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uAvionix EchoUAT and Disappearing Targets

Wonder why they don't simply make those 2 variable user configurable. I would like to see further than 20 miles when I'm out in the middle of nowhere with no traffic. It should be easy for them to allow you to set user defined limits, and then set a "max intruders" setting that is settable from 10 to 32 or something like that.

The GRT SX EFIS (and other models Im sure) provides user configurable filtering of traffic based on both lateral distance and altitude difference. It works quite well with the ECHO UAT/GRT SafeFly GPS unit. There is also a "Traffic Alert Window" that will pop up on the map page when traffic is within 2 nm that really gets your attention. You can activate that feature from Set Menu, Moving Map, Traffic Alert Window.

Erich
 
UAT Echo

I have been flying with the UAT Echo for about a week now and I would hate the thought of not having traffic and weather. I have had a few instances of disappearing and reappearing traffic as others have reported. Once I had my wiring complete, Jeff at GRT spent about an hour plus directing the set up which was way beyond my skills but he persisted until it worked on both my Horizon EX and secondary Sport EX. On a recent cross country flight, having the traffic available on her screen, got my wife a whole lot more involved and engaged than ever before, which is a real positive to me. In retrospect, I would trade the upgrade touch screens for a heads up display, as I find the buttons more than sufficient. Today on my BFR flight, my CFI was also pulling up traffic on ForeFlight using his iPad. I heartily recommend the GRT EFIS/UAT ECHO combo if you are sitting on the fence like I was.
 
I emailed Kurt @ uAvionix Support for an update on Disappearing Targets. Here is his response:

We have tested 3 builds so far and are getting closer. Testing continues because we have seen interesting behavior on data handling through some of the EFB and EFIS platforms. The way some of them do coasting is a bit of an issue. We have a build being tested now on a couple EFB's.
 
I flew to Baton Rouge Louisiana Friday then back to my home base of Foley, Alabama Saturday afternoon. I was paying particular attention to traffic and noticed on both trips several targets performing the magic trick of disappearing. I'll be happy when there's a solution from Uavionix. I know they're suppose to be working on it.
 
Flew yesterday with a second plane in near-trail formation. Planes separated by ~ 1 mile. Both planes equipped with ADS-B in/out. My plane has echoUAT + SkyFYX-EXT with WiFi to mini iPad running ForeFlight. The second plane has dual Dynon HDX. We were in constant air-air comm and when I lost targets the second plane reported that I disappeared from his traffic screen. When I regained traffic on my iPad the second plane reported that I returned as traffic on his screen.

Has anyone else seen this?

I?m going to send this info to uAvionix and see what they say.
 
Update...

I emailed uAvionix with above disappearing target information and they got back to me right away. They asked for N# and date of flight. I supplied the flight info and attached the PAPR for the flight in question and they said they are able to get an even more detailed PAPR... maybe because they are a mfg.

So, uAvionix has our attention and is actively working to find a solution...
 
Has anyone else seen this?

Yes I've seen this type of thing happen while flying with friends with different makes and models of ADS-B equipment.

The ADS-B protocols have no provisions for dealing with contention or congestion. Get used to it, there's no fixing this. Not a good design.
 
The issue has nothing to do with protocols and congestion. It's not something that happens with all systems. Now that I've switched to the Lynx Transponder, nothing disappears ever, and everything works exactly as one would expect it to. This being my 3rd system installed in each of 2 planes, I can say that the disappearing is unique to my 2nd system...the echo.
 
The issue has nothing to do with protocols and congestion.

Thats because they've implemented coasting.

The 978 protocol does not have any sort of mechanism to prevent collisions or request retransmissions if two or more nodes transmit at the same time.
 
