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Tip: Drilling out Rivets

Walt

Well Known Member
Thought I'd start a new thread so as not to get lost in the SB thread.

How to remove a rivet without "drilling out the rivet" :confused:

For what it's worth here's the basic process I use for drilling out rivets:

1. Make sure you expose the rivet head (especially csk) remove paint (I use a scotch brite wheel on a high speed grinder).
2. Use a 3/32 or #40 drill for a 1/8" rivet, drill to approx 90% of rivet depth, do not go all the way through!
3. Go back with a #30 to the depth of the head only then pop the head off.
4. Use rivet dolly/bucking bar next to or over rivet tail and then punch rivet out with a 3/32 punch.

if necessary you may step up the size of the drill slightly which is ok as long as you don't go throught the side of the rivet if it won't come out. 99% of the time they will come out with just the #40 drill.

The goal is to not break through the side of the rivet to avoid damaging the rivet hole.

For drilling out 3/32" rivets use the same process just smaller tools/drills as appropriate.
 
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Some of you tool buffs out there may have seen this drill type before

14dn8tk.jpg


I found them on eBay in UK ... the guy selling them called them STD 334 'one shot rivet removal drills' .. Apparently they are used in the RAF ? They have the STD 334 marking on the shank - what is so special about them is the very pointy tip and the profile on the spiral .. Using them to remove rivets are like night and day. The drill does not want to move (wander) when you drill - it is also almost impossible to drill to deep as the drill will jam in the rivet .. sounds strange but if you have low air pressure the drill will 'stop'.

Someone told me they look like plexi glass drills with the pointy tip ? Maybe they will work as well ... not tried it ...

You almost 'want' to remove rivet with this type of drill ... Maybe someone know a US source for them ??
 
Interesting

Seems like these pointy bits in combination
with Walt's recommendations would be a no brainer.
The pointy bits make a lot of sense for centering.

Anyone know where to get these? I have not found
#30 and smaller plexi bits.
 
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With enough attention paid, you can easily "steer" a standard jobber bit to the center of the rivet. I almost exclusively use machine screw length drill bits these days for superior control. If you just close your eyes and pull the trigger, you aren't paying enough attention :). I recently had an epiphany that I needed to be using reading glasses for such tasks.
 
Steering the bit

I hear ya about steering the bit as it seems more often
than not this must be done and not always with great results.
How great would it be to get it dead nut center every time
without having to focus on steering the bit! The obtuse angle
on the standard bits seem to be the source of wandering
off center even with starting with high speed and low pressure.
 
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What is a rivet dolly?

Any heavy object with a hole in it for the rivet tail to back up the structure while you're beating the rivet out!
A bucking bar next to the rivet can work but does not give support all around the rivet you are attempting to pursuade out.
 
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I have used Walt's procedure to remove thousands of rivets. When I'm in "production" mode I can remove approx. 10-20 rivets per minute. I will also ruin a hole once in a while.
If you take your time, you should achieve error free results executing this part of the SB. It is also a lot easier on .032 skins than .025.
Use a sharp drill. I also use a pin punch the size of my drill to pop the top. Make sure it is sharp.

Keep in mind, the hole will be slightly larger after rivet removal especially in thin skins. Rivets swell when set. The hole still should be well within tolerance. However, if you get a rivet that just seems sloppy, fatten it slightly by gently squeezing it, then reinsert it in the hole and set it. That will make it easier to set. A sloppy rivet likes to hangnail.

Good luck.
 
Some of you tool buffs out there may have seen this drill type before

14dn8tk.jpg


I found them on eBay in UK ... the guy selling them called them STD 334 'one shot rivet removal drills' .. Apparently they are used in the RAF ? They have the STD 334 marking on the shank - what is so special about them is the very pointy tip and the profile on the spiral .. Using them to remove rivets are like night and day. The drill does not want to move (wander) when you drill - it is also almost impossible to drill to deep as the drill will jam in the rivet .. sounds strange but if you have low air pressure the drill will 'stop'.

