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Min IFR avonics RV-9

dshevick

Member
I have a single-screen Grand Rapids Sport SX and a comm and a wind leveler and engine monitor and Garmin xponder. I am training IFR. I would rather not buy a Garmin 430W ($6k used). Any ideas how i would become IFR legal (GPS) cheaply as possible?
Thank you,
David
 
You could get a Garmin 300 or 155 (I think) that are IFR certified but not very capable and very primitive.
 
To get GPS as cheaply as possible is likely to source an older King (KLN) and a standalone CDI. Jepp still sells the database updates for the KLN series.

A quick read of the GRT info on the SX says that their ARINC module only works with the Garmin 400/500/600/700 series so you won't get any integration with their EFIS. You'll also likely need to wire up some annunciators for messages.

Lastly, beware that if you're hoping to do your instrument checkride in your RV you'll have to demonstrate 3 different types of approaches. In other words, you can't do 3 different GPS approaches and have it count. When I did mine, I did a GPS, an ILS, and a VOR approach.

KF
 
So many things wrong with the idea of inexpensive ifr...
One EFIS? What will you do if it dies? If it loses its mind (the horizon) how will you even know?
The inexpensive old GPS units mentioned are TSO129 boxes. To be legal you also need a VOR on board. And these non-WAAS boxes cannot do a precision approach.
Problem with checkride and IPC already mentioned (need three different types of approaches).
My suggestion: Install a used SL30 nav com (imho still the best nav com ever built). Train, and take the test, in VFR conditions only. Then decide for yourself what avionics you need, buy and install them. Then get an experienced ifr person to ride shotgun on your first foray into actual IMC.
 
You will be required to have a ground based navigation (VOR) on board if you are planning on a non-WAAS IFR GPS, so be sure you factor that into your cost comparisons.

I'm in the process of overhauling my panel to start IFR training this spring. I'll have a GNS420, SL30, and Grand Rapids Sport EFIS with 2-axis Autopilot and VNAV. I'm likely to throw a GRT Mini in the mix for backup flight instruments.

Don
 
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Val INS429

Hard to beat the VAL INS429 for low cost functionality. It's a VOR/glideslope/marker beacon/CDI/VDI all in one for less than $2000. I just installed a used DME to go with it for about $600. I also bought a nice Garmin 400W for about $3000 which works with my EFIS. Then, there was the heated pitot. With antennas, etc, it probably cost about $7000 for the equipment.

That doesn't include related upgrades like a G5, a backup com, electrical system upgrades and autopilot.
 
I have a used SL30 which brings a higher penny than a new VAL mentioned above, but it has both NAV/COM with standby monitoring. You can track two VORs with one receiver as well. The other handy feature is that it will receive frequency lists from my GRT Sport so I can scroll through a list of frequencies for the particular airport or navaid rather than tune one manually.

Yeah - I'll be adding a lot more gear after I start doing more than train in VMC.
Backup battery for electric ignition and critical systems, backup EFIS and AHRS, heated pitot for starters.

Nothing about IFR is inexpensive. Don't kid yourself :D

Don
 
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I've researched just about every single possibility, but no matter what I can't find much of a better solution than a used GPS400W. One box, one antenna, will link with the Sport SX (but you will need the $500 ARINC adapter). Plus, GPS approaches are only getting more common, whereas the others are going away. I do second the idea of having a 2nd backup EFIS. I have a completely independent Dynon unit with internal backup battery.

The other idea worth mentioning is that if you upgrade to a Horizon unit and add their new 2020 GPS you can at least fly practice approaches. From GRT:

"Our GPS approach function is designed to conform with all requirements of TSO-C129a, and TSO-146C, ?Stand-Alone Airborne Navigation Equipment Using the Global Positioning System Augmented By The Satellite Based Augmentation System? but is not FAA certified. These approaches are legal to use in VFR conditions for instrument instruction and currency. FAR 91.3 allows their use in an emergency."

Chris
 
To get GPS as cheaply as possible is likely to source an older King (KLN) and a standalone CDI. Jepp still sells the database updates for the KLN series.

We are about to remove a working KLN94 and CDI from our 172, to do a full panel retrofit. The KMD550 display is kaput but the KLN94 works fine. PM me if anyone is looking for one.
 
