Van's Air Force
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AOA in the RV-12
- Thread starter todehnal
- Start date
Dynon AOA
Recently, at the request of the current owner of an RV-12 that I built, I installed the necessary hardware as pioneered by Joe Gores to activate the AOA in the Dynon D180. After calibration by the owner, the AOA worked as prescribed.
Following the -12 success, I thought I would try a similar homebrewed adaptation in my RV-4 in which I have a Dynon D10A, also with the same AOA capability as the D180. I originally bent the AOA tube 30 degrees less than the pitot. Following a calibration flight, the AOA chevron on the Dynon showed the red and yellow and part of the green. The alarm activated as soon as I reduced power in the landing configuration. All AOA indications showed a stall prematurely. I next changed the angle of my AOA tube to 40 degrees down, after which a did a calibration flight again, with no better luck than the original 30 degree orientation. Both my pitot and my AOA are 1/4 inch tubing. I know in the -12, the 1/4 inch pitot is in the center of the spin and the leading edge orifice is 1/16th ID all the way to the D180. My thought is that the size of the line running from the AOA port to the D10A should not matter, but possibly it does. Can anyone enlighten me regarding this? The long and short of the matter is that I'm not coming up with any valuable AOA information in my -4 at this time.
Are then any other RVers out there that have had success with the Dynon AOA on the standard airfoil used on all other 2 place RVs?
Following is a link to photos of my installation:
https://plus.google.com/photos/1155...533897015330924047/albums/5884553107945464017
https://plus.google.com/photos/1155...533897015330924047/albums/5884553107945464017
Recently, at the request of the current owner of an RV-12 that I built, I installed the necessary hardware as pioneered by Joe Gores to activate the AOA in the Dynon D180. After calibration by the owner, the AOA worked as prescribed.
Following the -12 success, I thought I would try a similar homebrewed adaptation in my RV-4 in which I have a Dynon D10A, also with the same AOA capability as the D180. I originally bent the AOA tube 30 degrees less than the pitot. Following a calibration flight, the AOA chevron on the Dynon showed the red and yellow and part of the green. The alarm activated as soon as I reduced power in the landing configuration. All AOA indications showed a stall prematurely. I next changed the angle of my AOA tube to 40 degrees down, after which a did a calibration flight again, with no better luck than the original 30 degree orientation. Both my pitot and my AOA are 1/4 inch tubing. I know in the -12, the 1/4 inch pitot is in the center of the spin and the leading edge orifice is 1/16th ID all the way to the D180. My thought is that the size of the line running from the AOA port to the D10A should not matter, but possibly it does. Can anyone enlighten me regarding this? The long and short of the matter is that I'm not coming up with any valuable AOA information in my -4 at this time.
Are then any other RVers out there that have had success with the Dynon AOA on the standard airfoil used on all other 2 place RVs?
Following is a link to photos of my installation:
https://plus.google.com/photos/1155...533897015330924047/albums/5884553107945464017
https://plus.google.com/photos/1155...533897015330924047/albums/5884553107945464017
AOA
Thanks Mel. I had read numbers of 30 and 60, and both are right, depending on point of reference. I rebent my AOA to be 60 degrees less than the pitot and it appears that may work.
Techie terms like "delta" are great but straight talk in layman's terms leave less to the imagination.
Thanks Mel. I had read numbers of 30 and 60, and both are right, depending on point of reference. I rebent my AOA to be 60 degrees less than the pitot and it appears that may work.
Techie terms like "delta" are great but straight talk in layman's terms leave less to the imagination.
bhassel
Well Known Member
Do you have any pictures of the LP4-5 rivet installation? Does the tubing fit on the back of the rivet location ok?
Thanks,
Bob
This worked for me
Bill,
I?m building E-AB and using flush rivets that are in size, equivalent to LP4-3 rivets. In the link to the first photo below you can see how I attached the AOA tubing onto a rivet with the mandrel removed using a block of wood with a hole in it as a backstop during my initial testing. Basically, I used a 1/8? ID vinyl tubing sleeve slid over the shop head of the rivet which made a very snug fit. Next the tiny Tygon tubing was forced inside the 1/8? tubing making another tight fit.