Ah, sorry Rocketbob, with your reply I understand what you are saying. On the Lynx they implement coasting. Yes, I think basically all good systems implement coasting to one degree or another, because you're right, you can receive those broadcasts any time even from 2 people at the same time. Coasting absolutely helps get rid of disappearing. It's one of the things we did in our box to fix all that mess with the Echo. Sadly, it's just one of the many things that aren't done quite right. I'm not sure what qualifies as "the biggest" problem, but certainly one important one is also the lack of sorting, so you may pick up a target 50 miles away but not pick up one that's 1 mile away. But I won't go on and on anymore about it. I pulled mine out, stuck in the L3, and couldn't be happier. If people want to build the filter box, all the info is available, and they help a lot.
 
From what I understand the Packet Error Rate (PER) on 978 is around 33%. So 33% of packets get stepped on, lost, whatever. The ground stations lose these packets and don't rebroadcast them, so they get dropped. Add shadowing, less than ideal antennas, etc. one can see how the system is flawed.

Coasting is the bandaid fix for these flaws.

No other countries have adopted the 978 standards, and this sort of thing tells me why.
 
From what I understand the Packet Error Rate (PER) on 978 is around 33%. So 33% of packets get stepped on, lost, whatever. The ground stations lose these packets and don't rebroadcast them, so they get dropped. Add shadowing, less than ideal antennas, etc. one can see how the system is flawed.

Coasting is the bandaid fix for these flaws.

No other countries have adopted the 978 standards, and this sort of thing tells me why.

In layman's terminology... are you saying uAvionix can't fix disappearing targets with software revision? When they say they're working on fix - you think it's technically not possible...
 
I don't know the software ins and outs, but the Navworx install had no disappearing targets and it only received the 978 signal. Echo gets both 978 and 1090 traffic directly. I still am hopeful (maybe I am naive) that a software fix from Uavionix Echo is feasible.
 
In layman's terminology... are you saying uAvionix can't fix disappearing targets with software revision? When they say they're working on fix - you think it's technically not possible...

Most systems "fix" the problem by caching the targets for a period of time after the target disappears. Sometimes the target reappears and you don't notice the difference. They likely just need to tweak their software to cache closer targets longer. This is an educated guess.

Also what I am saying is that the ADS-B 978 protocol is poorly designed, so 978 units have to make up for technical deficiencies of the system. This is one of the reasons why no other countries have adopted the same system.
 
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Is this problem unique to UAT? e.g., there are more 1090 SES units out there than UATs. Do UATs run at lower speeds?
 
I don't know the RF side of things with nearly as much detail as the serial side of things, but it seems to me that both 978mhz and 1090mhz would have the same basic transmissions, and it's something like once per second that they send their information. There's less bandwidth in the 1090mhz spectrum overall, but on the 978mhz side, they also send weather/notam information too. So in some respects I can see that taking a bit of that larger bandwidth up. Still, I am doubtful that the simple fact of sticking wx+traffic on the 978mhz side should cause any worse traffic issues than on the 1090mhz side. I think really that most everybody in Avionics does some coasting. And I think that on either side, that helps a lot. I know for sure when I was still running the echos, that adding traffic sorting and then coasting did some drastic improvements to the traffic functionality of the system. If you simply strip out the non-factor traffic, that drastically too would improve the serial data flow. So getting better function out of the system should not be THAT hard. We did it ourselves. What really got me to give up was the constant ghost/shadow targets that I simply could not get rid of. With NavWorx, it was a VERY VERY occasional thing. But that box had a lot stronger transmitter. I think the very much less powerful transmitter in these micro boxes probably adds to the shadow target problem because you have radar stations picking up your transponder from far far away, but the GBT may not "see" your UAT signal at the same time. That makes it much harder for the system to merge these targets. I was getting shadows all the time when flying around MSP airspace, doing flight profiles that were never a problem before. And, even with the new Lynx, are not a problem. I really got tired of hearing "traffic" only to see it located at my own position. I think we got that all figured out too, but after spending hundreds of hours and probably nearly $1000 extra dollars on stuff along the way, I felt it was best just to move on. There are just too many things that really should be improved, and transmitter power is one that I couldn't do anything with.
 