Someone told me they look like plexi glass drills with the pointy tip ? Maybe they will work as well ... not tried it ...

You almost 'want' to remove rivet with this type of drill ... Maybe someone know a US source for them ??
I will kill to find some.
 
As long as the bit is sharp, turning the bit by hand initially makes the procedure fairly easy and consistent. Turned by hand, a sharp jobber with slight pressure bites and really begins to start a nice hole. After that, as long as I do not get impatient (checking my depth as to not descend past the head or drill off angle) drilling the head off is rather straightforward. As others have said, the bit is steerable back to center if you begin to drift.
 
What has worked best for me is to use a cordless drill to drill the rivet head.

The drill can be started and run very slowly and greatly helps keep the bit centered.
Then after you have a good pilot hole you can speed up the drilling process.

Works for me!

Glenn Wilkinson
 
Regardless of the rivet size I always start with a really small drill bit, like 1/16 or smaller. A bit that small will stay centered in the little divot on top of the rivet pretty easily (and if the rivet doesn't have one, I make one with a center-punch). No pressure, just high speed on the drill making sure to keep it perpendicular to the surface. I drill about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through the rivet head and then up-size to the next drill bit. I'll usually hit each rivet with 2-3 different bits depending on the size. By starting small and going up in increments it's much easier to adjust if your hole gets off-center. Starting small and moving up also makes it easier to keep from drilling all the way through the rivet since you can feel when the bit hits the end of the hole you've already drilled. Since I started doing it this way I've yet to mess one up.

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
 
If you do happen to drill a hole off center you can walk the bit back to center (the machinist term is ?draw? it to center) as long as you catch it before you have reached the full diameter of the bit. You do this by putting a small mar on the edge of the hole with a cold chisel. The bit will walk towards the mar. You can move the bit over a little at a time. I suggest practicing on scrap to master the technique before trying it on your plane.
 
Minimizing hole damage while removing rivets

Not wanting to hijack Walts thread, but since it seems he was opening discussions on processes to use, I thought I would add a detailed explanation on how I do it. I hope some of you find it useful....

Regardless of how experienced a person is, it is nearly impossible for them to remove rivets by drilling down the length of the shank with a net size drill bit. Even a slightly smaller bit (3/32 instead of #40) will do little to help with the level of success.

The following is a process I have used for many years. Though I have very little experience with anything larger than 3/16, with slight variation it should work for everything from 3/32 rivets on up to what ever size you are dealing with.

1. Center punch the rivet head. If it is an AD rivet , use the identifier dimple in the head center otherwise eyeball where the center is.

2. Use a drill bit sized the same as the hole you are removing the rivet from, to drill into the rivet head just deep enough that the full diam. of the drill bit is at a depth approx. the same as the thickness of the manufactured head of the rivet (the point of the drill will be just slightly below the material surface of the underlying part/skin). I use a cordless drill running at slow speed. This gives me time to drift the hole back to center before the full diam of the drill point penetrates the rivet head. Some people prefer to start with a smaller diam. drill. This does help it stay centered in the previously made center punch, but for me it is far easier to tell by eye if the bit is staying centered, if the drill bit is closer to the actual diam. of the manufactured head of the rivet. Experiment and see what works best for you.

When in a situation where an angle drill must be used, I make a little wood spacer for the throttle lever and tape it to the handle so that it prevents the lever from being depressed all the way. You can then set the drill speed using the pressure reg. for the air line, and have it run at a consistent speed every time (this seems to work more consistently than turning the pressure way down low and opening the throttle all the way)

3. Use a drift punch or the blunt end of a drill bit that closely matches the hole diam., and pop the rivet head off? insert the punch and tilt it over to the side to snap the head off. If it doesn't immediately pop off, try prying in multiple directions? you may have been (hopefully) just a little bit off center with your drilling.