As viewed in the second photo bellow, during final assembly, sensor safe blue Permatex silicone sealant was placed around the base of the rivet and the 1/8? tubing sleeve slid over the rivet to seat into the silicone. Then silicone was slathered over the outside of the 1/8? tube/rivet junction and the Tygon tube to 1/8? sleeve junction and let to dry for a couple of days before securing the tubing in final position. Hindsight being 20/20, should have placed some tape around the area because I made quite a mess while trying to insure a good solid seal around the rivet ? had a blob of silicone on my gloves I didn?t notice and ... well you can see the results.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bf0AsxsrklU/UUKMfxFUU2I/AAAAAAAAEJQ/xndtg_eTXMY/s1600/DSC03738.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_fDIzx1L1II/UUTjGmW6eEI/AAAAAAAAEJg/eqKPHX8Yw9Q/s1600/DSC03740.JPG
Bill,
I?m building E-AB and using flush rivets that are in size, equivalent to LP4-3 rivets. In the link to the first photo below you can see how I attached the AOA tubing onto a rivet with the mandrel removed using a block of wood with a hole in it as a backstop during my initial testing. Basically, I used a 1/8? ID vinyl tubing sleeve slid over the shop head of the rivet which made a very snug fit. Next the tiny Tygon tubing was forced inside the 1/8? tubing making another tight fit.
As viewed in the second photo bellow, during final assembly, sensor safe blue Permatex silicone sealant was placed around the base of the rivet and the 1/8? tubing sleeve slid over the rivet to seat into the silicone. Then silicone was slathered over the outside of the 1/8? tube/rivet junction and the Tygon tube to 1/8? sleeve junction and let to dry for a couple of days before securing the tubing in final position. Hindsight being 20/20, should have placed some tape around the area because I made quite a mess while trying to insure a good solid seal around the rivet ? had a blob of silicone on my gloves I didn?t notice and ... well you can see the results.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bf0AsxsrklU/UUKMfxFUU2I/AAAAAAAAEJQ/xndtg_eTXMY/s1600/DSC03738.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_fDIzx1L1II/UUTjGmW6eEI/AAAAAAAAEJg/eqKPHX8Yw9Q/s1600/DSC03740.JPG
Bob, I don't remember what size it was, but I just ordered the rivet that Van's calls out for the static port and used it instead of the inflator needle. I then drilled the skin according to Master Thinker Joe's instructions. I used Tygon tubing and had to heat the tubing with a hair dryer to expand it enough to slide over the rivet. I really like the look, it's not even noticable. It works great. BTW, I used the fittings referenced earlier in this thread from McMaster and Carr and they worked very well.
Don't like AOA!
Chatty Patty yelling STALL, STALL, was intolerable. Turned that OFF. The beeping on landing is almost as bad, my wifey got big eyes and said "WHAT'S THAT?" I find the beeping to be distracting and annoying rather than helpful. Landing is a phase of flight that I particularly enjoy. The beeping ruins it. now have that turned that OFF too. I don't feel the distraction helps in flying this light RV-12 at all. Maybe in a heavier airplane with less control feel I would appreciate all these warnings.
I have been well trained and can do short field landings just fine without AOA, thank you.
I have not given up on it completely, I think I can recalibrate it and improve its performance, but I doubt I will get to like it.
There, I've said it. Blasphemy, I know. I will slink off now and say my penance.
Tony
Chatty Patty yelling STALL, STALL, was intolerable. Turned that OFF. The beeping on landing is almost as bad, my wifey got big eyes and said "WHAT'S THAT?" I find the beeping to be distracting and annoying rather than helpful. Landing is a phase of flight that I particularly enjoy. The beeping ruins it. now have that turned that OFF too. I don't feel the distraction helps in flying this light RV-12 at all. Maybe in a heavier airplane with less control feel I would appreciate all these warnings.
I have been well trained and can do short field landings just fine without AOA, thank you.
I have not given up on it completely, I think I can recalibrate it and improve its performance, but I doubt I will get to like it.
There, I've said it. Blasphemy, I know. I will slink off now and say my penance.
Tony
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Here us a suggestion for Dynon: Have an option to disable the AOA audio alarm when the GPS position is directly over a runway. The pilot would still be warned of an impending stall while maneuvering near an airport. But it would be quiet during the landing flare without annoying the pilot and scaring the passenger.
Joe Gores
Joe Gores
Does the addition of this rivet have to wait until after the airworthiness certificate if I'm E-LSA? After all, the tubing will be inside the wing (unseen), and that wasn't there in the ASTM conforming prototype.
Jerre
Mel won't agree with me, but no DAR or FAA guy could find that rivet in a hundred years.
Actually, I installed my entire system and justified it by calling it "provisions for." So it wasn't an "actual installation." After I got my C of A, all that was required was activating it via the Skyview menu. Before that, it was "technically" not installed - or at least not available. The wings were on and the aft bulkhead installed, so the inspectors could see nothing - just like Sgt. Schultz.
In light of all the AOA stuff in the press, and the FAA's attempt to make installation on all airplanes as easy and no-permitting as possible, and the full availability of AOA in the SV ADAHRS and both the SV and D-180, it is very surprising that Vans has not incorporated this system into their Plans. It would be very simple.
