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RV12iS or Rans S 21 outbound

Awd2gen

Member
I've been back and forth between buying and building an experimental for years and long story short, I have ultimately decided to build. I am currently between a Rans s21 outbound or an RV 12iS.

The RV12iS is the perfect plane to ME in every aspect..except cruise speed. Has anyone that's built E-AB found a way to decently better this to say 135kt at a reasonable altitude in reasonable conditions?

The Rans isn't quite as perfect out of the box to me as the RV12iS but I do have options for LSA or E-AB that are factory supported and can achieve my desired cruise speed but the finished product i'm not sure will have the fit and finish of an RV12.

While a plane will mainly be a "toy" for me, I would like to have a practical and useful reason to have one as well. That being that I have family in FL, SC, and NY. Being able to reach those places in the shortest amount of time possible would fill that practical reasoning.

Has anyone looked into a 915iS in a 12?

soliciting help or input from anyone who wants to chime in!
 
Yes it will be my first build. I?ve looked at the plans for both planes and think both are more than acceptable. Rans is prob more tedious with multiple manuals but by no means a deal breaker.
 
The RV-12 is a terrific kit and a terrific airplane. The nascent S-21 looks very appealing and RANS is a long-time premier kit company. I suspect you will be happy with either one. Be brutally honest and realistic with yourself as to your actual aeronautical needs and desires. Are you a builder or a flyer? Is the incremental cruise speed increase really that important when weighed against your other criteria?

ps -- I doubt you will see any 915iS engines installed in an RV-12.
 
As both an RV builder and owner, I can say that I love the RV. I have a -10 and my dad has a -12. I have become spoiled in how nice and smooth and balanced the RV series of aircraft are to fly.

2 weeks ago, we went to Rans and did a demo flight in the S21. We were looking for a high wing aircraft, but didn't want to compromise on handling characteristics or comfort. The S21 was everything we were hoping for. We flew it in a 25kt wind off a short grass strip. The aircraft was very responsive and had extremely nice flying characteristics.

In addition, the people at Rans were outstanding. They have a great facility with all the equipment you would expect from a kit manufacturer of their standing.

We now have a deposit down on the S21, and I am very much looking forward to the delivery of the kit.


I don't think you can go wrong with either option. They are very different aircraft, and it's important to pick the one that best fits your needs.

Please feel free to email or give us a call if you would like any more information.

Steve
 
2 weeks ago, we went to Rans and did a demo flight in the S21. We were looking for a high wing aircraft, but didn't want to compromise on handling characteristics or comfort. The S21 was everything we were hoping for. We flew it in a 25kt wind off a short grass strip. The aircraft was very responsive and had extremely nice flying characteristics.

In addition, the people at Rans were outstanding. They have a great facility with all the equipment you would expect from a kit manufacturer of their standing.

We now have a deposit down on the S21, and I am very much looking forward to the delivery of the kit.

Other than the fact we did our test flight in Aug--------pretty much a duplicate experience here.


I don't think you can go wrong with either option. They are very different aircraft, and it's important to pick the one that best fits your needs.

Steve

Read Steve's second quote above a couple time --------- this is possibly the best advice you will get on this thread.
 
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I?m assuming your demo flights were with the 912 in the s21? What kinda climb and cruise did you all experience? I lean towards the 340 in the S21.
 
I'll let you know when I'm done! Awaiting my S-21 kit any week now. Love my -12 (560 hours since Aug 2015). The -21 is supposed to fly just as nice,that will keep me chugging along. The different styles of plans and instructions might take a bit to get used to as the -12 step by step instructions were awesome especially after building a Sonex. Might have to crack open a piggy bank for the 915 though. Last I heard its up to a 6 month wait for the Rans. I ordered the complete kit at Oshkosh and still 10 ahead of me. Oh well the Clecos are all polished up and ready to go. I have no rush to complete because the -12 will be calling me on the nice days. Plus might be fun to go EAB this time as Rans doesn't offer ELSA. Thinking nut plates already instead of timmermans and rivnuts. Good luck!
 
You can build the -12 as an E-AB, if you want.

Speeding up a -12 to 135 it's may cause some structural issues as it was designed for 120 knots cruise, I really don't know but it is something that you will need to think about.
 
