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$1100 IFR Check - Duncan Aviation - KMKC

Xkuzme1

Well Known Member
So I was in a pinch for my IFR Transponder Static Check. I needed to get it done quickly. I called Duncan Aviation at MKC and they quoted me $450. I thought that was high, but they were close so I went ahead and paid a premium.

I got a call today telling me it would be almost $1100. Said it was 10 hours of labor because there was 1) a leak in the static system, and 2) They had to calibrate my altimeter.

First of all, even if there was a leak in my static system it should have been easy to diagnose and fix. The static system goes from the transponder, is T?d off to my GRT Efis and encoder, then goes to the back of the airplane for the static port. I could replumb the entire system in 1 hour. There are only a couple of places for a failure to occur, and they are literally 8 inches apart.

So he had to calibrate my GRT Efis. Literally that is going into the menu and turning some knobs, and couldn?t have taken more than 5 minutes.

I believe that I am full on being screwed by Duncan Aviation.

Thoughts? What would you do?

Todd
 
First, always get a quote for work to be done on your aircraft. Make sure the shop knows they are not authorized to exceed that amount without authorization.

I'd recommend politely explaining your understanding of the system and it's calibration. Ask him for a detail of the work done for those 10 hours. Basically, prove HOW it took 10 hours.
 
Did anything you signed or told them give them authorization to do any work necessary? Otherwise I'd call the manager to discuss why they performed work without approval and that any work performed without authorization was on them.
 
I would have thought maybe a charge for calibrating altimeter if it was a steam gauge but the EIFS is as simple and quick as you described.

As a reference, my IFR Pitot-static check cost $250 and he came to my hanger. There was no leak and if there was, I would have ask him that I will fix it. A couple of shops quoted me $450 and I would have needed to fly to them.
 
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Have had mine done twice $300+. One guy started on a look-see Adventure and I helped him with his issue. NEVER leave the plane.
 
Hmmmm... I didn't know there was that much vaseline available! I once heard of a cessna 150 getting an annual insp by an FBO that nearly matched the cost of the aircraft. I don't know whatever became of that. So there is a clear and concise understanding of what they can and can't do.... always something in writing for sure.

I'm not a legal person at all but.... It's my understanding that a business can charge what ever they want for their services however..... if it were to be challenged in a court of law, it is my understanding that with the proper proof, (quotes from a couple other like business that provide the same service), the judge will always find in your favor. I think you only have to pay what is considered "reasonable and customary."

I would get a couple quotes from another shop and maybe approach them with a reasonable settlement and at the same time let them know if they don't settle you'll be taking them to small claims court.
 
i've never had duncan come in at the original estimate, they try whatever they can to increase it

the best incident i had was before garmin gave you the ability to update GTN's in experimental, they tried to charge me 9 hours of labor to upgrade the software on the GTN

garmin has a block rate of 1.5hrs for it in the manual, they ended up giving me a shop credit, but not a refund

seems to be their biz model
 
Just some things to consider:
Did you stay with the airplane while the static system was tested? Even for a simple static line run from port to branches to encoder, I have found most avionics shops have no clue as to how someone ran the lines on an experimental a/c. To diagnose a leak, they start under the panel and start tracing lines as best they can until they find the leak. The altimeter is probably the first place they start because it only has the static port attachment.

The altimeter needs to match the txponder signal +/- within some number of feet which needs to match the test set. And for IFR cert, if the altimeter is off, then it gets pulled and tested separately and hopefully bench adjusted within specifications.

Do you have ADSB out? That piece of avionics drove the shops to invest in a $25,000 piece of test equipment and that drove up the price for both VFR and IFR cert testing.

And finally, if they are not familiar with the glass cockpit displays, then there is a learning curve time line that you will be paying for.
 
Do you have ADSB out? That piece of avionics drove the shops to invest in a $25,000 piece of test equipment and that drove up the price for both VFR and IFR cert testing.

First I have heard of it.
Can you give additional details regarding this?

I have coordinated the xponder certification on a bunch of ADSB equiped aircraft and there was been nothing special done beyond what had always been required by FAR 91.413.
 