I flew with Tony a week ago in N577RV and immediately noticed that the beeps in the D-180 were very different than the Skyview - they were very raucous, the SV's are quite gentle. His would be a pain, and I didn't even hear the lady yelling stall (he had that turned off.)
In all deference to San Antonio, my Mentor, his beeps started in the low 70s (kts) - I think he needs to do a recalibration - they were grossly out of range.
Altho the SV asks - or lets you - do the stall calibrations at various power and flap settings, I just did mine at Flaps 1, Idle power. That is my configuration in the deadly and much feared Base to Final turn that can result in that dastardly Stall-Spin. You can set the audio cutoff speed, Mich, so it won't beep during your landing flare.
The SV doesn't have Patty yelling STALL. It also, Tonio, doesn't have her yelling PULL UP, when you turn onto Base at Bremerton.............. What does "wifey" think of those????
Bob Bogash
N737G
Actually, I installed my entire system and justified it by calling it "provisions for." So it wasn't an "actual installation." After I got my C of A, all that was required was activating it via the Skyview menu. Before that, it was "technically" not installed - or at least not available. The wings were on and the aft bulkhead installed, so the inspectors could see nothing - just like Sgt. Schultz.
In light of all the AOA stuff in the press, and the FAA's attempt to make installation on all airplanes as easy and no-permitting as possible, and the full availability of AOA in the SV ADAHRS and both the SV and D-180, it is very surprising that Vans has not incorporated this system into their Plans. It would be very simple.
I flew with Tony a week ago in N577RV and immediately noticed that the beeps in the D-180 were very different than the Skyview - they were very raucous, the SV's are quite gentle. His would be a pain, and I didn't even hear the lady yelling stall (he had that turned off.)
In all deference to San Antonio, my Mentor, his beeps started in the low 70s (kts) - I think he needs to do a recalibration - they were grossly out of range.
Altho the SV asks - or lets you - do the stall calibrations at various power and flap settings, I just did mine at Flaps 1, Idle power. That is my configuration in the deadly and much feared Base to Final turn that can result in that dastardly Stall-Spin. You can set the audio cutoff speed, Mich, so it won't beep during your landing flare.
The SV doesn't have Patty yelling STALL. It also, Tonio, doesn't have her yelling PULL UP, when you turn onto Base at Bremerton.............. What does "wifey" think of those????
Bob Bogash
N737G
More on disliking it...
Sigh.......Scott, I feel your pain. Ol' Bob can be as prickly as an ol' porcupine sometimes.
I guess I need to explain further. For those that don't know runway 19 at Bremerton National, after the turn to base leg you are headed for a mountain that is 1000' higher than you are. The gal in the Garmin 496, not Dynon's Chatty Patty, is actually Garmin's B**** Betty, and when she sees you headed for contours higher than you are, she calls "TERRAIN AHEAD, PULL UP". Now, Wifey, even tho' not a pilot and has no idea where in the plane Betty is hiding, understands completely the situation because the windscreen is full of trees, and is happy someone is looking out for us. Wifey also sees the runway threshold on the left and knows we will shortly turn towards it. No problemo.
Betty also calls "FIVE HUNDRED", usually in the middle of base leg.
With regard to my AOA calibration, you are supposed to do stalls clean, with flaps one and flaps full, and the instrument calculates the slowest speed that you will encounter before stalling, I think. I did not do the full flaps stall because I thought I wanted earlier warning. Need to do the calibration over, I guess.
I have the beeps to start at the bottom of the yellow chevrons: Now abeam the numbers down to 80 knots, flaps one. Down to 70 knots, turn to base, the AOA gives a couple of beeps in the turn. Down to 60 knots on base and I can initiate AOA beeps by pulling slightly on the stick. Turn to final at 60 knots and the AOA starts medium beeps, middle of the yellow chevrons as soon as the wings are not level. Wings level down to 55 knots, constant medium beeps. At flare and touchdown constant insistent beeps. I think my AOA is a bit out of calibration but not grossly so.
I don't mind that the AOA gives beeps in the 70 knot and 60 knot turns. It is warning me, you have initiated a turn at low airspeed. But I don't like the constant insistent beeps on level final, flare and touchdown.
I will redo the calibration procedure, but as said before, I don't think I will be happy with AOA in the 12. Maybe Van's had good reasons not to implement it in the build.
Now if Bogey will stop flying 737G long enough, maybe I can get a ride and see how SV works
Tony
Sigh.......Scott, I feel your pain. Ol' Bob can be as prickly as an ol' porcupine sometimes.
