

Can't you get everything you need for single-pilot IFR into the space of a 10" screen (plus a radio stack) if you're using steam gauges... Why can't you do it on a single 10" screen that has multiple split-screen options and pages? (Genuinely curious why you need two 10" screens for IFR).

Click to expand...

Primarily personal preference. Some efis vendors do allow multi tiled screens so you can display two, three, or four windows. While feasible, for my old eyes things start to get small.

I also prefer to leave the map and/or plates on the mfd and hsi and engine sensors on the pfd. It keeps everything nice a big. Like Maxwell stated, it's also a rendundant backup.

RV10 Panel

You opened a can of worms here, but great discussion.

From someone who flies IFR in the 10:
- put the GTN650 within close reach because you will use it a lot.
- you can't use the right side of the panel without difficulty in access.
- The Dynon makes a great backup to the G3X touch. Do you have dual AHRS with the Garmin? If not, the Dynon makes great sense from a redundancy and diversity standpoint. It also has a backup battery and be sure to get it.
- consider a remote radio with NAV capability. Having dual NAV radios is not absolutely necessary, but there are still approaches out there where it is handy. The GPS purists will flame me on this.
- you can move some switches (like flaps, A/P disconnect, aux fuel pump, etc.) to a stick grip: makes access easy.

This is the fun part of building. Your ideas are basically sound and I'm sure Stein will give you good advice. Listen to him.