Should the questions be, what is the minimum cost reasonable setup for IFR and what is the sweet spot between cost and functionality (where a little more money gets a lot more function and ease of use)?
 
Should the questions be, what is the minimum cost reasonable setup for IFR and what is the sweet spot between cost and functionality (where a little more money gets a lot more function and ease of use)?

If I could do it again, I would do Horizon Hxr instead of the Sport SX, with a GPS400W. By the time you add the arinc adapter needed for the sport, the costs are close, plus you get much more IFR functionality with the HXr. Add a GRT mini or similar for redundancy.

Chris
 
Should the questions be, what is the minimum cost reasonable setup for IFR and what is the sweet spot between cost and functionality (where a little more money gets a lot more function and ease of use)?

No, wrong question. IFR is serious business. The correct question is, “How much redundancy is needed for you to feel safe?” Obviously this is a subjective question, and requires some knowledge of how various boxes work, and what their failure modes are. e.g., I have an SL30 VOR/ILS, and a Dynon D4 with internal battery, that I have never used, except for practice. But they are there, just in case...

Note added: The OP mentioned training. For that he’ll need to be able to do some non-gps approach, unless he finds an accomodating examiner. Also, what will you gps only guys do if your sole gps box goes down? Or worse, someone jams the signal, or you just happen to get bad geometry (this recently happened to me)?
 
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Also, what will you gps only guys do if your sole gps box goes down? Or worse, someone jams the signal, or you just happen to get bad geometry (this recently happened to me)?

I've heard that a few times, and I've thought about it even though it doesn't apply to the bird I'm presently flying. En route and in the soup I would ask for no-gyro vectors to VFR (that's predicated on having a VFR out which is one of my personal minimums). If you're talking about failure of the box, I'd use whatever VFR GPS I had onboard (for the OP the the GRT box; for me, ForeFlight) to help me even with the vectors. If that's not feasible, ask for a radar approach option. There are probably a couple more things one could do.

If some ne'er-do-well jams the system that's a bad day but again I go back to having a VFR out. Sure, if you're on an approach while that happens you're in for a bad time. But even if I had a ground based backup, am I going to reconfigure for an ILS midway down the approach or try and run the ILS missed? Nah. I'm going to ask for a vector.

I guess, to me, it's no different than back when you only had a VOR approach and worried about the VOR going out of service. Or you had one navcomm and in the panel.

There's only so many cascading errors I'm willing to worry about. I run the hazard analysis and look at probability of failure and decide what is going to keep me up at night. I'd fly with a GTN 625 (plus VFR backup) and a comm radio only.
 
If looking for a less expensive SL30, I *think* that the VAL Com2000 paired with the Nav2000 is supposed to give you SL30 functionality & interface capability, in the same vertical space. Don't take my word for it though; give them a call if that solution interests you.

If I'd known about it earlier, I'd likely have bought those instead of the used non-WAAS 430. I'm not yet rated ( :) ), and getting rated seems less and less likely, so the 430 was a questionable investment for me.

edit: Just saw their remote mount comm & nav for flat screen panels, too.

Charlie
https://www.valavionics.com/products.html
 
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I have plans similar to the OP. The instructor I plan to use said the minimum he and the examiner can work with is an SL30. I have a single EFIS so he requested some backups. I have a GRT Sport and will likely install a GRT Mini as the backup.

Rather than install a SL30 I went with a MGL V16 and will add a N16 when the time comes. Also, the Sport and Mini are compatible with the GNC300XL so I might install one since they are so cheap and I can do the install.
 
I had the same plan until a couple of weeks ago when my instructor pointed out that you have to do 3 different types of approaches for the checkride - tough to do without a GPS and NAV radios. There are multiple types of non-GPS approaches, but it becomes problematic finding one you can actually access. Not impossible, but I went ahead and added a GNC420 to my stack.

I have plans similar to the OP. The instructor I plan to use said the minimum he and the examiner can work with is an SL30. I have a single EFIS so he requested some backups. I have a GRT Sport and will likely install a GRT Mini as the backup.