I guess I need to explain further. For those that don't know runway 19 at Bremerton National, after the turn to base leg you are headed for a mountain that is 1000' higher than you are. The gal in the Garmin 496, not Dynon's Chatty Patty, is actually Garmin's B**** Betty, and when she sees you headed for contours higher than you are, she calls "TERRAIN AHEAD, PULL UP". Now, Wifey, even tho' not a pilot and has no idea where in the plane Betty is hiding, understands completely the situation because the windscreen is full of trees, and is happy someone is looking out for us. Wifey also sees the runway threshold on the left and knows we will shortly turn towards it. No problemo.
Betty also calls "FIVE HUNDRED", usually in the middle of base leg.
With regard to my AOA calibration, you are supposed to do stalls clean, with flaps one and flaps full, and the instrument calculates the slowest speed that you will encounter before stalling, I think. I did not do the full flaps stall because I thought I wanted earlier warning. Need to do the calibration over, I guess.
I have the beeps to start at the bottom of the yellow chevrons: Now abeam the numbers down to 80 knots, flaps one. Down to 70 knots, turn to base, the AOA gives a couple of beeps in the turn. Down to 60 knots on base and I can initiate AOA beeps by pulling slightly on the stick. Turn to final at 60 knots and the AOA starts medium beeps, middle of the yellow chevrons as soon as the wings are not level. Wings level down to 55 knots, constant medium beeps. At flare and touchdown constant insistent beeps. I think my AOA is a bit out of calibration but not grossly so.
I don't mind that the AOA gives beeps in the 70 knot and 60 knot turns. It is warning me, you have initiated a turn at low airspeed. But I don't like the constant insistent beeps on level final, flare and touchdown.
I will redo the calibration procedure, but as said before, I don't think I will be happy with AOA in the 12. Maybe Van's had good reasons not to implement it in the build.
Now if Bogey will stop flying 737G long enough, maybe I can get a ride and see how SV works
Tony
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Geez, you really know how to hurt a guy! Well, even Saints are not perfect.
The low 70s represent 1.6 to 1.7 or even higher Vstall - pretty high. Vref is supposed to be 1.3 Vstall - just ask those 777 guys in SFO who were trying for 137 kts, but wound up at 103.
For the RV-12 - that works out to 58 kts - and that's with Flaps UP -- AND max gross weight. Flying solo and with Flaps 2, that could be 10 kts slower.
Maybe a ride tomorrow, San Antonio??? If it ever clears up at PWT, that is - it's 1335 local right now and it's still not VFR.
Bob B.
N737G
The low 70s represent 1.6 to 1.7 or even higher Vstall - pretty high. Vref is supposed to be 1.3 Vstall - just ask those 777 guys in SFO who were trying for 137 kts, but wound up at 103.
For the RV-12 - that works out to 58 kts - and that's with Flaps UP -- AND max gross weight. Flying solo and with Flaps 2, that could be 10 kts slower.
Maybe a ride tomorrow, San Antonio??? If it ever clears up at PWT, that is - it's 1335 local right now and it's still not VFR.
Bob B.
N737G
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
I've flown a couple of turbine aircraft with AOA, but I never thought it was justified in light GA aircraft. Can somebody tell me what the value added is to justify the cost in an RV12? I'm not being snarky, I'm wondering if I'm missing something.
Bill_H
Well Known Member
Justify the cost? The materials cost is $12.00 and about an hour to install if you are still building the plane. Maybe 2 hours if it is built and the bulkhead cover is off.
It is the audible nature of the AOA in the Dynon that is so good. A slow beeping that increases in frequency right up to being very fast right before the stall. Don't even need to lok at the indicator. I am working out of a 1260 foot strip, love the AOA!
It is the audible nature of the AOA in the Dynon that is so good. A slow beeping that increases in frequency right up to being very fast right before the stall. Don't even need to lok at the indicator. I am working out of a 1260 foot strip, love the AOA!
What cost? A few dollars of tubing and fittings - most all of which I had already on hand. The Dynon's are all plumbed for it with the electronics all built in including the display and audio.
Light GA aircraft? Reminds of Chuck Yeager or some other famous aviator's comments about the J-3: "Why it's so slow, it can barely kill you."
Bob Bogash
N737G
Light GA aircraft? Reminds of Chuck Yeager or some other famous aviator's comments about the J-3: "Why it's so slow, it can barely kill you."
Bob Bogash
N737G
AOA Materials Assistance
Some help appreciated. As Keith Boardman noted (quoted below), McMaster will not ship to UK.
"Hi Guys,
Thanks to Bill for posting the bill of materials for the AOA hardware. I ordered this stuff from McMaster but they won't accept my order because I'm in the UK. Any good samariton willing to order this stuff and subsequently mail it to me? Obviously happy to cover your costs...