So I was in a pinch for my IFR Transponder Static Check. I needed to get it done quickly. I called Duncan Aviation at MKC and they quoted me $450. I thought that was high, but they were close so I went ahead and paid a premium.

I got a call today telling me it would be almost $1100. Said it was 10 hours of labor because there was 1) a leak in the static system, and 2) They had to calibrate my altimeter.

First of all, even if there was a leak in my static system it should have been easy to diagnose and fix. The static system goes from the transponder, is T’d off to my GRT Efis and encoder, then goes to the back of the airplane for the static port. I could replumb the entire system in 1 hour. There are only a couple of places for a failure to occur, and they are literally 8 inches apart.

So he had to calibrate my GRT Efis. Literally that is going into the menu and turning some knobs, and couldn’t have taken more than 5 minutes.

I believe that I am full on being screwed by Duncan Aviation.

Thoughts? What would you do?

Todd

I would raise ****. I just got my RV-10 pitot static AND transponder check done at KBAK for 250 bucks. I have a 3 screen G3X, GTX-45R and everything is new. My buddy had his Cirrus done at another place, and they did the same thing to him about "we had to track down a static leak". I think lots of shops use this to pad the bill. Just my opinion.
 
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Hi Scott, yes I can get some additional info for you from the shop when I return from Europe towards the end of April. In the mean time, the equipment my shop uses requires both static and pitot hook ups. And this is in concert with a ADSB tester that both transmits and receives signals from the transponder.

The shop I use is an authorized FAA Repair Station, so I don't know if they are required to test differently from other shops.
 
The local guy we use around here charges more for Mode-S but never asked about ADS-B. He purchased a new fancy box a couple years ago that he said cost $15,000. I have seen him make over $5,000 a day at our field for just a few hours work so I am not feeling sorry for him.
 
Be there to watch

When I got my check done, I watched and helped. They had never done a Garmin G3X system before. They needed my help because you have to go into the configuration pages to calibrate the pitot system. I'm sure they could have done it without me, but would have spent time and money reading manuals and learning how to do it. Now that the G3X and other Garmin systems are more common I don't imagine they would need the extra time.

Bottom line for me is, I don't let anyone work on my plane unless I'm there.

Steve
 
My first check during Phase I, I had a static leak and had to pull the baggage compartment bulkhead and crawl back there to find/fix - the shop guys put a sawhorse under the tail in case I overbalanced and otherwise stood back and watched - and did NOT charge me labor for that time.

Being there in person to get it done is quite different from dropping it off to be done - you miss a lot of context in the "he said - she said". Unless you specifically say "Call me if..." then you are kind of open to extra stuff.
 
First I have heard of it.
Can you give additional details regarding this?

I have coordinated the xponder certification on a bunch of ADSB equiped aircraft and there was been nothing special done beyond what had always been required by FAR 91.413.

Most established avionics shops have test equipment to do pitot-static and transponder correlation tests... but the trick is that many of them are only able to do so on Mode A/C transponders. The switch to 1090ES changes the situation entirely, necessitating a test set capable of interpreting the Mode S data. This is a pretty expensive piece of hardware and shops are undoubtedly going to want to have their customers pay for that piece of hardware, one IFR check at a time.

For some of the high-volume shops the cost of the test equipment will be lost in the noise. For a lower-volume shop the test equipment cost will be significant on a per-aircraft basis. We've seen the same effect on mandatory annual ELT recertification costs here in Canada - 406MHz ELTs cost nearly triple what a 121.5MHz ELT costs for recertification. A big driver is the cost of the test equipment.

Still, even if the shop doubled their costs for the 24 month IFR certification it shouldn't come to $1100. That's simply abusive.

It won't hurt you to point that shop to this forum so they can see how many "never go there" recommendations are accruing against their corporate reputation.
 