I emailed Kurt at uAvionix again to ask if any progress on echoUAT disappearing targets. Ryan at uAvionix Support replied and sent a software “build” for me to try and report back.

Problem is I fly off of a grass field and this fall it is a total swamp with all the rain in the northeast. I may not fly again until spring.

I asked uAvionix if others could try and evaluate this new software. Ryan asks that each person wanting to try the software to contact him so he can control the release.

Email…. [email protected]
Attn: Ryan

You can find the file update process here: http://uavionix.com/support/update-echouat-software/

Keep me in the loop... :D

Jim
 
I went out to the plane today and installed the new uAvionix software "build" for disappearing targets. Updating the echoUAT is easy even without internet connectivity at the hanger. Thought I might be able to fly - ended up walking the runway and determined its still too wet for ops. Probably now have to wait until runway freezes hard.
 
Tried the latest firmware build the other day. Went on a 30 minute flight out, then back again after a lunch break. Was in a radar service area the whole flight. Set the ADS-B 'hockey puck' in my GRT EFIS to 15 nm and +/- 3500 feet. Watched carefully the whole flight. The airspace wasn't real busy, but did NOT see any disappearing targets. Happy so far.
 
People are "heads down" focused on their glass, can lose the art of scanning for traffic and situational awareness. ADS-B "IN" is a wonderful thing, but sole over reliance on it for traffic avoidance might not be wise. There's no guarantee all traffic will show up after 2020. There's a lot of non ADS-B airspace below 10,000 feet (or 2,500 feet agl), outside Class B & C, plus no-electrical system aircraft. TCAS in airliners uses a totally separate system from ADS-B, but still relies on at least traffic with Mode C transponders. You still have to look. I have seen traffic that was not on the TCAS, and it was close.

This is a pretty good source of traffic scanning and collision avoidance.

https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aircraft-operations/visual-scanning-and-collision-avoidance
 
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Tried the latest firmware build the other day. Went on a 30 minute flight out, then back again after a lunch break. Was in a radar service area the whole flight. Set the ADS-B 'hockey puck' in my GRT EFIS to 15 nm and +/- 3500 feet. Watched carefully the whole flight. The airspace wasn't real busy, but did NOT see any disappearing targets. Happy so far.

Good news... Please keep us updated with future flights.

Also, uAvionix has asked that you report your observations back to them. Perhaps they will change this software from "build" to a permanent revision.
 
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People are "heads down" focused on their glass, can lose the art of scanning for traffic and situational awareness.

Your point is well taken, but in my case, I come from flying a J3-Cub for 23 years so I'm pretty astute at scanning for traffic and situational awareness. I use ADS-B to look ahead to start getting "picture" of traffic at destination. In my opinion this helps with situational awareness and improves resource management.
 
Tried the latest firmware build the other day. Went on a 30 minute flight out, then back again after a lunch break. Was in a radar service area the whole flight. Set the ADS-B 'hockey puck' in my GRT EFIS to 15 nm and +/- 3500 feet. Watched carefully the whole flight. The airspace wasn't real busy, but did NOT see any disappearing targets. Happy so far.

I'm not seeing any newer system software on uAvionix's website than release 3.26, dated 3/13/18. Am I missing something?
 
So glad to see this latest report. My wing tank is off for repairs. Soon as it's back on, I'm going to get this software installed.
 
I spoke with Kurt today and received the beta firmware update for the ECHO UAT. I went to the hanger this evening and installed it without a hitch. Unfortunately, here along the Alabama gulf coast we're going to get rain and nasty weather this weekend and we had some drizzly rain move in today. I'm looking forward to testing it out ASAP and will post my results here along with letting Kurt know as well. He did tell me that the reports they've received with this latest beta firmware is positive! Stay tuned.
 
I'm looking forward to testing it out ASAP and will post my results here along with letting Kurt know as well. He did tell me that the reports they've received with this latest beta firmware is positive! Stay tuned.
What are you displaying traffic on? iPad running ForeFlight?
 