PM [email protected]
Cheers...Keith Boardman
All of these are the part numbers from mcmaster.com:
1 each 5047K12 Moisture-Resistant Acetal Sngl-Barb Fitting Adapter for 1/16" Tube ID X 1/8" NPT Male Pipe $1.10 each
This is the fitting that adapts from the tube to the 1/8 NPT female fitting on the Skyview ADHRS. It was available in a single quantity. In Joe's original post, he made this by melting another inflation needle into a plug.
1 pack 51525K211 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Female X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 $3.41 per pack
1 pack 51525K121 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Male X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 today $3.83 per pack
This is the disconnect fitting that I will use at the wing root. It was not available in a single quantity so I will have 9 left over...
I'll pull the wing out a few inches, then disconnect the fitting.
25 ft. 5006K51 Abrasion-Resistant Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall Thickness, $0.15 per foot.
Total of all from mcmaster.com $12.00 plus shipping"
Keith has kindly given me a couple of his spare 51525K211/51525K121 couplings so I'm just short of:
2 No. 5047K12 Single Barb Fitting Adaptor (I like to have a spare!) $1.10 each.
25 ft. 5006K61 Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall thickness, $0.16/ft. (Note - McMaster site states 5006K51 no longer available and advises use of the K61.
Total cost $6.20. As Keith before, happy to cover all costs including postage (and a couple of beers) to anyone who can get these and forward to me.
Email: nilved(@ sign)globalnet.co.uk
Thanks,
Jim D
Some help appreciated. As Keith Boardman noted (quoted below), McMaster will not ship to UK.
"Hi Guys,
Thanks to Bill for posting the bill of materials for the AOA hardware. I ordered this stuff from McMaster but they won't accept my order because I'm in the UK. Any good samariton willing to order this stuff and subsequently mail it to me? Obviously happy to cover your costs...
PM [email protected]
Cheers...Keith Boardman
All of these are the part numbers from mcmaster.com:
1 each 5047K12 Moisture-Resistant Acetal Sngl-Barb Fitting Adapter for 1/16" Tube ID X 1/8" NPT Male Pipe $1.10 each
This is the fitting that adapts from the tube to the 1/8 NPT female fitting on the Skyview ADHRS. It was available in a single quantity. In Joe's original post, he made this by melting another inflation needle into a plug.
1 pack 51525K211 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Female X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 $3.41 per pack
1 pack 51525K121 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Male X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 today $3.83 per pack
This is the disconnect fitting that I will use at the wing root. It was not available in a single quantity so I will have 9 left over...
I'll pull the wing out a few inches, then disconnect the fitting.
25 ft. 5006K51 Abrasion-Resistant Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall Thickness, $0.15 per foot.
Total of all from mcmaster.com $12.00 plus shipping"
Keith has kindly given me a couple of his spare 51525K211/51525K121 couplings so I'm just short of:
2 No. 5047K12 Single Barb Fitting Adaptor (I like to have a spare!) $1.10 each.
25 ft. 5006K61 Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall thickness, $0.16/ft. (Note - McMaster site states 5006K51 no longer available and advises use of the K61.
Total cost $6.20. As Keith before, happy to cover all costs including postage (and a couple of beers) to anyone who can get these and forward to me.
Email: nilved(@ sign)globalnet.co.uk
Thanks,
Jim D
Gagarin737
Well Known Member
You can also order the tubing from Van's.
I used PT 1/4 OD 20 feet (Van's sells it in 10 ft lengths, try to get it in one piece). I further used an extra Nylon fitting F N4MC-2 male for the ADAHRS and a 90 degree nylon fitting at the wing connection (fittings were a leftover from the kit). Made an aluminum nut for the elbow fitting.
The tubing fits over a completely pulled rivet (will look up the size when home) in the wing, no smaller tubing needed. Sealed with proseal.
The small youtube movie is to illustrate the sound from the Skyview. I was going a bit too fast and had still reserve at the touch ->AOA Skyview
I think it is very useful especially in the turn to final.
So the only thing you need to order is the tubing and a bigger rivet (found it in a marine store).
I used PT 1/4 OD 20 feet (Van's sells it in 10 ft lengths, try to get it in one piece). I further used an extra Nylon fitting F N4MC-2 male for the ADAHRS and a 90 degree nylon fitting at the wing connection (fittings were a leftover from the kit). Made an aluminum nut for the elbow fitting.
The tubing fits over a completely pulled rivet (will look up the size when home) in the wing, no smaller tubing needed. Sealed with proseal.
The small youtube movie is to illustrate the sound from the Skyview. I was going a bit too fast and had still reserve at the touch ->AOA Skyview
I think it is very useful especially in the turn to final.
So the only thing you need to order is the tubing and a bigger rivet (found it in a marine store).
Last edited:
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
I'm not knocking the AOA, guys. I just don't see the need in day VFR flying.
N402RH
Well Known Member
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2013/09/inadvertent-spin-kills-1/
from today's GANews
There are many more examples in the accident reports.