There are a good number of thieves out there, the FBO's are the worst. Before I bought my D17 it was taken to ATW aviation in Marana, AZ. The owner of the D17 had died the the widow wanted to annual the plane so the estate could sell it. The plane was already in annual and in mint condition. ATW decided the widow was going to be a cash cow. They got the bill up to $18K on a mint, flying, in annual airplane. The plane was returned with half the switches marked "InOp" and the landing gear jammed and nearly destroyed. You'd think an IA and A&P would know not to install a 24 volt battery in a 12 volt aircraft. But they did anyway. Then did an illegal annual. I'm an A&P and wound up rebuilding the landing gear and repairing all the damaged parts they ruined. And, of course, removing the 24 volt battery. These people are out there, they will steal all they can from you. Notify everyone you know, post on every forum you can and even file a complaint with the FSDO. In some states a repair shop can not charge anything without a signed estimate by the customer. A good friend of mind does pitot/static (VFR/IFR/ADS-B), he charges $150, $250, $350 and this includes minor repairs and adjustments.
 
I have never done this, but one option might be to pay via CC then file a claim and see how it comes out.
 
I got a call today telling me it would be almost $1100. Said it was 10 hours of labor because there was 1) a leak in the static system, and 2) They had to calibrate my altimeter.

First of all, even if there was a leak in my static system it should have been easy to diagnose and fix. The static system goes from the transponder, is T’d off to my GRT Efis and encoder, then goes to the back of the airplane for the static port. I could replumb the entire system in 1 hour. There are only a couple of places for a failure to occur, and they are literally 8 inches apart.

So he had to calibrate my GRT Efis. Literally that is going into the menu and turning some knobs, and couldn’t have taken more than 5 minutes.

I believe that I am full on being screwed by Duncan Aviation.

Thoughts? What would you do?

Todd

Don't really want to get into this fray but the above is not reality, especially for a shop that has no idea about how your aircraft is plumbed or wired.

I know RV's inside out along with most of the avionics:

*I've spent hours tracking down and fixing static leaks on RV's.
*Calibrating the GRT can be a pain and easily take an hour for the full cal, I've done it.
*If you have a separate encoder that has to be checked separately which takes more time.

And yes test equipment costs a lot, I have about 30K invested in the stuff to do P-S and mode S transponder checks, all of which has to be calibrated every year, I don't 'pass' that cost on to the customer but I charge a fair fee for labor and the investment it takes to operate a repair station.
 
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Higginsville?

I was going to try the Avionics Lab at Higginsville (KHIG) not far from KLXT. They did a good job on a light sport (VFR only) for me for $100 but they probably don't know much about the Garmin or GRT experimental units. I would make sure that you know how to do all of the calibration programming and do the work with them.

In the end I just flew down to 52F last week and had Walt take care of it as usual. Got in a few hours of flying time and still probably spent less money (including fuel) than I would have with a local shop that is not inherently familiar with today's experimental avionics.

Andy
 
I was going to try the Avionics Lab at Higginsville (KHIG) not far from KLXT. They did a good job on a light sport (VFR only) for me for $100 but they probably don't know much about the Garmin or GRT experimental units. I would make sure that you know how to do all of the calibration programming and do the work with them.

In the end I just flew down to 52F last week and had Walt take care of it as usual. Got in a few hours of flying time and still probably spent less money (including fuel) than I would have with a local shop that is not inherently familiar with today's experimental avionics.

Andy

Higginsville Avionics did my RV-8 IFR check with a AFS 5600 and G5. He had to remove and test the G5 and did not charge more than the quoted amount ($250, I think). There was another minor adjustment that Stanton just took care of. I was there and waited for the job but wasn't needed as he figured it all out, including the AFS calibration. I was very happy with the job. There is a nice park with a lake that it is a pleasure to walk around and I made use of their WiFi to get some work done.

A very positive experience. Plus, he has a sense of humor......when I asked him why there was a few feet difference in the altimeter on the G5 and the AFS, he said that a guy with one altimeter always knows his altitude. A guy with two altimeter always wonders which is correct because the acceptable variance (just a few feet) will allow a minor difference. It caught me off guard and I thought that it was hilarious-it is losing something in the translation, I am sure.

