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RV-7A Noseover Incident

JackW

Active Member
Folks,

My fire brigade got called out to an aircraft incident this Monday. Turned out to be an RV7A nosed over at Penfield airstrip north-west of Melbourne, Australia. The incident occurred during taxi on the main strip which is grass and a bit bumpy too. Airfield operator reckons it was a flat tyre, but looking at the pic at this link, it looks like a bend nose leg. I don't know the owner/pilot details so won't speculate.

http://sunbury-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/plane-crash-lands-at-sunbury-airfield/
 
Nose Gear Issues

I just finished my plane back in January. The inspection was the 17th. With many fellow builders looking over the bird before first flight we found a HUGE issue with the nose wheel gear.... using a digital level, after many stated...
"Your nose wheel gear leg and tire is not 90 degrees to the airplane leveled".

Sure enough, after leveling the plane again, the nose wheel at the fork was 2 degrees out putting a SEVERE side load on the wheel and tire towards the pilot side. I would not fly this plane with this issue.

I called Van's and explained the situation, sent pictures and emails (No emails were ever responded to) to discuss this issue. Van's, with the help of Gus and Scott stood up and we found the issue. My engine mount was drilled 2 degrees off. The gear leg was on spot. Sooo... we had a new gear leg drilled 2 degrees off and it solved the issue.

This issue was nothing to play with!!! The side load on the nose wheel was Serious.

Please check your nose wheel and fork for a 90-degree angle WITH the plane in level flight attitude.

JMHO...
 
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Good to hear the pilot was OK.

I believe it is an 8A not a 7A. Not trying to split hairs here, but that is the first I have heard of.

Hopefully he can rebuild it reasonably easy.
 
7A or 8A

Some reports said 8A, but I think they were upgrading. In the flesh, it looked like a 7 to me.
 
ebbe0f99a6a2f3f972ff07d.jpg


THIS SURE IS A 7A....................
 
Definitely a 7A. And another RV pilot who inspected the wreckage reports that he believes it had the new nose gear. If so this is possibly the first RV with the new gear to have a nose gear collapse. Not good news for the RV nose gear fraternity....not good news at all !!!
 
Did anyone else notice that the airplane flipped during taxi? To my knowledge that's the first time that has happened.

I hate to speculate, but flipping the plane during taxi operations seems very odd, if you know what I mean.
 
Certainly there were others that collapsed during taxi!

Jamie,

I think I remember posts here about at least one more "A" that flipped during taxi, or was that only a collapse, but not a nose-over?

Since reading the first reports about A's flipping over, quite a while ago, I have been thinking about possible solutions to make the nosegear more reliable, or should I say "more forgiving"? (before the "good-better-best" pilots will blame it all on pilot technique, again). No matter how good your technique is, you may always have a bad day, or not be able to see a soft spot/hole in the grass that your are landing/taxiing on.

I am glad that the pilot is OK, but it is terrible to see such a nice plane in this state. I hope this will result in some positive discussions to try to make our "A's" safer and hopefully some directions from Vans as to where to look for the problem.

Regards, Tonny.
 
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Did anyone else notice that the airplane flipped during taxi? To my knowledge that's the first time that has happened.

I hate to speculate, but flipping the plane during taxi operations seems very odd, if you know what I mean.

Jamie,

I believe there was one (A) model that the nose gear fell into a big hole and flipped the plane over, I also think taxi speed was in the equation.
 
I think I remeber posts here about at least one more "A" that flipped during taxi, or was that only a collapse, but not a nose-over?

There were two incidents that I am aware of that happened during taxi on grass. In both of those incidents the airplane did not flip.
 
The way the article read it sounded like he had a hard landing and the front tire busted. But we all know how acurate news reports are at times.
 
RV7A noseover

I had a look at this RV. The plane was fitted with the new fork and there is no indication that the nose gear bent at the fork swivel point, the fork is still in-line with the nose gear which is unusual for a rollover caused by a fork digging in. There are rumors that the landing was at a higher than normal speed and hard braking was used, a prop strike was also mentioned by a witness and may have added to the weight already on the nose gear by the braking. The strip is also a bit rough in places and it is believed that he may have set down in the worst part of the strip.
The plane has sustained substantial damage but could be rebuilt.
The great news is the pilot walked away with no real injury. Not happy but alive which is always a good outcome.
Any landing you walk away from is a good one... Right???

[IMG]http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...?authkey=Gv1sRgCIKW-cn8kNClEQ&feat=directlink[/IMG]
 
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Consider the source

Did anyone else notice that the airplane flipped during taxi? To my knowledge that's the first time that has happened.