What speed does an RV-12 stall in normal flight?
What speed does an RV-12 stall at in a level 65 deg bank?
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
from today's GANews
There are many more examples in the accident reports.
What speed does an RV-12 stall in normal flight?
What speed does an RV-12 stall at in a level 65 deg bank?
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
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RFSchaller
Well Known Member
If it saves one pilot from an accident it's worthwhile.
Bill_H
Well Known Member
We all like having an airspeed indicator. Well, on a short field approach the AOA is more useful than the airspeed indicator. Especially as audibly implemented in the Dynon.
Would you voluntarily cover your airspeed indicator for short field approaches? No? Even if I paid you $12? Just another way to think about it.
It also responds immediately to gusts and thermals on a slow final in a way the airspeed indicator does not seem to do. Better situation awareness.
Would you voluntarily cover your airspeed indicator for short field approaches? No? Even if I paid you $12? Just another way to think about it.
It also responds immediately to gusts and thermals on a slow final in a way the airspeed indicator does not seem to do. Better situation awareness.
There's Alway One ----
Absolute gentleman!! A public thanks to Mitch Garner for assisting in my previous post below. Mitch, thanks again and if you are ever back in UK the offer of staying with us and a few beers remains. Jim D.
"Some help appreciated. As Keith Boardman noted (quoted below), McMaster will not ship to UK.
"Hi Guys,
Thanks to Bill for posting the bill of materials for the AOA hardware. I ordered this stuff from McMaster but they won't accept my order because I'm in the UK. Any good samariton willing to order this stuff and subsequently mail it to me? Obviously happy to cover your costs...
PM [email protected]
Cheers...Keith Boardman
All of these are the part numbers from mcmaster.com:
1 each 5047K12 Moisture-Resistant Acetal Sngl-Barb Fitting Adapter for 1/16" Tube ID X 1/8" NPT Male Pipe $1.10 each
This is the fitting that adapts from the tube to the 1/8 NPT female fitting on the Skyview ADHRS. It was available in a single quantity. In Joe's original post, he made this by melting another inflation needle into a plug.
1 pack 51525K211 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Female X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 $3.41 per pack
1 pack 51525K121 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Male X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 today $3.83 per pack
This is the disconnect fitting that I will use at the wing root. It was not available in a single quantity so I will have 9 left over...
I'll pull the wing out a few inches, then disconnect the fitting.
25 ft. 5006K51 Abrasion-Resistant Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall Thickness, $0.15 per foot.
Total of all from mcmaster.com $12.00 plus shipping"
Keith has kindly given me a couple of his spare 51525K211/51525K121 couplings so I'm just short of:
2 No. 5047K12 Single Barb Fitting Adaptor (I like to have a spare!) $1.10 each.
25 ft. 5006K61 Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall thickness, $0.16/ft. (Note - McMaster site states 5006K51 no longer available and advises use of the K61.
Total cost $6.20. As Keith before, happy to cover all costs including postage (and a couple of beers) to anyone who can get these and forward to me.
Email: nilved(@ sign)globalnet.co.uk
Thanks,
Jim D
Absolute gentleman!! A public thanks to Mitch Garner for assisting in my previous post below. Mitch, thanks again and if you are ever back in UK the offer of staying with us and a few beers remains. Jim D.
"Some help appreciated. As Keith Boardman noted (quoted below), McMaster will not ship to UK.
"Hi Guys,
Thanks to Bill for posting the bill of materials for the AOA hardware. I ordered this stuff from McMaster but they won't accept my order because I'm in the UK. Any good samariton willing to order this stuff and subsequently mail it to me? Obviously happy to cover your costs...
PM [email protected]
Cheers...Keith Boardman
All of these are the part numbers from mcmaster.com:
1 each 5047K12 Moisture-Resistant Acetal Sngl-Barb Fitting Adapter for 1/16" Tube ID X 1/8" NPT Male Pipe $1.10 each
This is the fitting that adapts from the tube to the 1/8 NPT female fitting on the Skyview ADHRS. It was available in a single quantity. In Joe's original post, he made this by melting another inflation needle into a plug.
1 pack 51525K211 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Female X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 $3.41 per pack
1 pack 51525K121 Plastic Quick-Turn (Luer Lock) Coupling Nylon, Male X Barb, for 1/16" Tube ID, packs of 10 today $3.83 per pack
This is the disconnect fitting that I will use at the wing root. It was not available in a single quantity so I will have 9 left over...
I'll pull the wing out a few inches, then disconnect the fitting.
25 ft. 5006K51 Abrasion-Resistant Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall Thickness, $0.15 per foot.