The reason for this next step is to relieve the expansion of longer rivets within holes, and give the rivet a space to collapse in on it self as it is being pulled or driven out.
If you were to look at a cross section view of most rivet holes, it is far from being a smooth bore. There are minute little relief areas because of the small chamfers that occur on the hole edges while deburring. If one or more dimples are involved, then there is even more void areas. When the rivet was originally set, the rivet shank swelled into all of these areas to some degree. That makes it grab and resist being pushed/pulled out of the hole.

4. Once the rivet manufactured heads are removed, change to using a drill bit one rivet hole size smaller than the hole you are working with (1/16? for #40 hole, #40 for #30 hole, etc.). The goal in this step is to drill down the center of the rivet shank, but stop short of drilling through the shop head on the other end. The ideal stopping point is about ? the rivet diameter before entering the shop head. On longer rivets, you can wrap some tape around the drill bit to use as a depth stop.

In cases where a short rivet (usually 3/32) is used to attach a skin to a rib, etc., you can usually skip this step, as the rivet is small enough it will still shrink and pull out easily without drilling a relief hole (using the rotating removal process described in the next step)..

The goal of the next step is to utilize the relief hole we drilled previously, to cause the rivet to stretch in length. If it will stretch in length, it will slightly shrink in diam. This will help get the rivet to let go of all of the small void areas within the rivet bore, and reduce the friction inside the smooth part of the bore allowing it to slide out much more easily.

5. This can be done two different ways.
The first is what works best with rivets 1/8 ? and larger, but particularly larger than 1/8?.
Insert a pin punch in the relief hole and drive with a hammer. Depending on the structure you are working on, you may need to also back up the material around the shop head to avoid distortion, but since you are driving at the bottom of the relief hole, the rivet should begin to shrink in diam. with the very first hit, and drive out relatively easily.

The second way to shrink the rivet diam is by rotating it. I have a rivet removal tool made of a long handle side cutters similar to THESE. They have the smooth face (facing you in the photo) ground down slightly, and polished smooth so that the sharp portion of the cutter can get very close to the surface of a flange or skin to grab a rivet shop head. Note, they must be a long handle variety to provide enough leverage to grab the rivets tightly enough.
I grab a rivet shop head with the tool, squeeze hard, and wiggle the tool back and forth quickly, trying to rotate the rivet. Once you can get it to move about 10 deg., you can usually tilt the tool (while still squeezing hard) and pry the rivet out of the hole. This has low risk of causing any distortion to the parts (if you were able to get the rivet to break free and rotate) and it can be done with one hand? you don?t have to hold a hammer and punch, and then somehow also hold something to back up the material for the force of the hammering.
The added benefit is that you can use the process in areas where it is not possible get a punch and hammer onto the rivet. A perfect example being the rivets within the two skin bays of the horizontal stab., that attach the top and bottom angles to the spar webs, that need to be removed to install the spar doubler for the S.B. If the relief hole is drilled deep enough, even though the material stackup thickness is .157? the rivet will easily collapse and pull out using the side cutter tool.

Extra tips?
When working in difficult areas, particularly where you might be using an angle drill where determining drill alignment is difficult, start with a hole that you can install a cleco in after rivet removal and still have access to the rivet(s) adjacent to it. The cleco can then be used as a visual guide to determine if the drill bit is square to the surface.

Try and avoid drilling through the shop head when drilling the relief hole. It removes the ability to drive with a punch in the bottom of the hole (obvious) and it increase the possibility that the shop head will break off the end of the rivet before you can get it rotated or pulled/pried out.

Short 3/32 rivets (ones that attach skins, etc.) remove very easily using the rotate / pry out method. I use this process exclusively when removing skins, etc. When the only drilling done, is just what is required to get the manufactured heads removed, there is very low risk of damaging the holes.
 
Thanks!