I'll let you know when I'm done! Awaiting my S-21 kit any week now. Love my -12 (560 hours since Aug 2015). The -21 is supposed to fly just as nice,that will keep me chugging along. The different styles of plans and instructions might take a bit to get used to as the -12 step by step instructions were awesome especially after building a Sonex. Might have to crack open a piggy bank for the 915 though. Last I heard its up to a 6 month wait for the Rans. I ordered the complete kit at Oshkosh and still 10 ahead of me. Oh well the Clecos are all polished up and ready to go. I have no rush to complete because the -12 will be calling me on the nice days. Plus might be fun to go EAB this time as Rans doesn't offer ELSA. Thinking nut plates already instead of timmermans and rivnuts. Good luck!

Are you getting your S 21 with the 915? I think if I go with the s 21 Im going to go with io-340.
 
With a Vne of 136 kts, cruising at 135 kts in an RV-12 is going to take some serious re-design work. Typical average cruise speed in the RV-12 is closer to 115 kts in my experience, which will still outrun your typical Cessna. If you really need the extra speed, then IMHO best to get an aircraft that is designed for it. Maybe the RANS with a Lycoming or an RV-9? Also worth considering how much time you will really save overall by going 20kts faster on a trip from start to finish. It may not be that much in the scheme of things.
 
Trying to do structural modifications isn?t something I even want to attempt. I?ve done some math on the actual time difference and no it?s not mind blowing but it?s very tempting.
 
... but it?s very tempting.

I agree! I'd love to have something that did 180 kts, but I've travelled long distances in the 12 and am very happy with it. All planes are a compromise in one way or another, so you need to choose the one that ticks the most boxes.
 
Like S-21 but still very early in life cycle

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the S-21 at Osh this year. I think eventually it will be a great plane.

My biggest concern at this point is that in my opinion it is still not fully baked - especially the Titan 340 version. If you read the news letters on the Rans website, you can see that they are still doing development work on the plane. The last time I looked the factory does not have an Titan 340 version flying.
 
Correct. I think the 340 version is suppose to be done by the end of the year. They have tested the 340 in the raven with the same wing as the S 21. The S 21 with the io-340(low compression for mogas) and EFII system 32 is my idea but I am hoping to see some info from the s21 340 demo. My plan is to purchase at sun N fun in April. Fingers crossed I can arrange a demo in it and the 12iS
 
S-21/340 Titan

I have also been following the development of this aircraft very closely. And like Awd2gen, I am looking at the low compression 340 equipped Outbound. I just read through all the development bulletins (again) and they hope to have an S-21 with the 340 flying by the end of this month or early next month. I plan on going out to Kansas after they have had some time with the 340 Outbound and look it over. It IS a new design but the wing is flying on a Raven with the 340 and the structure forward of the baggage area is the same or very similar to the Raven. The aft segment is new, longer than the Raven, and probably more stable as a result. There is a lot to like (all metal, side by side seating, low build time) but I would like to see more testing and development prior to "pulling the trigger". In the meantime I hope Vans is watching this thread--I really wish they would get in this market. Doug (and Rans) has certainly demonstrated that their is a demand for this type of homebuilt!!!

You listening Scott??

Cheers,

db
 
I think I?m leaning toward the s21. Fully expected to be leaning towards the 12 after posting on here but appreciate the info from the guys that have looked at both. Honestly been a big help.
 
As both an RV builder and owner, I can say that I love the RV. I have a -10 and my dad has a -12. I have become spoiled in how nice and smooth and balanced the RV series of aircraft are to fly.

2 weeks ago, we went to Rans and did a demo flight in the S21. We were looking for a high wing aircraft, but didn't want to compromise on handling characteristics or comfort. The S21 was everything we were hoping for. We flew it in a 25kt wind off a short grass strip. The aircraft was very responsive and had extremely nice flying characteristics.

In addition, the people at Rans were outstanding. They have a great facility with all the equipment you would expect from a kit manufacturer of their standing.

We now have a deposit down on the S21, and I am very much looking forward to the delivery of the kit.

I don't think you can go wrong with either option. They are very different aircraft, and it's important to pick the one that best fits your needs.

Steve
Steve,

Which engine are you planning on installing? And why that engine?
 