Total of all from mcmaster.com $12.00 plus shipping"
Keith has kindly given me a couple of his spare 51525K211/51525K121 couplings so I'm just short of:
2 No. 5047K12 Single Barb Fitting Adaptor (I like to have a spare!) $1.10 each.
25 ft. 5006K61 Clear PVC Tubing 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD, 1/32" Wall thickness, $0.16/ft. (Note - McMaster site states 5006K51 no longer available and advises use of the K61.
Total cost $6.20. As Keith before, happy to cover all costs including postage (and a couple of beers) to anyone who can get these and forward to me.
Email: nilved(@ sign)globalnet.co.uk
Thanks,
Jim D
bhassel
Well Known Member
I've been giving some thought to the AOA installation. I want to stay ELSA so its critical that I abide by that standard.
I'm getting ready to skin the wings. I was hoping I could see a solution that would allow an easy installation after the pink slip. I am thinking it would be easier to see what I'll need to do before I skin so I'll have an idea of what I need to do later.
I'm not sure I could run the plastic tube anywhere but through the normal flanged rib holes. Even with the thinner tubing it looks like running it through the snap bushings after the pink slip would be neigh on impossible.
Has anyone done this with the new wing connectors (probably a part 2 question) and did you run the tubing through the flanged rib holes? Is there a concern with the tubing being cut or worn thru over time?
Thanks,
Bob
I'm getting ready to skin the wings. I was hoping I could see a solution that would allow an easy installation after the pink slip. I am thinking it would be easier to see what I'll need to do before I skin so I'll have an idea of what I need to do later.
I'm not sure I could run the plastic tube anywhere but through the normal flanged rib holes. Even with the thinner tubing it looks like running it through the snap bushings after the pink slip would be neigh on impossible.
Has anyone done this with the new wing connectors (probably a part 2 question) and did you run the tubing through the flanged rib holes? Is there a concern with the tubing being cut or worn thru over time?
Thanks,
Bob
I ran it most of the way in the gap between the sheeting and the front of the ribs, and then out through the fork in the forward spar and the holes in the inboard ribs. Not saying it's the best way, just another possible route. However, you need to make sure it's tie wrapped well clear of the stall warner vane. I'll probably put a couple of small snap bushings in the inboard ribs rather than take it through the lightening holes when I finally connect it all up.
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Bill_H
Well Known Member
David Hill - see post #44, but read entire thread. A rivet rather than the inflation needle was a later idea. But I like my inflation needle base sticking out because I use a tire inflator cap on it, holding a streamer that says "Helium port." Bob H, the thin tubing works great. Before ELSA signoff, I installed it all the way back and into the ADAHRs. The other end was taped in the compartment accessible through the stall switch access plate. At that point it is just a piece of tubing in the plane serving no purpose, like a pull string. Weight almost nothing, but included in the empty weight and CG of the plane because it was there when I put it on the scales. After signoff I drilled the hole in the wing leading edge and epoxyed in the inflation needle (obviously would do a rivet if doing it now.) No issues. Quick easy job. Then you tell the Skyview it exists and inflight-calibrate.
Bill_H
Well Known Member
Since mine was a retrofit, I just use the lightening holes for the AOA tubing. The tubing is under no load and is abrasion resistant. Should last for years and it is easy to fish with a long stiff wire, fishing pole, etc., if replacement is needed. Also you could replace the first few snap bushings (out to where the stall switch is) with the next size up for more room and initially run it there. They sell snap bushings at Home Depot.
bhassel
Well Known Member
PilotBrent
Well Known Member
Learning to use AOA
I installed the "$10" AOA using the excellent instructions from Joe Gores a while ago but hadn't spent any time getting to learn how to use it properly. Over the holidays I did a couple of stalls one afternoon and just recently charted some of the data generated from the Skyview files in Excel.
Chart images might not be too clear, but it is just amazing how much you can learn by sifting through the Skyview data. These stalls were done at 6,800 ft or so (5,900 density alt) and not at gross weight. The AOA data in the Skyview log showed that my actual stall vane was activated when the AOA was indicating just under 80%. Airspeed indicated 44 kts (48 kts TAS). You don't see that AOA% number in flight, just hear the beeps and see the colored bar on the screen. (probably should not be fixated on the screen during a stall of course). I lost 130 feet in the first and 122 in the second from the break and my attempted recovery. You can even see in the data exactly how long it was taking me to arrest the altitude loss after pushing in the throttle. In this case it was 10 sec in the first and 6 sec in the second one.
I've adjusted the Skyview audio warning to a lower sensitivity setting as the AOA was beeping long before I was getting down to 60 knots on landings. I have it at a place now that is not too distracting on final, but comforting to know that I'm being watched over. Was also sampling the data at 4/s in the log file but I'll likely increase that frequency next time I go up and record a few more stalls. Curious about what the AOA is reading when the break actually occurs although on final I'm strictly going by the beeps. Not rocket science but another great tool to improve flying skills. This has to be the #1 mod to install on an E-LSA 12.