Great advice here, thanks to all for taking the time to share your knowledge & wisdom :)
 
One thing that I've found that seems to help and I must admit I'm not an expert, is to use my lower pressure line to run the drill. The drill has less torque and is easier to control. It does of course drill slower too.
 
One thing that I've found that seems to help and I must admit I'm not an expert, is to use my lower pressure line to run the drill. The drill has less torque and is easier to control. It does of course drill slower too.

One of the best tools right behind the band saw and tungsten BB was the DeWALT 12V. Lithium ion drill. 2Lb and no compressor to run. Most used tool on the project!
 
Cleaveland removal tool?

Has anyone tried the Cleaveland rivet removal tool? Talking about this one:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/

I have the most trouble with round head rivets, using a split-point jobber bit. It just loooves to wander! Was thinking about using a plexiglass angle bit, but then I found this tool, which seems like an even more fool proof solution. Paying $50 for the apparent piece of mind that you will *never* screw up a rivet removal seems worth it. Any experience with it?
 
I actually have one of those I'm going to put up for sale. I think I bought mine from Avery but it's the same concept. I'll sell it for $45 shipped in CONUS. It's very lightly used.
 
The trick for round head universal rivets is to grind/file a flat on top of the manu head to give you a stable surface to work from and use the normal procedure for rivet removal.

While it is easily written in practice getting access to the rivet head with the proper tool to make the flat is considerably harder.

YMMV

Glenn Wilkinson
 
Has anyone tried the Cleaveland rivet removal tool? Talking about this one:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/

I have the most trouble with round head rivets, using a split-point jobber bit. It just loooves to wander! Was thinking about using a plexiglass angle bit, but then I found this tool, which seems like an even more fool proof solution. Paying $50 for the apparent piece of mind that you will *never* screw up a rivet removal seems worth it. Any experience with it?

Never used ... (only enough to make my mind up that its useless ... :) )

I only use the drills .. the fit in my angle drill ! For drilling out rivets ... try a VERY pointy drill bit .. the sharper the angle the better ...
 
Never used ... (only enough to make my mind up that its useless ... :) )

I only use the drills .. the fit in my angle drill ! For drilling out rivets ... try a VERY pointy drill bit .. the sharper the angle the better ...

Differing opinion. I can't see how drilling out a 470 could be any easier. A few caveats to the tool - 1) it is pretty large. If you have access to use the tool, drilling without it probably wouldn't be extremely difficult, although this tool prevents slipping off the head. 2). You cannot see the bit/head when using, so you must check often to monitor drill depth - not really a big deal.

Thanks for the note about the bits. I have the tool tucked away for its sporadic (knock wood) use, and never made the connection with the bits and my angle drill;)
 
Has anyone tried the Cleaveland rivet removal tool? Talking about this one:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/

I have the most trouble with round head rivets, using a split-point jobber bit. It just loooves to wander! Was thinking about using a plexiglass angle bit, but then I found this tool, which seems like an even more fool proof solution. Paying $50 for the apparent piece of mind that you will *never* screw up a rivet removal seems worth it. Any experience with it?

I have the ATS version of this tool. I chuck it in my 90 deg. Die grinder which helps to keep the tool square to the work vs a drill motor but I use both depending. I have removed hundreds of rivets with it. I will break a bit from time to time if I am moving fast. I could not imagine doing what I do without it.
 
Several times I have used a metal cutting disc in my dremel to quickly grind off the factory head of a 470 rivet, when I don't have good access for a drill. If you go slow and careful,it's very easy to take off most of the material, and then just pop off the remaining sliver, and punch out the rivet. Can also be carefully done on the shop head.
 
470 rivets were my nemesis, more than 70% were bad when driving. Now, after lots of removal practice, and learning how to drive them, now neither is a problem.

No extra tool needed for removal, just practice, or find someone with skill for training.

I do love tools though, I just bought a countersink dial indicator. That is a nice tool. I just hate checking each countersink with a rivet.