I hate to speculate, but flipping the plane during taxi operations seems very odd, if you know what I mean.

There may be a semantics issue here. The news report says:

"The plane flipped on to its roof while ?on taxi? on the airfield?s longer runway".

I have seen the term "taxi" used by non-pilot reporters to describe any operation where some of the wheels were on the ground. Like "taxiing for takeoff" used to describe the takeoff roll. In this case "on taxi" could well mean landing rollout.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
There may be a semantics issue here. The news report says:

"The plane flipped on to its roof while ?on taxi? on the airfield?s longer runway".

I have seen the term "taxi" used by non-pilot reporters to describe any operation where some of the wheels were on the ground. Like "taxiing for takeoff" used to describe the takeoff roll. In this case "on taxi" could well mean landing rollout.

Yeah John, that's sort of what I was wondering. Again, we just need all the facts here to know what really happened instead of immediately implying that the new fork doesn't help, that there's a major design flaw, that the pilot just screwed up, etc.
 
It was a non-paved surface. I avoid those which should greatly reduce the odds of this happening to my 6A.
 
I wonder if he debated whether to bust out the windscreen or the canopy?
 
Some more info and my concerns FWIW....

It is a 7A.

It had the Nosewheel upgrade.

Its a grass/gravel strip.

He was landing and (see Mick's comments above) and apparently he may have been hot and subsequently braked heavily.

He smashed the canopy with his feet to get out.....apparently.

Very minor injuries - luckily.

He is now another 7A shattered man (i dont believe an A has been nosed over by a woman yet.....).

OK....so the debate continues (Mick - see above - will give me stick over these comments).......

I am building a 7. No nosewheel for me. I will be flying in and out of more grass and/or gravel strips than sealed ones (this is common downunder).

I am not here to argue whether or not a 7 or 7A is better.

What I do want to say (and many of you are probably thinking it....) is that the if I owned a 7A (or 6A or 8A) I would be seriously concerned about the nosegear in consideration of the number incidents that have now occurred. Is it really acceptable to be lining up on final and focusing on trying to pinpoint the smoothest part of the runway for touchdown rather than focusing on more important issues such as "flying the plane". The concern will become a distraction....point being that every pilot should develop "confidence" in their aircraft.

The now arguably large number of similar incidents undermines confidence.

I reckon the "A" fraternity should put pressure on Vans to appropriately rectify this problem. OK so we are building EX's and it is unlikely they will provide all "A" owners with new nosewheel gear and associated engine mount to make the problem go away but ALL future "A" owners builders should expect something adequate for the job.

Even offering an upgrade option would be a good start......

My 2 cents worth.

PS I still love VANS, RV's and everything that goes with the company and the associated fraternity but it would be dissapointing to think that a serious injury or death would need to occur to result in change.....

OK - start throwing vegetables at me......

Cheers

JON.
 
Different RV for Different Folks

I am not here to argue whether or not a 7 or 7A is better.

One is not better then the other, they are just different. You can't say the 8 is better then the 7 or the 10 is better then the 12. They are different. Know the advantages, disadvantages, limitations (to you and how you fly) of the model you have.
 
I am building a 7. No nosewheel for me. I will be flying in and out of more grass and/or gravel strips than sealed ones (this is common downunder).

Then put larger tires and a high wing on it; and expect lower airspeeds. :) RV's do have a tendency to get beat up a bit with gravel. These are not exactly the perfect "outback" planes...

And yes, there is a pun there, but we have the Utah Outback too! :)

L.Adamson -- I'm thinking one of the Cub clones or a Aviat Husky
 
Canopy not viable.

I wonder if he debated whether to bust out the windscreen or the canopy?

From personal experience, the airplane comes to rest on the cowl and canopy (and vertical stabilizer). Very, very little room to go "out the front". I kicked out the side just like this poor bloke.
 
a models on non-hard surface

"The now arguably large number of similar incidents undermines confidence." does anyone know how many "a" models have went on their back because of the nosewheel?
 
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9A front gear revisited

That was my 9A that bent the nose gear last summer. I was ON THE RUNWAY, slowing down. The front wheel was also on the runway but as I crossed an intersecting runway, the front wheel tracked a different direction.

The front wheel then knuckled under and continued to bend till we slid to a stop. I used directional braking to keep us in the center of the runway. No injuries to me or the wife but there were lots of injuries to my favorite project. Two months of work followed, 7 days per week & $7,200 for a new crankshaft (even though the engine was at idle the crank bent), prop repair and lots more, and the bird was back in the air. I’ve added 62 hours since then.