John
RV-8
 
Plus, he has a sense of humor......when I asked him why there was a few feet difference in the altimeter on the G5 and the AFS, he said that a guy with one altimeter always knows his altitude. A guy with two altimeter always wonders which is correct because the acceptable variance (just a few feet) will allow a minor difference. It caught me off guard and I thought that it was hilarious-it is losing something in the translation, I am sure.

John
RV-8

Actually the tolerance is +/-20ft on the ground (0-1000ft) so you could see a 40ft split and everything still be within limits.
 
Actually the tolerance is +/-20ft on the ground (0-1000ft) so you could see a 40ft split and everything still be within limits.

Mine is 20 ft. tops so obviously within acceptable limits. It just provokes my mild OCD every time, though :)
 
Most established avionics shops have test equipment to do pitot-static and transponder correlation tests... but the trick is that many of them are only able to do so on Mode A/C transponders. The switch to 1090ES changes the situation entirely, necessitating a test set capable of interpreting the Mode S data. This is a pretty expensive piece of hardware and shops are undoubtedly going to want to have their customers pay for that piece of hardware, one IFR check at a time.

For some of the high-volume shops the cost of the test equipment will be lost in the noise. For a lower-volume shop the test equipment cost will be significant on a per-aircraft basis. We've seen the same effect on mandatory annual ELT recertification costs here in Canada - 406MHz ELTs cost nearly triple what a 121.5MHz ELT costs for recertification. A big driver is the cost of the test equipment.

Still, even if the shop doubled their costs for the 24 month IFR certification it shouldn't come to $1100. That's simply abusive.

It won't hurt you to point that shop to this forum so they can see how many "never go there" recommendations are accruing against their corporate reputation.

Specific testing for Mode S is not the same as specific testing for ADSB out that was previously mentioned.
The repair station we have used for many years is a very well know business here in the north west. They know what they are doing and have all of the new equipment, but they don't do anything different because an airplane is ADSB out equiped (and BTW, they don't charge $300+ to do a VFR transponder cert. either).
 
Duncan is a great place to take have your corporate jet worked on (especially if you are not writing the checks).
But an RV? I think not! Stick with a local shop that understands owner flown GA aircraft.
 
Specific testing for Mode S is not the same as specific testing for ADSB out that was previously mentioned.
The repair station we have used for many years is a very well know business here in the north west. They know what they are doing and have all of the new equipment, but they don't do anything different because an airplane is ADSB out equiped (and BTW, they don't charge $300+ to do a VFR transponder cert. either).

Scott - I believe you may have misconstrued my comments above.
To clarify... a Mode C test set often may not be able to accurately decipher the Mode C altitude transmitted by a Mode S transponder. This means that to do the IFR check on an airplane equipped with a Mode S or S/ES transponder, the shop needs to have a test set capable of "reading" Mode S replies. This does not imply any testing specific to ADSB - it solely is a function of the 24 month Pitot/Static/Transponder Correlation test. The test set has to be able to accurately decode the Mode C reported altitude. If the test set can't do that because a Mode S or Mode S/ES transponder is being tested, well, the shop will be out a bunch of cash to buy a test set that is Mode S/ES capable.
 
Scott - I believe you may have misconstrued my comments above.
To clarify... a Mode C test set often may not be able to accurately decipher the Mode C altitude transmitted by a Mode S transponder. This means that to do the IFR check on an airplane equipped with a Mode S or S/ES transponder, the shop needs to have a test set capable of "reading" Mode S replies. This does not imply any testing specific to ADSB - it solely is a function of the 24 month Pitot/Static/Transponder Correlation test. The test set has to be able to accurately decode the Mode C reported altitude. If the test set can't do that because a Mode S or Mode S/ES transponder is being tested, well, the shop will be out a bunch of cash to buy a test set that is Mode S/ES capable.

Ok
My original question earlier (the one you quoted) was related to a post saying that there was specific testing for ADSB out, so I guess that is why I didn't understand how your comment related to mine........
 
My first bill for the static - altimeter check on my RV4 was around $850. Same general story as yours. GRT Hx and Dynon D6 needed the test, there was a leak, and they spend hours tracking it down. Ended up being a cracked block on my TruTrak autopilot.