I installed the "$10" AOA using the excellent instructions from Joe Gores a while ago but hadn't spent any time getting to learn how to use it properly. Over the holidays I did a couple of stalls one afternoon and just recently charted some of the data generated from the Skyview files in Excel.
Chart images might not be too clear, but it is just amazing how much you can learn by sifting through the Skyview data. These stalls were done at 6,800 ft or so (5,900 density alt) and not at gross weight. The AOA data in the Skyview log showed that my actual stall vane was activated when the AOA was indicating just under 80%. Airspeed indicated 44 kts (48 kts TAS). You don't see that AOA% number in flight, just hear the beeps and see the colored bar on the screen. (probably should not be fixated on the screen during a stall of course). I lost 130 feet in the first and 122 in the second from the break and my attempted recovery. You can even see in the data exactly how long it was taking me to arrest the altitude loss after pushing in the throttle. In this case it was 10 sec in the first and 6 sec in the second one.
I've adjusted the Skyview audio warning to a lower sensitivity setting as the AOA was beeping long before I was getting down to 60 knots on landings. I have it at a place now that is not too distracting on final, but comforting to know that I'm being watched over. Was also sampling the data at 4/s in the log file but I'll likely increase that frequency next time I go up and record a few more stalls. Curious about what the AOA is reading when the break actually occurs although on final I'm strictly going by the beeps. Not rocket science but another great tool to improve flying skills. This has to be the #1 mod to install on an E-LSA 12.
AOA photos
I just finished my 12 ELSA and am considering installing the AOA. Can some one post or show me a link to a series of photos of all of the steps including the in / on wing installation?
I just finished my 12 ELSA and am considering installing the AOA. Can some one post or show me a link to a series of photos of all of the steps including the in / on wing installation?
tomkk
Well Known Member
I'm doing the same thing. Here's the thread I started with. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34040&highlight=homemade+aoa
Bill_H
Well Known Member
Ben Barron, this is the thread, start back on page 2. Eventually you'll get to the McMaster-Carr parts list. Leave a little slack at the wing root for the quick disconnect, it comes out through the panel with the wing electrical connectors. You can just lay that 1/8 tubing in the lightening holes if you wing is Already built, fish it through to the stall switch cover plate area with a stick.
thanks Bill
I installed the AOA tubing and calibrated it this morning. Almost everything works great: the visual indicator showed up, the calibration went smoothly, and I nailed the first landing. The only problem is that I'm not getting the audible alerts.
I set the relative volume to 100% and I set the trigger level to "middle of the yellow" but even when it gets into the red, I don't hear anything. Other Dynon audible alerts are loud and clear.
Am I missing a setting somewhere? Anyone else have this problem?
I set the relative volume to 100% and I set the trigger level to "middle of the yellow" but even when it gets into the red, I don't hear anything. Other Dynon audible alerts are loud and clear.
Am I missing a setting somewhere? Anyone else have this problem?
Paris12Man
Well Known Member
Which one?
Ken, do you have the D180 or the Skyview?
The D180 does mention the Alarm Setup....page 9-31 of the D180 Installation Guide. It shows five audio positions,
Always off,
On in Red,
Start Ylw Top,
Start Ylw Mid,
Start Ylw Btm.
You get to the setup screen by EFIS>Setup>AOAALM
If you have Skyview, it must be something of the same.
Steve
Ken, do you have the D180 or the Skyview?
The D180 does mention the Alarm Setup....page 9-31 of the D180 Installation Guide. It shows five audio positions,
Always off,
On in Red,
Start Ylw Top,
Start Ylw Mid,
Start Ylw Btm.
You get to the setup screen by EFIS>Setup>AOAALM
If you have Skyview, it must be something of the same.
Steve
Bill_H
Well Known Member
Ken, I hear the AOA great but not the other dynon alerts. Also my flightcom 103 isolates ME, not the passenger! Your serial number indicates you may be one of us that had to deal with the skyview conversion harnesses? There are issues like this that many of us are experiencing and we haven't figured out yet.
Also, it could be the setting of one of those potentiometers on the AV5000
Serial#412, first to complete with ELSA Skyview, April 2012
Also, it could be the setting of one of those potentiometers on the AV5000
Serial#412, first to complete with ELSA Skyview, April 2012
tomkk
Well Known Member
Ken, did you ever resolve this. I'm having exactly the same problem - everything working great except no AOA audio. Can hear all other warnings OK. I'm getting a visual "SPD" warning at the top of the PFD OK. AOA audio set to begin at bottom of yellow, AOA vol 100%, inhibit AOA below 20 kts.