My display is the iFly 740 from Adventure pilot. I also use a nexus tablet. I did fly this evening for maybe 20 minutes and am happy to report I don't think I saw any disappearing targets. I was flying alone so my eyeball time had to be split between outside and inside. I will continue to monitor....... But so far so good!
 
Loving this thread !

I'm very interested in buying the Echo with the SkyFYX GPS for my RV-8 but I'll be looking at -IN targets on my iPad Mini using WingX.

My other -OUT option is a Garmin but that's more expensive and I'm still going to need a Stratux or something like that for the -IN to my WingX.

Hopefully they'll have it all fixed by the end of the year. Where I fly it's not going to be mandated so I can wait out a fix but I'd like to buy it as soon as it's working correctly for additional safety.

Thanks to all of you who are sending your data to uAvionix to help solve this issue.
 
Hopefully they'll have it all fixed by the end of the year. Where I fly it's not going to be mandated so I can wait out a fix but I'd like to buy it as soon as it's working correctly for additional safety.
e.

Just to be clear, ADSB-in will not be mandated anywhere.
 
Just to be clear, ADSB-in will not be mandated anywhere.

I know but just installing -IN leaves you without the benefits of the ground station repeating those aircraft without ADSB, and in this area it will be most aircraft.
 
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Another update on the Echo UAT and disappearing targets. I've flown a few more times with the Beta software upgrade and haven't seen any targets pulling a vanishing act.
 
ECHO beta firmware update. I've flown several times since installing the update middle of last month and have not noticed anything disappearing. A couple days ago I was in the Pensacola/NAS Pensacola class C and there was plenty of flying going on. Seems everything is working as it should. Happy so far!
 
ECHO beta firmware update. I've flown several times since installing the update middle of last month and have not noticed anything disappearing. A couple days ago I was in the Pensacola/NAS Pensacola class C and there was plenty of flying going on. Seems everything is working as it should. Happy so far!

What is the version number of the beta update that uAvionix is sending nowadays. I installed echoUAT-system-3.29.uav and echoUAT-transceiver-2.4.42-20W.uav quite a few months ago. Wonder if they have made other changes since my install. Is working very well for me also. Nothing is disappearing.
 
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I'm sorry, When I did the update, I had the information/version number and any additional information written down. No idea what I've done with that and I don't remember the version. Refer to post number 69. I spoke with Kurt and he gave me detailed instructions on what to do for the update. I'm sure a quick call will give you the latest version.
 
Sharing the Beta -- No disappearing targets

Three of us at KCLW are "sharing" version 2.4.43 of the Beta ---- we believe that the update is successful in that we are not seeing any targets blinking out. One plane has GRT screens, two of us have AFS screens, and all three have other, portable displays. Traffic is good on all.

Ron

EDIT: -- 2/21 --- have flown a couple more times and things are still good --- did an FAA report today --- 100% OK
 
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I fly off of a private grass strip in northern Ohio. It's been swamp and I haven't flown since early Nov. Today the field was frozen and temp was 40F. I flew 1.5 hours in Class B for the first time with the new echo beta software. I saw about a dozen targets and all remained solid on my mini iPad running ForeFlight. So far, so good... :D
 
As mentioned in post above? I finally got to fly after installing beta software back in November. Targets and Wx looked solid. I requested a PAPR and got FAA reply that flight didn?t generate a report. I called Kurt at uAvionix and he suggested installing EchoUAT_v2.4.43-25W.uav which he sent to me. My echo keeps giving me an error message and won?t accept the new software. uAvionix is sending me a new transceiver at no cost. I?ll report progress soonest?
 
Does the Echo send GPS signal with the ADS-B IN signal to the ipad? I'm asking because the new WingX came out and it won't work on my current ipad mini (original version) so I'm considering buying a new ipad.

My current ipad mini has cellular but I want to buy the new one without cellular if I'm going to be using it exclusively in my airplane with the Echo.
 
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