Edit 2/26/16 : Some time ago I saw a video of how quickly the alignment tool can be used to remove a 470 rivet. I bought one and it is fantastic! Very quick, very precise alignment and it has a depth stop for the drill point. Highly recommended if you will be removing many. I may be used on the shop head if they are nicely formed. Depth is not as accurate.
 
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I have one of those drill tools that works great for 470 rivets.
I have a tool that works great for pulling rivets out once the head has been drilled, it works even if the head has not been fully removed most of the time.
The tool I have is made for removing frets from a guitar.
Mine came from Stewart-MacDonald, stewmac.com. part #1637.
I do not know how to post a link. They also have a heavy cutter model #0619.
This can cut rivets, such as cutting the shop head off if needed.
 
Don't lube the bit

I think I found my problem: using Boelube on the bit after every few holes really makes the bit too slippery! A clean bit sticks to the 470 heads without slipping and I have no issues with drilling the 470s out without a tool now. Just need to keep the bit clean and dry, no lube.

A Cobalt bit on thin sheet metal basically doesn't need lube anyway. I am now using the stuff only for drilling into thick plates or steel.
 
Rivet squeezer to "punch" out the rivet

After removing the head of the rivet, whenever possible, I use my rivet squeezer to force the shank out. For instance, if it is an AD4 size rivet, I use a #30 male dimpler in my squeezer, but do not use the female counterpart. this forces the bad rivet out with minimal force. If the rivet shank gets stuck in the female side of the squeezer, I use an old drill bit to tap it out. A big advantage using this method is that I do not have to pound the rivet out, thus avoiding the possibility of damage.
 
Remove paint over rivet?

The original posters first step is to

1. Make sure you expose the rivet head (especially csk) remove paint (I use a scotch brite wheel on a high speed grinder).

I just removed a few hundred rivets on a RV6 tail cone I'm rebuilding and I did not do this step? The previous project owner did use this step on the top forward skin to remove some avionics. This forward top skin will not be replaced and will be re-riveted in place But now, it has all these deep surface areas over the rivets removed and looks and feels very unsightly. Why remove the paint over the rivet being removed. I've skipped that step removing the tailcone skins and it's worked out OK? Am I missing something?
 
Removing paint

No. The only reason is to break the edge where the rivet is going to come off so it doesn't take extra paint with it. There's a tool for it I think.
 
Supporting the material when punching out the rivet

My experience is that I have done unnecessary damage when trying to punch out the rivet shank once the manufactured head is drilled off. More so when dealing with thicker material like when dealing with spar doublers. At the advice of a friend at the EAA chapter meeting, I made myself various little punch guides.

I had ordered 1" dia steel round bar and cut a few pieces 1" long.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LYatZ8ANFNA/VOKVwMfIcTI/AAAAAAAAAno/O_l4i7NVctM/s1600/IMG_1976.JPG

I then drilled a 15/64" hole in the center of one. Others I drilled off center. The 15/64" hole will allow the shop head of a AD4-X and AD5-X rivet to fit inside. When you are punch a rivet shank out by placing this handy little tool over the rivet, you support the area around it and you do not bend any aluminum.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-n1iXwTFerCM/VOKVwOIVzxI/AAAAAAAAAns/k54IT8M8lJE/s1600/IMG_1977.JPG

Drilling the 15/64" half way through the round bar will allow a friend to hold it tight as you punch without driving the punch into their fingers. (Ask me how I know!) This has saved me so much headaches in removing rivets :D

P.S. Use gorrilla tape on top of the steel guide so you don't marr the aluminum you are working on.
 
When drilling out -3 rivets, I'll start the hole with a #50 drill, then drill it out with the #40.

Likewise, when removing -4 rivets, I'll start with a #40 bit and then go to the #30 bit.

This gives me greater control and reduces the likelihood of ruining the hole.

