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Where does Vans post the Vne, etc.

Flying again!

Flying again!

Well Known Member
Hi,

I just bought an RV-10 and the precious owner was using a plagiarized RV-10 POH. In this POH, the Vne is listed as 200 KIAS, flap extension as 95 KIAS KIAS for 1/2, 87 KIAS for full.

I went to the Vans web site and could not see any speeds listed other than in the performance section but that did not show Va, Vne etc.

I just want to see what these numbers are from the designer, not 2nd or third hand on the web or another persons POH.

Thanks.....
 
Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work.

I have acquired a poh from a good friend to save many hours of work. All of these numbers and much more are found in "Final insp and test flight" section that I recieved with the finish kit.

I will not use w&b info, wiring diagrams or equipment list. I will make changes where necessary to match my plane. So, for me it is just to assist me in making my own. I would say many of us -10 builders have done the same.

Some other numbers:
121 kts max @ 3 deg flap deflection or trail.
125 kts maneuvering speed.
 
KIAS vs KTAS

You probably know this already but did you know KIAS and KTAS is completely different at altitude?

ie 160 KIAS is actually a KTAS of about 230Kt up high.

Thats the only place I really go near Vne for any reasonable period of time.
When I am cruising along on Oxy getting somewhere.

In other words if you are just looking at indicated speeds at FL180 your probably above Vne True and compromised your flutter margin.

That sort of situation is bad for your health
 
I understand for only Vne we need to look at TAS. I am not flying yet but I did not think the -10 with IO-540-D4A5 in level flight at 18,000' could bust Vne. I est about 136 KIAS. Thanks for the reminder though. All other V speeds we look at KIAS.
 
Vne is always an indicated airspeed - KIAS.

"Limit" speeds are determined by the stress on the airframe or airframe components, which in turn is the amount of force exerted by the airflow. This is a function of the indicated airspeed, not the "true" airspeed. Think of how an airspeed indicator actually works: it is measuring the air pressure exerted in a tube, ie, it is effectively measuring the force on your plane, no matter what the altitude and temperature is.

The TAS is just the speed across the ground in nil wind, and is only limited by your Vne and/or the maximum power of the engine (whichever limit is reached first). In other words, you can cruise at whatever TAS you can achieve, while remaining within all the other limits. Cruise TAS may be given by the manufacturer as an indication of what you can get under certain conditions, but it's not a "limit" as such.
 
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My apologies. Flutter (indeed a function of TAS) restrictions are essentially "designed out" of certified planes so if you stay below Vne there is not a problem. This makes eminent sense when you consider what instruments you generally have in the cockpit to help you stay within design limits.

Weird that the RV10 bucks this generally accepted design goal. Very interesting thread too. :eek:
 
yup, intellectual property obsessions sometimes overshadow common sense. So, why not post this little table if nobody objects? Airspeed markings in approximate knots, apologies to vans and any ip lawyers, no warranty, void where prohibited etc. etc,:

ASI markings, knots

Code: 
RV model       4     6     7     8     9    10

bottom of     47    48    50    50    43    52
white arc
top           87    87    87    87    78    87

green start   50    51    56    56    49    61

blue line    116   116   123   123   103   125

bottom of    156   156   168   168   156   156
yellow arc
top, redline 182   182   200   200   182   200
 
An answer to your question....

Flying again! said:
Hi,

I just bought an RV-10 and the precious owner was using a plagiarized RV-10 POH. In this POH, the Vne is listed as 200 KIAS, flap extension as 95 KIAS KIAS for 1/2, 87 KIAS for full.

I went to the Vans web site and could not see any speeds listed other than in the performance section but that did not show Va, Vne etc.

I just want to see what these numbers are from the designer, not 2nd or third hand on the web or another persons POH.

Thanks.....
Click to expand...

The designer provides all of the pertinent information in the construction manual and documentation that comes with every RV kit.

There is also a chart on the web site HERE

It may be too late for you at this point, but it is highly recommended that when anyone buys an already flying RV, that they make sure they get the construction manual, drawings, and other documentation that was used during construction.
Not only does it have the info. you are currently seeking, but it is what you would use in the future as a parts manual, and reference for doing maint. or any possible repairs that might be needed.
 
Replacement plan documents

I had occasion to call Vans today to place an order.

I learned this about replacement plans. Each serial number can order a full set of full-size replacement plans ONCE for $100. Another subsequent order cost more, though I don't remember the quote. Note: what you get is a set of current plans for your model, not for your serial number. So, so any changes over time affecting one or more particular pages of YOUR drawings will not be reflected in the $100 new plans set. You would need to do a quick page by page version check to see if any were changed.

Apparently, they can reproduce your serial number specific plans (full set or specific pages), but that is not part of the $100 deal. So, if your plans are torn up or whatever at the time you finish your build, you might be wise to order the $100 set at that time before design changes set in, and just store them away.

The preview plan sets are also available, I think she said for $55 anytime and as many as you want. No one time discount there.

In case you were wondering.
 
Perhaps not for general publication but ...

rvbuilder2002 said:
The designer provides all of the pertinent information in the construction manual and documentation that comes with every RV kit.

There is also a chart on the web site HERE

It may be too late for you at this point, but it is highly recommended that when anyone buys an already flying RV, that they make sure they get the construction manual, drawings, and other documentation that was used during construction.
Not only does it have the info. you are currently seeking, but it is what you would use in the future as a parts manual, and reference for doing maint. or any possible repairs that might be needed.
Click to expand...

Since you brought the RV-6 data into this thread, I would be very interested to know how the top of the yellow arcs were determined and if exactly the same method was used for all models what is the element that caused the RV-6 to be limited to 210 mph (the same as the RV-4 and RV-9) while the RV-7 value is 230 mph (the same as the RV-8 and RV-10). Since all of the airplanes are different it is impossible for critical analysis to predict the same precise structural limiting speed for multiple models. Bob Mills flies a RV-6 modified as a Super with the big 6 cylinder Lycoming and his race speeds including turns are:

Race Record (RR)# Race Date Class Aircraft Type Pilot Speed Kts Speed MPH
1073 Thunderbird 150 10/8/11 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 220.79 254.08
1139 Rocket 100, 2011 11/19/11 Sport FX Rocket Six Mills, Bob 219.12 252.16
773 Rocket 100, 2010 11/20/10 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 216.41 249.04
962 Big Sky Air Race 7/9/11 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 213.07 245.20
807 Taylor 150, 2011 4/2/11 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 212.55 244.60
626 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 212.53 244.57
661 Great Canadian Air Rally 2010 8/22/10 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 211.56 243.46
690 Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 210.50 242.08
557 Great NW Air Race 6/13/10 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 208.57 240.02
481 Rocket 100 2009 11/22/09 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 208.54 239.98
494 Taylor 150 4/11/10 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 206.07 237.14
428 Pagosa Springs 100 2009 9/27/09 Sport FX RV Super-6 Mills, Bob 203.88 234.46

Twice I have flown a two way speed trap run in competition and I have the certificates for 220.017 mph and 226.74 mph just as a matter of record (not saying it is safe) in our RV-6A.

Since I like to go fast and race it is not likely that I will stop modifying the airplane in the immediate future. I would like to know if there is a weak element in the RV-6. I know there is a safety margin used in setting the red line on the airspeed indicator but given the same two numbers assigned to quite different aircraft across the RV line there seems to be some arbitrary limit setting in the process.

Bob Axsom
 
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