Just had it checked again last month, but this time I bought a monometer and tested it myself first. Found some leaking fittings and got it all sorted.

Test this time around was about $200 and done fast :)
 
Just had it checked again last month, but this time I bought a monometer and tested it myself first. Found some leaking fittings and got it all sorted.

This is a great idea that many would benefit from. I did similar in that I built a manometer when my RV was ready for first flight and it worked great to ensure no leaks and accuracy before I was paying someone for their time. I have used it ever since to spot check the plane and at annuals.

So far my SafeAir style static system has been leak free from the beginning. The TT AP plastic is well know for being easy to crack. I think they include warning stickers on them now.
 
I did similar in that I built a manometer when my RV was ready for first flight and it worked great to ensure no leaks and accuracy before I was paying someone for their time. I have used it ever since to spot check the plane and at annuals.

I'd like to do that on mine before I take it in for the static and transponder tests to make it easier and faster. What did you use, one of those pumps on blood pressure monitors like this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BLOOD-PRES...352121?hash=item364b776df9:g:~vMAAOSw6WleVTl~

I was thinking of using this instead. Anyone use one of these pumps?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steel-Core...251563&hash=item1ecb640d3e:g:-H0AAOSwRvdZaR8a
 
So I was in a pinch for my IFR Transponder Static Check. I needed to get it done quickly. I called Duncan Aviation at MKC and they quoted me $450. I thought that was high, but they were close so I went ahead and paid a premium.

I got a call today telling me it would be almost $1100. Said it was 10 hours of labor because there was 1) a leak in the static system, and 2) They had to calibrate my altimeter.

First of all, even if there was a leak in my static system it should have been easy to diagnose and fix. The static system goes from the transponder, is T?d off to my GRT Efis and encoder, then goes to the back of the airplane for the static port. I could replumb the entire system in 1 hour. There are only a couple of places for a failure to occur, and they are literally 8 inches apart.

So he had to calibrate my GRT Efis. Literally that is going into the menu and turning some knobs, and couldn?t have taken more than 5 minutes.

I believe that I am full on being screwed by Duncan Aviation.

Thoughts? What would you do?

Todd

Long thread and I read most of the responses.

I installed a new ADS-B out Mode S transponder and switched to my G5 for my encoder. I was quoted $400 for a full blown IFR pitot/static transponder check IAW 91.411 / 91.413 back in May 2019.

My actual bill out the door in May 2019 was $450 for everything as both G5s needed to be calibrated as a altimeter. $50 over estimate for the extra calibration work on two G5s.

I have had the full blown IFR check IAW 91.411 and 91.413 every two years going back 20-years on my RV-6. There was a new box to read the Mode S transponder and the new price was almost double what I have previously paid but I am now in a different state with a different shop doing the work.
 
I would raise ****. I just got my RV-10 pitot static AND transponder check done at KBAK for 250 bucks. I have a 3 screen G3X, GTX-45R and everything is new. My buddy had his Cirrus done at another place, and they did the same thing to him about "we had to track down a static leak". I think lots of shops use this to pad the bill. Just my opinion.

Who did you use at BAK? It?s about the same distance from the shop I?ve been using in southern Ohio, but significantly difference. Plus BAK has a much nicer restaurant too!

Thanks,
Bob
 
Recent Transponder, pitot static and altimeter calibration price in So CAl

Just had my RV 12 -24 month VFR transponder check completed. The price was going to be 140$. When he got there he asked if I had ADSB and when I replied yes he said it going to be $200. So I asked why and he said I check the accuracy of the position of your GPS. I did not know that was necessary and could not find any reg that says so. I periodically request a a ADSB test report from the FAA and it always passes. I have a Garmin GDL 82.

Another guy at the airport got an IFR check, pitot static, altimeter calibration and transponder check and the price was 460$ plus $125 per hour for any work if it doesn't pass.

Anybody have a guy require a GPS position check for ADSB?
 
Who did you use at BAK? It?s about the same distance from the shop I?ve been using in southern Ohio, but significantly difference. Plus BAK has a much nicer restaurant too!