FYI, I had the new style landing gear. Hardness was checked on the old gear and it met the spec. The next two photos should break your heart.


bentgear.jpg



wornfork.jpg



The tire had NO scuff marks on it whatsoever. The wheel simply turned to the side and bent over.

Other people may be more adventuresome than I am, but here are my NEW RULES for this airplane:

1) Breakout is checked frequently or should I say constantly. It’s at the prescribed number or higher. Every time the tow bar is used, I am manually sensing break out force plus I check it with the spring device.

2) Front wheel pressure is ALWAYS 30lbs. An under inflated tire adds drag to a system which (IMO) is woefully inadequate.

3) There is a steel spacer inside the front wheel to insure the bearing races remain apart. The front wheel spins freely.



nosewheelspacer.jpg



4) On takeoff, the front wheel leaves the ground as soon as possible. On landing, it comes down as late as possible. Observe the “1.3 over stall” rule, add speed for gusts, but no more than absolutely required. Let the wing slow the airplane, I can land without using brakes 90% of the time. If the winds are too strong, go somewhere else or don’t leave the ground. GET-HOME-ITIS is as dumb as running out of fuel.
5) Taxi very slowly. My buddy Chet video taped the oscillation of the front gear (fore and aft) & it’s downright scary. Taxiing fast on a rough surface is nuts.
6) NEVER fly without the front wheel pant installed. Increase the layers of fiberglass at the bottom of the front wheel pant so it can serve as a skid plate should the front wheel track a ground imperfection or get stuck in a hole. Better for the front pant to give its life than break the airplane.
7) Personally, I will NEVER land or takeoff from a dirt/grass strip. The first time I land on grass will be because the engine croaked. If the mission changes, so will the choice of airplane.


Everything in life has trade offs. I accept these self imposed limitations but on the flip side, I flew home yesterday & observed 152kts groundspeed at 6.9 gph on autogas.


takeoff1small.jpg



That photo serves as my computer desktop image. It makes me smile every morning but also reminds me of the rules.
 
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I use and will continue to use grass strips if I know the condition they're in. Heck, some of the sod strips around here rival paved surfaces in terms of smoothness and uniformity of the surface.

Here's one of me and Vic Syracuse at Mallard's Landing south of Atlanta. Beautiful strip! Yes, Vic is based there....in his -7A.
2008-09-27.2222.jpeg
 
Trying to get a list together.

Berry,

Is your N-number N557BD?

How much total time and time on type do you have?

I am trying to get a list together of similar incidents/accidents. I already found 34 so far!!

Ragards, Tonny.
 
The notion that -As are accidents waiting to happen is hardly objective. I just keep mine off of unimproved landing strips. While it does mean some strips are off limits, I doubt many tail dragger pilots have been more places than I have.

Personally, I would be more concerned if my plane and an auto engine or used two mags of a certain lineage.
 
The notion that -As are accidents waiting to happen is hardly objective. I just keep mine off of unimproved landing strips. While it does mean some strips are off limits, I doubt many tail dragger pilots have been more places than I have.

Personally, I would be more concerned if my plane and an auto engine or used two mags of a certain lineage.
The funny thing about this is when I told my EAA chapter that I was going to build my -9 as a taildragger there were prophecies of ground loops and nose overs. In the six years I've been involved with RV's, four building and two flying, I have only heard of a few instances of RV tail dragger ground loops and nose overs.

I do wonder if that is because those things are expected and don't get the publicity that an "A" gets when it goes over.

I'm not trying to start a NS vs TW debate here but I am wondering if the frequency of tip-over's is blown out of proportion.

PS. Ron, I hear you on those magnetos, I wouldn't want to fly behind those unreliable antiques either. I much prefer modern electronic ignition. ;)
 
A senator will make the news...

..... In the six years I've been involved with RV's, four building and two flying, I have only heard of a few instances of RV tail dragger ground loops and nose overs.....

....if he ground loops a RV.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/arti...articleid=061007_Ne_A1_Inhof22161&archive=yes

I guess the rest of us just don't make the papers unless some spectacular pictures, preferably with flames, are involved....:)

PS Senator Inhofe is very pro-GA
 
A VIOLATION OF THE FARS?

....if he ground loops a RV.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/arti...articleid=061007_Ne_A1_Inhof22161&archive=yes

I guess the rest of us just don't make the papers unless some spectacular pictures, preferably with flames, are involved....:)

PS Senator Inhofe is very pro-GA

Quote....... A veteran pilot with a commercial rating, the Oklahoma Republican said he realized there was a problem with the plane's rudder before he took off from Duncan for the flight to Tulsa on Thursday evening.

Sounds like a violation to me..............:eek:
 
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