S21

We have 6 years and a couple hundred hours on our Rv12 with a Jabiru 3300 and love it, great little plane, however we are waiting on our S21 kit to ship anytime this month. Rans has done a great job on the fit and finish of the plane from what we have seen. Great attention to detail from the molded plastic parts all over the plane to little things like little rubber stoppers where the door swings up and hits the wing. We love the 12 but the 21 should do everything the Rv does but better on the grass strip we now fly out of.
 
Steve,

Which engine are you planning on installing? And why that engine?

Right now that is still up in the air... no pun intended.

I want to put the S21 on floats, so that will definitely affect the decision and might cause me to go a different direction than if I was going on wheels.

If money were no object, I think that the 915 will be an awesome match for this aircraft.

I am looking at the potential of the Titan 370 engine for the extra power and a gross weight of around 2000 lbs on floats.

It will be fun to start this project and also to see what engines others end up deciding to use. My guess is that there will be a lot of variations and customizations as builders start the firewall forward kits.
 
Like Bob, Mike, Steve and Alex, I am anxiously awaiting my Outbound which should be soon. Last June my wife and I were traveling the country and decided to stop at Rans to have a look. I was able to fly both the Rotax powered Outbound and the Raven fitted with the Outbound wings and a Titan 340. The Rotax Outbound was a perfect gentleman in every regard. It’s control forces and harmony were unforgettable. It’s just too slow for my liking. On the other hand, the Titan powered Raven is an aspiring beast. It checked all my boxes. A month later I inked a deal at Oshkosh. I plan on using a Barrett Precision IO360. They are going to offer a slightly wider cowling to use the 360.
Comparing the 12 with the Outbound is the apple and orange exercise. 12’s are great, I’ve built 2 so far and loved them both. The Outbound has a vne of 215 mph and useful load of 800+ lbs. It’s cockpit and baggage compartment are huge. The day Randy and I were flying, the sock was straight out at Hays Municipal and both handled the wind beautifully. I would describe it as a two seat Cessna 180 with a stick. Hard to get much better than that. I understand they are selling like hot cakes.
 
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We have 6 years and a couple hundred hours on our Rv12 with a Jabiru 3300 and love it, great little plane, however we are waiting on our S21 kit to ship anytime this month. Rans has done a great job on the fit and finish of the plane from what we have seen. Great attention to detail from the molded plastic parts all over the plane to little things like little rubber stoppers where the door swings up and hits the wing. We love the 12 but the 21 should do everything the Rv does but better on the grass strip we now fly out of.
Are you going tricycle or tail dragger?
 
Right now that is still up in the air... no pun intended.

I want to put the S21 on floats, so that will definitely affect the decision and might cause me to go a different direction than if I was going on wheels.

If money were no object, I think that the 915 will be an awesome match for this aircraft.

I am looking at the potential of the Titan 370 engine for the extra power and a gross weight of around 2000 lbs on floats.

It will be fun to start this project and also to see what engines others end up deciding to use. My guess is that there will be a lot of variations and customizations as builders start the firewall forward kits.

So Steve, am I seeing a real nice CNC bent set of fuel lines becoming available to replace the flexible lines for the outbound?
 
I started my RV-12 in 2014. At the time it was my best option for my needs, It was a straightforward build and an easy and fun airplane to fly. But if the Outbound would have been available at the time, I would?ve built it instead.

The RV 12 is a fun low and slow airplane. But if you are looking for low and slow, I think the Outbound is a better option. If Vans would enter the high wing taildragger market, I would probably feel differently. But they do not seem to have an interest in doing so.
 
The RV 12 is a fun low and slow airplane.

I flew two days ago - solo with ten gallons fuel. Initial climb was 1300fpm. OAT was 20F and I saw 143mph IAS at 3000msl @ 5400rpm. Not much wind so I did a few compass runs to verify speed with GPS. Engine makes more power with cold dense air... :D
 
So Steve, am I seeing a real nice CNC bent set of fuel lines becoming available to replace the flexible lines for the outbound?

In short.... YES. As we are doing with the RV series of aircraft, we are very excited about to opportunity to work with other S21 builders to prototype and develop optional aftermarket kits that help make builders' lives easier!
 
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