Rather than install a SL30 I went with a MGL V16 and will add a N16 when the time comes. Also, the Sport and Mini are compatible with the GNC300XL so I might install one since they are so cheap and I can do the install.
 
I had the same plan until a couple of weeks ago when my instructor pointed out that you have to do 3 different types of approaches for the checkride - tough to do without a GPS and NAV radios. There are multiple types of non-GPS approaches, but it becomes problematic finding one you can actually access.

Most people can find a VOR, LOC, and ILS approaches somewhere nearby. They count as three. Unfortunately, GPS-WAAS only gives you two. Non-WAAS, one.

For those comparing the SL-30 to the VAL nav, there is one important difference:
The SL30 can bring in two VORs, or an ILS and a VOR, simultaneously. As MB and LOMs disappear, more and more ILS's now use a VOR cross-fix for the FAF, step downs, etc. My SL30 displays, on my GRT HX, the primary ILS (or VOR) on the HSI needle, and the second VOR as an RMI needle - making the approach with just one nav easy. With the VAL you'll be constantly swapping frequencies back and forth to find that fix, while tracking inbound.
 
Most people can find a VOR, LOC, and ILS approaches somewhere nearby. They count as three. Unfortunately, GPS-WAAS only gives you two. Non-WAAS, one.

For those comparing the SL-30 to the VAL nav, there is one important difference:
The SL30 can bring in two VORs, or an ILS and a VOR, simultaneously. As MB and LOMs disappear, more and more ILS's now use a VOR cross-fix for the FAF, step downs, etc. My SL30 displays, on my GRT HX, the primary ILS (or VOR) on the HSI needle, and the second VOR as an RMI needle - making the approach with just one nav easy. With the VAL you'll be constantly swapping frequencies back and forth to find that fix, while tracking inbound.

The MGL N16 has the same capability as the SL30 which I why I decided I'd give it a try. I've only installed the V16 but will add the N16 in the near future.

I'm lucky in that my home airport has ILS, LOC, and VOR approaches. Until recently it also had a NDB approach.
 
Approaches

I had the same plan until a couple of weeks ago when my instructor pointed out that you have to do 3 different types of approaches for the checkride - tough to do without a GPS and NAV radios. There are multiple types of non-GPS approaches, but it becomes problematic finding one you can actually access. Not impossible, but I went ahead and added a GNC420 to my stack.

I only have a GTN 625 in my plane. I do have multiple portable back ups. So no Nav. I did all my training in my plane and took a check ride in it also. Examiner had me do 2 gps LPV approaches and one LNAV approach. He said the LPV approaches down to 200 AGL are essentially the same as precision ILS approach. You just need to find an examiner that will do this.
 
I thought that's what my first thirteen words said?

Ah!. I think it is a matter of how one interprests the word "reasonable". Your reasonable could be closer to Bobs and mine than others interpretation.

Of course, the point is to plan for system failures such that one is left with a partial panel that will save your bacon. The alternative is not pretty. System failures happen. Done it.
 
........ (where a little more money gets a lot more function and ease of use)?
+1. My poorly expressed opinion was that,for me, I felt I needed to spend considerably more money for equipment that adds no function or ease of use ? that is, unless my two main efis units, or 420W, fails. Then I?ll be really happy I spent the money.
 
Following up on a previous post: I have seen FAA guidance that, on an instrument checkride, an LPV approach to below 300?agl counts as a precision approach, while an LPV to above 300? agl can count as a non-precision approach. And an LNAV approach is, of course, non-precision. Does this mean that doing an LNAV, LPV to above 300?, and LPV to below 300?, can be used as the 3 required approaches on an instrument checkride? Clearly some examiners say yes, while others say two LPV approaches don?t count as ?...3 different kinds of approaches?. My reading of the ACS seems to support the latter. I?m looking for an FAA reference.
 
Let me throw some gasoline on this fire.

1st "define your mission". If you are going to file and fly lots of actual IMC then you should seriously consider a multiple redundant system. If you will rarely fly actual IMC but want something to get you down if you encounter it, then a less redundant system will do. How much redundancy you need depends on your comfort level. Nobody here can decide that for you.

Now let me put my Nomex flight suit on.

:cool:
 
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