Dave
 
Don't Put Junk In Your Plane

When you're removing rivets, stick a piece of duct tape over the shop head and that'll capture the debris. It won't roll into some hard-to-get-to part of the airframe.

f9dued.jpg


If that photo doesn't show up try this.

Dave
 
How do I get drill these rivets out?

I'm starting SB-14 and just need to drill out the 8 rivets on the flange connecting to the spar. I can't get a drill in there and the angle drill still hits the rib which won't allow me to drill straight down into the rivet.

Thanks for the help!

IMG_2963a.jpg
 
Right angle attachment

Do you have one of these?
I use it to drill in close quarters. First with #40. Center punch is your friend.
2432dcx.jpg
 
I'm starting SB-14 and just need to drill out the 8 rivets on the flange connecting to the spar. I can't get a drill in there and the angle drill still hits the rib which won't allow me to drill straight down into the rivet.

Thanks for the help!

I use a 12" 1/16" bit to pilot drill the head, then move up in sizes. You can flex the bit with your fingers (although I made a brass guide) enough to clear the drill motor and chuck.
 
Rivet remover 'tool'

This works well with rivets needing to be removed close to an edge. I had the swivel head on one of my 1" clamps disappear. I rarely throw anything away, and finally came up with a good use for the dismembered clamp.

I sharpened the end of the screw in shaft. As the pics below show, I used a 1/4" drive 3/16" socket as the backing and receptacle for the shop end of the rivet to be drilled out.

Use the good advice in this thread to drill and remove the manufactured head of the rivet to be removed.

Then simply place the socket over the shop head of the rivet and screw the clamp shaft into the rivet. Works quite easily.

I used it for a while with the socket loose, and manually lined it up with the clamp. I finally broke down and used JB Weld to permanently attach the socket (which I cut shorter for a little more room between the jaws of the clamp)

I also recently discovered that when drilling the manufactured head off the rivet, and part of the head pry's up but not quite all of it, instead of drilling more, I place the tool over it and when screwing down it pops the manufactured head off at the same time as poking the shop head into the socket.







 
Does anyone have a source for the original posters drill bits? I cant find a Jobber bit in 3/32, or #40 with the 60 degree point. Any help is appreciated!
 
Does anyone have a source for the original posters drill bits? I cant find a Jobber bit in 3/32, or #40 with the 60 degree point. Any help is appreciated!

Actually, the OP just used standard drill bits.


The second post, however: You might give Cleaveland a call, that looks like a plexiglass bit.
 
I had the occasion today to try to drill out a 470 and soon found keeping a drill (135 degree) centered to be nearly impossible. I made up a simple drill jig that centers the drill on the rounded head and sends the drill dead down the middle of the rivet. It can also act as a drill stop so you don't drill clear through. If you use it for a stop you will have to clear the chips from the guide tool several times.

Of course, a different drill jig will be needed for each rivet diameter. I did mine in a lathe because I have one, it can be done in a drill press by a very good eye for the center of the fixture. I do not recommend trying to make one with a hand drill and a vise.

I cannot be the first person to make one of these :)

drillpilot.JPG
 
I had the occasion today to try to drill out a 470 and soon found keeping a drill (135 degree) centered to be nearly impossible. I made up a simple drill jig that centers the drill on the rounded head and sends the drill dead down the middle of the rivet. It can also act as a drill stop so you don't drill clear through. If you use it for a stop you will have to clear the chips from the guide tool several times.

Of course, a different drill jig will be needed for each rivet diameter. I did mine in a lathe because I have one, it can be done in a drill press by a very good eye for the center of the fixture. I do not recommend trying to make one with a hand drill and a vise.

I cannot be the first person to make one of these :)

drillpilot.JPG

Here is a commercially available tool. You can set the drill depth and chips clear automatically. I have used this to remove hundreds of 470's. Works on all sizes.
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/#.Wa6qQdRHarU
 
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