Thanks,
Bob

Cant remember the name of the Avionics shop, but the guy's name is Andy Zeigler, at 812-372-3790. His cell is 812-344-0468. Sometimes he's hard to get a hold of.
 
Every 2 years I fly from KS down to 52F and pay Walt a visit for IFR cert. The job is done well, done right, done by a d*mn nice guy, and done at a fair price. Makes for a fun trip. Go meet DR while you're there too.

That reminds me: Walt - I need to come see you again. Hoping this virus junk gets over with soon!
 
Just had my RV 12 -24 month VFR transponder check completed. The price was going to be 140$. When he got there he asked if I had ADSB and when I replied yes he said it going to be $200. So I asked why and he said I check the accuracy of the position of your GPS. I did not know that was necessary and could not find any reg that says so. I periodically request a a ADSB test report from the FAA and it always passes. I have a Garmin GDL 82.

Another guy at the airport got an IFR check, pitot static, altimeter calibration and transponder check and the price was 460$ plus $125 per hour for any work if it doesn't pass.

Anybody have a guy require a GPS position check for ADSB?

Had mine done in January. Tech never looked at ADSb. Pretty sure there is no regulatory requirement for it to be checked by an authorized tech. If there is, I haven't heard about it.

I paid $250 for mine. I got taken in a similar incident a few years ago at Aurora airport. Though in my case it was only $200 over the quoted and agreed price. They threatened to seal the hanger and hold my plane captive if I didn't pay. And that was with me doing all of the work necessary to track down the static leak and doing the GRT calibration while the tech spun the dials. Needless to say, I shopped more carefully the second time around.

It is sad, but it seems this type of behavior is pretty standard in the certified world and most customers just accept it.

Larry
 
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Just had my RV 12 -24 month VFR transponder check completed. The price was going to be 140$. When he got there he asked if I had ADSB and when I replied yes he said it going to be $200. So I asked why and he said I check the accuracy of the position of your GPS. I did not know that was necessary and could not find any reg that says so. I periodically request a a ADSB test report from the FAA and it always passes. I have a Garmin GDL 82.

Another guy at the airport got an IFR check, pitot static, altimeter calibration and transponder check and the price was 460$ plus $125 per hour for any work if it doesn't pass.

Anybody have a guy require a GPS position check for ADSB?

No. There is no difference in transponder checks (and/or altimeter for IFR) from before ADS-B and after ADS-B. The required checks are the same and do not include any ADS-B checks. Reason being the ADS-B system automatically checks your 2020 compliant equipment multiple times a second during operation so no biannual repair station inspection is necessary. If anything is awry the FAA compliance computer in Washington DC sends the owner a letter immediately. This is the same reason that anybody can install non-transponder ADS-B without a repair station license. Big Brother is monitoring ADS-B himself and a clean PAPR report is all that is necessary. Now, if somebody installs a transponder-based ADS-B system then they need a repair station to do a 91.217 check followed by a PAPR report. If the repair station has a ramp tester that can decipher ADS-B out compliance that is strictly a convenience, especially on new installations. Don't confuse ADS-B out check with Mode S/ES transponder reply check which is required. If a repair station can check ADS-B out it just allows them to put language on a 337 or log book entry that the system is compliant before the airplane flies. Otherwise it is done after the airplane flies (PAPR).

So it is strictly an initial transponder installation or repair (91.217) or the biannual transponder (91.413), encoder and altimeter correspondence check portion (91.411) that require a repair station license to signed off the inspection. No matter whether Mode A/C or Mode S/ES. And regardless if ADS-B out equipment is installed.

The answer to, "Do you have ADS-B out"? is, "It doesn't matter. I just want a 91.413 VFR transponder check."

Your fellow was either ignorant or a crook. Or both.

Jim
 
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Butler in KC area

Butler at IXD is awesome, I had mine done for a couple of hundred last year. I did stay with the plane, and they did have to do an adjustment, but it was easy and the price was very fair. The test took about 30 minutes, and all-said 2hrs for everything with all the waiting.
 
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